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Can not shave shallow ATG without irritation - Vintage Gillette

Oh dude, my Gillette Fatboy is like a night and day difference when pitted against this tech! I can literally run my Fatboy down my face WTG on level 9 setting! There be some blade feel on MAX level 9, but used carefully, riding the bar a bit, takes down whiskers to nearly a BBS in spots of my face on the first pass!

Then I will do XTG on level 7, more whiskers removed, and doing it smoothly I might add.

Then I will follow it up with ATG on level 5, and the Fatboy just very smoothly removes the whiskers, literally the smoothest shaving razor I have in my entire arsenal, is the Gillette 195 Adjustable Fatboy from 1959 3rd quarter.

Now, you say that the heads are supposed to be the same? Well, then something went seriously wrong with the creation of my Tech, or it was damaged sometime in its life, because I can tell you right now, they both shave very different from each other. I took another closer look at the blade reveal of my Gillette Tech RED Flare Tip razor, on closer inspection, I notice ever so slight blade warp.

Let me try to explain what I mean by that. If you have a razor that has no issues, you clamped down the blade tightening the razor up all the way, and you took a look at the blade, viewing from a blade gap perspective, you should see that the blade is perfectly straight looking from left to right. However, with my tech, with blade clamped down all the way, the blade is not perfectly even straight from left to right.

I see a super slight bit of blade warping, where its a bit up and down, I don't know how else to describe it, and I don't think my pocket camera is good enough to show that level of detail. But I know there are folks who have seen this phenomenon before, and will already understand what I am talking about. So IDK, maybe thats the source that caused a true nightmare on my face to happen with the Tech razor.
Just a clarification SWCT.

The Tech is a completely different family of razor to the Red Tip. The Red Tip is part of what was called the "Super Speed Trio" of blue, plain (or black) and red tips. It is a member of the Super Speed family.

Just to clarify our discriptions for accuracy, for the benefit of new members and those unfamiliar with Gillette vintages. I'm sure you understand!
 

Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker

Likes a fat handle in his hand
Just a clarification SWCT.

The Tech is a completely different family of razor to the Red Tip. The Red Tip is part of what was called the "Super Speed Trio" of blue, plain (or black) and red tips. It is a member of the Super Speed family.

Just to clarify our discriptions for accuracy, for the benefit of new members. I'm sure you understand!

Oh OK, I thought they were classified as the same, and just had two names to classify the series. It just shows that there is already confusion on the site, since I got effectively confused. Glad we have a vintage buff like yourself to set us straight. Better that then living it ignorance. I know, Cipher felt that ignorance was bliss, and look where they got him, living in an artificial world, just cause he could could taste steak that wasn't real. Better to live in reality I say!

The Matrix GIF
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
These TTO design seems to have a fixed and quite narrow angle.

Not all Gillette TTO's are created equally. There are different generations, with a progression to becoming milder with the later versions.

My D2 SS.

D2SS.jpg


Compared to my Gillette Regent Tech, the first generation of Gillette TTO with a safety bar.

Regent.jpg


Notice the shape of the safety bars. The blade exposure difference is obvious. That Regent has slightly more blade exposure than either my Fatip Grande or my R41. The Regent is a handful but is capable of extremely close shaves.

I also found a difference between my D2 SS and a made in England Gillette Flare Tip Rocket. I couldnt see any differences like the above two comparisons but the British Gillette TTO's are a different animal. Unlike my D2 SS, with the Flare Tip Rocket I could shave ATG first pass with a more neutral angle but as you've found, the amount of pressure applied is critical.

There’s a huge subjectivity when people say “no pressure” and I think it could be misleading sometimes.

I believe it is because it was to me when I first started. You cant shave with no pressure, there is always going to be some. Where that pressure is applied, is what matters. Any pressure applied should never be onto the blades edge. The only pressure needed on the blade edge is enough to keep it in contact and cutting, no more. When shaving steeply, the pressure should be on the safety bar. When shaving shallow, on the cap. Never the edge.

See the post below and the quoted post in it.

d8d9759d79f476d9249a1ec44a2d1436dd5a124c882464e2e36c07b94997499d.jpg


Wow. I'm a bit stunned tbh.

You should make a thread titled "How to Shave with a Gillette NEW SC Without a Blade!" because thats exactly what it felt like.

Shaving like that is something like a "Life Hack". I didnt have to change the angle much and once I was there just a simple grip change on the razor and I was in business. I found the change in pressure I needed to apply more difficult to maintain than the angle. I didnt feel the blade at all and honestly was stunned to end up with one of, if not the most comfortable, BBS shaves I've ever had, albeit with one tiny weeper from the difference in pressure required, which was slightly more for me. I cant say I felt the blade at all other than giving myself that one small weeper. Not feeling the blade like that and hearing the stubble being cut instead of both threw me off, but I'm onto ya now ;)

For all you people that already do this, laugh if you must, but this is exactly the type of information that needs to be more mainstream. That one simple adjustment of technique, once explained and understood, can save some people, such as myself, a lot of blood, irritation and misery lol.

That was the first shave where an extremely shallow angle worked for me and I've used DE's like that ever since.

My favourite DE is a Fatip Grande. Lots of blade exposure in a rigid design. I can, quite easily, shave directly ATG at 70+ hours growth with it and either a Gillette Yellow or Polsilver blade. The most comfortable way for me to have that shave is extremely shallow. In the picture below you'll see the green lines.

Grande.Pressure.Point.JPG


Thats the area of the cap I apply all the pressure, which can be considerable. When I do that, I create a wave of skin ahead of the blade that rises to meet the edge. I had an issue at the right corner of my mouth shaving like that. I solved that and explained it below.

You might try stretching your skin a bit tighter. Razors blades are linear and flat. They like to shave a flat linear surface. Assuming you're using a rigid design and a sharp blade think of the razor as a wood plane and your skin the surface the plane is sliding over. One high spot and off it comes, a weeper.

The other thing I've learned is that no matter how little pressure you apply to your skin, there will be a 'wave' of skin ahead of the blade. It may be very small and quite likely is judging from the size of weepers that are occurring, but they can happen because that 'wave' has no distance to propagate into. The more pressure used, the taller that wave ahead of the blade becomes and the larger, and deeper, that weeper could be.

Think about the below pic and how waves propagate. The razor starting to move top left instigating that movement. The blue and/or red waves would be your skin surface ahead of the razor from the pressure applied. When those waves can no longer travel, they bunch up, you shave into and over them and plane off the tops creating a weeper.

400px-Seismic_wave_prop_mine.gif


This is why I was always getting a weeper right side of my mouth. The same spot every time. I'd be stroking from my ear towards the corner of my mouth. A wave of skin ahead of the razor and blade, and when I'd get to the corner of my mouth, that wave had no where to go, bunched up and I'd plane the top of that wave off just a tiny bit and get a weeper.

To overcome that I stretch my skin tighter and shave in a slightly different direction. Either slightly up or slightly down when I get to the same spot, but never straight into the corner of my mouth anymore. That wave needs a direction to travel in, so I gave it one. No more weeper there.

I can get weepers over my swirls as well with too steep an angle using my Grande. The stubble there can be difficult to cut and its quite dense. The Grande has generous blade exposure and when using a steep angle over those two areas I can actually feel the blade edge flexing against the resistance. The solution to that for me was a shallower angle so the blade edge would meet that resistance more squarely forcing the blade into the stubble instead of imparting flex to the edge. In essence, using a shallower angle to make the blade edge more rigid.

Shaving shallow over those two areas now with the same blade that would give me a weeper with a steep angle, wipes that stubble off like it was never there with a shallower angle.

Hydrodynamics and wave propagation in relation to shaving, who'd a thunk it! lol

Done properly, I feel nothing but the cap sliding over my skin. Too much pressure and you know instantly. The natural thing to do when that happens is to release pressure, as soon as you do, because of the angle being used, the blades edge can be as much as 1/4" above the skin. To little pressure and the blade wont engage and cut. However, at that angle, I feel nothing and hear very little.

In this picture you can see the angle of the edge in relation to the red line which would be the level of my skin with the cap pushed into it.

Grande.Angle.JPG


Now back to the post above with the quote by @rabidus where he says it will slice more than scrape. This is why I dont hear anything. The other aspect of using that angle is, because the Fatip has such generous blade exposure while being a very rigid design, used steeply, the very edge can flex and cause me weepers. At the angle I use, the edge meets the resistance in such a way no flex is imparted to the edge. This is why I find the Fatip so easy to use directly ATG.

When using the milder Gillette TTO's that have negative blade exposure, dont be afraid of increasing pressure but be very aware of where that pressure is applied. Done properly, there should be very little pressure of your skin against the blade edge but enough pressure on the doors to make the skin rise to meet the edge. The milder the razor, (the less blade exposure a design has), the more difficult that becomes. I generally use my TTO's steep. The only exception is my Regent.

Taking that up another notch would be my GEM MMOC. GEM blades are basically twice as thick as DE blades and the increased rigidity because of that is instantly apparent. The MMOC easily has twice the blade exposure of my Grande. Combined with the added blade stability the thicker SE blade offers and the blade exposure and head design of the GEM razors, shaving extremely shallow can be simple and extremely effective.

I didnt record my last shave here, but it was Monday evening or night. I dont remember.

MMOC/PTFE for its 4th shave.

WK.

Maggard Synthetic.

~100 hours since last shave. I dont think it would matter if it was around 200 hours.

Single buffing pass ATG. One clean up. The MMOC is all business and this was business as usual.

Nice comfy BBS. What more could be asked for.

Shaving extremely shallow seems like a foreign concept but once you get the hang of it, you might be amazed how easily you can actually shave while doing virtually no damage to your skin. Bearing in mind I shaved for two years straight before I got to that level with the MMOC. It was a long road but the payoff was worth it.
 
Oh dude, my Gillette Fatboy is like a night and day difference when pitted against this tech! I can literally run my Fatboy down my face WTG on level 9 setting! There be some blade feel on MAX level 9, but used carefully, riding the bar a bit, takes down whiskers to nearly a BBS in spots of my face on the first pass!

Then I will do XTG on level 7, more whiskers removed, and doing it smoothly I might add.

Then I will follow it up with ATG on level 5, and the Fatboy just very smoothly removes the whiskers, literally the smoothest shaving razor I have in my entire arsenal, is the Gillette 195 Adjustable Fatboy from 1959 3rd quarter.

Now, you say that the heads are supposed to be the same? Well, then something went seriously wrong with the creation of my Tech, or it was damaged sometime in its life, because I can tell you right now, they both shave very different from each other. I took another closer look at the blade reveal of my Gillette Tech RED Flare Tip razor, on closer inspection, I notice ever so slight blade warp.

Let me try to explain what I mean by that. If you have a razor that has no issues, you clamped down the blade tightening the razor up all the way, and you took a look at the blade, viewing from a blade gap perspective, you should see that the blade is perfectly straight looking from left to right. However, with my tech, with blade clamped down all the way, the blade is not perfectly even straight from left to right.

I see a super slight bit of blade warping, where its a bit up and down, I don't know how else to describe it, and I don't think my pocket camera is good enough to show that level of detail. But I know there are folks who have seen this phenomenon before, and will already understand what I am talking about. So IDK, maybe thats the source that caused a true nightmare on my face to happen with the Tech razor.
Assuming you meant red tip instead of tech like already said, it’s amazing how different razors with the same head style can shave so differently! That’s a puzzle for sure…
Not all Gillette TTO's are created equally. There are different generations, with a progression to becoming milder with the later versions.

My D2 SS.

View attachment 1550924

Compared to my Gillette Regent Tech, the first generation of Gillette TTO with a safety bar.

View attachment 1550925

Notice the shape of the safety bars. The blade exposure difference is obvious. That Regent has slightly more blade exposure than either my Fatip Grande or my R41. The Regent is a handful but is capable of extremely close shaves.

I also found a difference between my D2 SS and a made in England Gillette Flare Tip Rocket. I couldnt see any differences like the above two comparisons but the British Gillette TTO's are a different animal. Unlike my D2 SS, with the Flare Tip Rocket I could shave ATG first pass with a more neutral angle but as you've found, the amount of pressure applied is critical.



I believe it is because it was to me when I first started. You cant shave with no pressure, there is always going to be some. Where that pressure is applied, is what matters. Any pressure applied should never be onto the blades edge. The only pressure needed on the blade edge is enough to keep it in contact and cutting, no more. When shaving steeply, the pressure should be on the safety bar. When shaving shallow, on the cap. Never the edge.

See the post below and the quoted post in it.



That was the first shave where an extremely shallow angle worked for me and I've used DE's like that ever since.

My favourite DE is a Fatip Grande. Lots of blade exposure in a rigid design. I can, quite easily, shave directly ATG at 70+ hours growth with it and either a Gillette Yellow or Polsilver blade. The most comfortable way for me to have that shave is extremely shallow. In the picture below you'll see the green lines.

View attachment 1550930

Thats the area of the cap I apply all the pressure, which can be considerable. When I do that, I create a wave of skin ahead of the blade that rises to meet the edge. I had an issue at the right corner of my mouth shaving like that. I solved that and explained it below.



Done properly, I feel nothing but the cap sliding over my skin. Too much pressure and you know instantly. The natural thing to do when that happens is to release pressure, as soon as you do, because of the angle being used, the blades edge can be as much as 1/4" above the skin. To little pressure and the blade wont engage and cut. However, at that angle, I feel nothing and hear very little.

In this picture you can see the angle of the edge in relation to the red line which would be the level of my skin with the cap pushed into it.

View attachment 1550932

Now back to the post above with the quote by @rabidus where he says it will slice more than scrape. This is why I dont hear anything. The other aspect of using that angle is, because the Fatip has such generous blade exposure while being a very rigid design, used steeply, the very edge can flex and cause me weepers. At the angle I use, the edge meets the resistance in such a way no flex is imparted to the edge. This is why I find the Fatip so easy to use directly ATG.

When using the milder Gillette TTO's that have negative blade exposure, dont be afraid of increasing pressure but be very aware of where that pressure is applied. Done properly, there should be very little pressure of your skin against the blade edge but enough pressure on the doors to make the skin rise to meet the edge. The milder the razor, (the less blade exposure a design has), the more difficult that becomes. I generally use my TTO's steep. The only exception is my Regent.

Taking that up another notch would be my GEM MMOC. GEM blades are basically twice as thick as DE blades and the increased rigidity because of that is instantly apparent. The MMOC easily has twice the blade exposure of my Grande. Combined with the added blade stability the thicker SE blade offers and the blade exposure and head design of the GEM razors, shaving extremely shallow can be simple and extremely effective.



Shaving extremely shallow seems like a foreign concept but once you get the hang of it, you might be amazed how easily you can actually shave while doing virtually no damage to your skin. Bearing in mind I shaved for two years straight before I got to that level with the MMOC. It was a long road but the payoff was worth it.
Wow thank you so much for that amazing detailed info and explanation.

I’ll try to incorporate that in my following shaves for sure!

This pressure thing is a pain. Today I felt like I overdid it. It glided better but skin feels a little raw now.

Maybe I should give it a couple o days and avoid shaving on top of an already tender skin.

It’s very difficult to see improvement going over damaged tissue.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
Wow thank you so much for that amazing detailed info and explanation.

I’ll try to incorporate that in my following shaves for sure!

This pressure thing is a pain. Today I felt like I overdid it. It glided better but skin feels a little raw now.

Maybe I should give it a couple o days and avoid shaving on top of an already tender skin.

It’s very difficult to see improvement going over damaged tissue.

You're welcome.

Its difficult to explain but actually fairly easy to put into action. It just goes against what may seem 'normal' but the idea is to find the angle that is the most comfortable for you. Not me, not him, you. There are no rules about angles or pressures. You can use a razor at any angle the blade will cut with.

When I had irritation and it could be pretty bad, I kept my shaves easy until it cleared up. A single pass WTG shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra is easily a SAS and the only one that knows its not BBS is me.

Some of the best advice I was ever given was "Just shave." Keep it simple, shave for comfort first, and all the rest will fall into place in its own time.
 
You're welcome.

Its difficult to explain but actually fairly easy to put into action. It just goes against what may seem 'normal' but the idea is to find the angle that is the most comfortable for you. Not me, not him, you. There are no rules about angles or pressures. You can use a razor at any angle the blade will cut with.

When I had irritation and it could be pretty bad, I kept my shaves easy until it cleared up. A single pass WTG shave with my Grande and a Derby Extra is easily a SAS and the only one that knows its not BBS is me.

Some of the best advice I was ever given was "Just shave." Keep it simple, shave for comfort first, and all the rest will fall into place in its own time.
Perfectly said. That WTG only for a few days might be the best strategy now.

Not shaving is a b… so that WTG only should be a middle ground.

Thank you once again for all info provided.
 
Hello Alex!

Your experience is pretty much echoing my experience as well. My review bellow...

So many people love these razors and absolutely rave about them. With the Fatboy, I understand, I echo the raves and positive waves. But with these Tech's, not so much. I don't know what it is about these Tech's, but they just simply do not work out for me, which is sad. While it is indeed true, that its never fun hearing about someones negative experience with a razor, it is however nice to have ones own experience confirmed.

This is my Gillette RED Flare SuperSpeed Tech, whats yours look like?

View attachment 1550880
Mine pretty much requires a replating/restoring, will have to send it in to get BRG to do his magic, but thats pretty much a plan for next year.
@Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker here it is.

3AAA293C-47A5-46F8-AC27-B97A59CBAAE2.jpeg
9BBA132E-2B55-4ED4-B2C2-C5B42876639D.jpeg
2B9640F1-4FF8-4710-B1E5-8C30669675F1.jpeg
 

musicman1951

three-tu-tu, three-tu-tu
For what it's worth: I just returned from a nearly 3 week vacation. At home I use a Wolfman with a fairly steep angle. When traveling I had an ATT Windsor - a very nice razor - but noticed some discomfort. I discovered that I needed a more shallow angle with that razor for the same shave result.

I don't know that it's necessarily true with every razor, but it would not surprise me to find that many require some adjustment to shaving angle to produce the same quality shave.
 
For what it's worth: I just returned from a nearly 3 week vacation. At home I use a Wolfman with a fairly steep angle. When traveling I had an ATT Windsor - a very nice razor - but noticed some discomfort. I discovered that I needed a more shallow angle with that razor for the same shave result.

I don't know that it's necessarily true with every razor, but it would not surprise me to find that many require some adjustment to shaving angle to produce the same quality shave.
Yep, for sure.

That angle adjustment is what’s getting me at the ATG pass with these vintage Gillettes.

I’ll get there, it’s not that clear as with my modern razors, but I’ll get there.

Damn you Gillettes, I hate you, but I love you. 😂
 

Star_Wahl_Clipper_Treker

Likes a fat handle in his hand
Yep, for sure.

That angle adjustment is what’s getting me at the ATG pass with these vintage Gillettes.

I’ll get there, it’s not that clear as with my modern razors, but I’ll get there.

Damn you Gillettes, I hate you, but I love you. 😂

If you can figure out the best working angle for going ATG with a Gillette RED Flare Tip SuperSpeed, then please by all means let me know. Cause I surely couldn't figure it out, sucker just seemed like it didn't want to cut, missing hairs consistently, and refusing to slice them away, and in the end, turning my face into a horror show, that looks like a 15 year old kid suffering major acne disorder!

I tell ya what, after that nightmare I went through this week, I aint using that razor again until I get it restored next year, and maybe I will give it a go with another one. But for right now, its staying locked up in the case until further notice. Your Gillette RED tip looks like its in better shape then mine for sure! I wonder if Chris at BRG is able to also correct issues with razors.

Like for example, if he finds issues with the way the razor clamps down on the blade, or something is bent, or anything like that. I wonder if he can fix those issues beyond simply re-plating? Cause he's who I plan to send the razor to sometime next year. Anyways, thanks for sharing Alex!
 
...I wonder if Chris at BRG is able to also correct issues with razors.

Like for example, if he finds issues with the way the razor clamps down on the blade, or something is bent, or anything like that. I wonder if he can fix those issues beyond simply re-plating? Cause he's who I plan to send the razor to sometime next year. Anyways, thanks for sharing Alex!

I think Chris offers two services: tune-up and re-plating.

The tune-up is a cleaning, functional check and adjustment.

A re-plate includes the tune-up.

At least that is my understanding, but I am sure Chris will be happy to explain it to you if you contact him.
 
If you can figure out the best working angle for going ATG with a Gillette RED Flare Tip SuperSpeed, then please by all means let me know. Cause I surely couldn't figure it out, sucker just seemed like it didn't want to cut, missing hairs consistently, and refusing to slice them away, and in the end, turning my face into a horror show, that looks like a 15 year old kid suffering major acne disorder!

I tell ya what, after that nightmare I went through this week, I aint using that razor again until I get it restored next year, and maybe I will give it a go with another one. But for right now, its staying locked up in the case until further notice. Your Gillette RED tip looks like its in better shape then mine for sure! I wonder if Chris at BRG is able to also correct issues with razors.

Like for example, if he finds issues with the way the razor clamps down on the blade, or something is bent, or anything like that. I wonder if he can fix those issues beyond simply re-plating? Cause he's who I plan to send the razor to sometime next year. Anyways, thanks for sharing Alex!
I will, for sure!

I skipped today’s shave instead of doing just WTG/XTG pass. My face needs a rest after so many not so good shaves.

It’s always good to check for alignment issues. I don’t believe both of mine have any issue, as they share the same feel ATG.

I’ll keep at it… we’ll see…
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
The Gillette TTO's are pretty easy to make straight if they're out of line somehow but I doubt many are. The older ones without end caps that have exposed end links are more difficult because the end caps are soldered on and you cant see if the end links are square and true without popping the caps off.

This thread might give you an idea what to look for.

 
I will get tarred a feathered for saying this...I have much better shaves with the majority of my vintage razors with a bit of pressure.
I believe you.

Based on what I’ve noticed on my last shaves, I totally see your point.

More testing to come of course, but I see some truth in that…

With a Rockwell for exemple, I barely touch the skin. I tried to do that with those vintages, it was horrible.
 

Esox

I didnt know
Staff member
With a Rockwell for exemple, I barely touch the skin. I tried to do that with those vintages, it was horrible.

I'm guessing it was a bit tuggy. Try with the safety bar firmly against your skin and rotate the handle until the blade starts to cut. Rotate small amounts in the same direction until that tugginess goes away while keeping skin comfort as your main priority. If the tugging doesnt stop, try a different blade. I believe blades to be the most personal aspect of the entire equation.

"After discovering in his test lab that shavers could not tell the difference in blade sharpness, he was responsible for break-thru research that determined that blade sharpness was not a critical factor in receiving a good shave; rather a reduction in drag by hair clinging to the blade causing pulling was needed. This Drag Theory lead to the development of coated razor blades and specifically the Organosiloxane Gel coated Super Blue Blade (1959)."

When you find the right combination of angle, pressure, blade and soap, the Gillette SS and Rocket razors are capable of a very nice shave.
 
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