Can honing with alternating toe and heal leading strokes lead to micro chipping?

[JPO]

This dovo razor was honed with alternating heel and toe leading x-strokes. The shave was acceptable, but not as smooth as i like it to be. Under a 120x loupe this razor looks good, nice and uniform, but did not feel right. On closer inspection it seems like when the scratches go approx 45 deg in each direction, crossing almost perpendicular small microchips can form.
The picture is taken with a simple veho 400 microscope. I have been relying on my loupe lately, but this is really not visible even at 120x.
Here is probably an example of not spending enough time on each progression. The deepest scratches is from a 4k gouken, and the more shallow scratches are from a Naniwa fuji. The razor was finished on a jnat with slurry.
Have anyone else experienced this?
I guess i will be more careful with the direction of my strokes from now on. Stick to the basics and eliminate variables.

 

[Herrenberg]

To me those 4k scratches look way too deep. Too much pressure, maybe? Or maybe needs more strokes at the end of each stone at almost no pressure.

This isn't just a "things look different under a microscope" observation; I use mine all the time, so that's my comparison point.

I don't know what to make of my other observation, that those deep scratches look farther apart than I'd expect.

 

[*stefan*]

Never tested toe leading.
How does it look if only doing either heel or toe leading?

 

[stone and strop]

Those scratches are VERY deep. Way too much pressure.
I've never been a fan of circles or varying strokes in all directions.
Keep it simple, it will be easier to deduce problems as well.

 

[JPO]

To me those 4k scratches look way too deep. Too much pressure, maybe? Or maybe needs more strokes at the end of each stone at almost no pressure.

This isn't just a "things look different under a microscope" observation; I use mine all the time, so that's my comparison point.

I don't know what to make of my other observation, that those deep scratches look farther apart than I'd expect.

This was just a test to see what happens if you create scratches that go in both directions like this. You can end up, if you are not careful with micro chips. I was also playing with external light sources and post processing filters to highlight the defects.
I usually stick to x strokes, and will continue to.
I have seen some youtube videos where alternating half strokes, heel and toe leading are used.
I do not think this does the edge any good. You will most likely end up with problems during the finishing stage.

 

[JPO]

Those scratches are VERY deep. Way too much pressure.
I've never been a fan of circles or varying strokes in all directions.
Keep it simple, it will be easier to deduce problems as well.

Not much pressure is used, just a little torque. The defects and scratches are highlighted with lighting and filters afterwards. Again this was not an attempt at creating the perfect edge.
I am also not a big fan of circles.

 

[LJS]

I don’t mean to sound contrary, but I don’t think that is a fair conclusion.

You have other issues going on with both your bevel and the edge and maybe even your scope lighting.

I have used alternating scratch patterns before just to see if I had taken out the previous stage. This would be a perfect example of not honing out the previous stage before progressing. I would look at that and see I have work to still do.

 

[JPO]

I don’t mean to sound contrary, but I don’t think that is a fair conclusion.

You have other issues going on with both your bevel and the edge and maybe even your scope lighting.

I have used alternating scratch patterns before just to see if I had taken out the previous stage. This would be a perfect example of not honing out the previous stage before progressing. I would look at that and see I have work to still do.

You are probably right. If the scratches from each step is completely removed/replaced by the finest grit it should not be an issue. However, if you move on/jump to the next stone to early you need to go back. The question is when do you move on to the next grit level?
Can these cross hatch scratches become a problem later if you don‘t hit the mark?

 

[DrStrange]

This was just a test to see what happens if you create scratches that go in both directions like this. You can end up, if you are not careful with micro chips. I was also playing with external light sources and post processing filters to highlight the defects.
I usually stick to x strokes, and will continue to.
I have seen some youtube videos where alternating half strokes, heel and toe leading are used.
I do not think this does the edge any good. You will most likely end up with problems during the finishing stage.

I have tried something like what you've tried,
instead alternating between heel leading,
and heel toe even.

Based on the way the shave felt, I decided to go back to heel leading only.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Uhh those aren't 4k scratches. Those are 1.2 at most and honestly looked like ~220s to my eye. Those are huuuuuuge.

 

[JPO]

Uhh those aren't 4k scratches. Those are 1.2 at most and honestly looked like ~220s to my eye. Those are huuuuuuge.

This razor have newer seen any stone lower than 4k, and these are not from the factory gringing.
Just imagine how 220 would look like.
In the first image i have palm stropped the razor with oil to increase the contrast. In the next photo the oil is removed and a slightly different angle is used. The lighting is also a little different.

 

[lightfoot]

One thing you can do with the finishing stone is lead with the heal on one side of the blade and lead with the toe on the other. Just keep it the same on each respective side without switching the pattern and it can make a nice edge.

 

[JPO]

The thread was started just to ask the question what the effect of using these alternating strokes can have, if any. In general, cross hatch sanding other materials is an effective method.
It is really hard to tell from an cheap microscopes like this what is going on after 8k, but can be helpful during the ground work.

Here is a full progression using the Naniwa Gouken 4k, 8k followed by two Jnat tomo dilutions, ending with slurry.
The edge was killed on the side of a stone and brought back. Only heel leading x-strokes was used.
From previous experience this should shave just fine. I have not tested the edge yet.
The 8k Fuji does not seem to add that much after the 4k. Maybe i can skip the 8k and add a nagura (Mejiro) before the tomo slurry?

I will be getting some shapton gs stones this week. I am planning to test if the 3k to 6k, followed by jnat yields different results. Have anyone used a similar progression using the shapton gs stones?

4k

8k Fuji

Jnat first tomo slurry (Nakayama asagi)

Second tomo slurry on an hard jnat (shobudani asagi). Finished on light slurry (no stropping)

 

[SliceOfLife]

You sure the first post is the right picture?

I mean the scratches going one direction are nearly larger than the GRINDING scars above the bevel (which I'd guess are 120grit). I've circled what I'm talking about and squared off the largest grinding scar.

Some of those scratches are maybe 7-8% the bevel depth in thickness. Even if that's a wisp of a bevel, we're talking ~12-25 micron on the scratches or ballpark 600-800grit.

 

[JPO]

You sure the first post is the right picture?

I mean the scratches going one direction are nearly larger than the GRINDING scars above the bevel (which I'd guess are 120grit). I've circled what I'm talking about and squared off the largest grinding scar.

Some of those scratches are maybe 7-8% the bevel depth in thickness. Even if that's a wisp of a bevel, we're talking ~12-25 micron on the scratches or ballpark 600-800grit.
View attachment 1306173

The razor have been on a tsushima nagura bench stone before this. There might be some larger particles in this stone that shows up now. Maybe the one i have is more suited for knifes.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Maybe. Could also be artifacting if that's a digital scope. A lot of the time they basically guess at what to do when they add magnification... so it could be artificially blowing up the scratch pattern.

 

[Gamma]

I hone with alternating heel/toe strokes all the time, no issues.
Microchipping can/might be the result of not cleaning up the ground work fully, possibly the existence of rogue striations from a coarse stone that didn't get wiped out completely. and let's not forget micropitting, trying to use slurry on a synth over 1k, too much pressure, possibly other stuff.
Yes, when striations cross you create a new pattern at the apex, and when that pattern is even and the striations are reduced incrementally, and nearly totally with each step, then the edge refines evenly.
Not working each stage fully can leave huge weak points in the apex, which will fail.
But if the work is done well, the sawtoothed apex just gets smaller, evenly as you go, from toe to heel.
I would say there was a good bit of erratic work involved in this edge, can't begin to guess why without knowing more though. Could be anything including a stone that is very inconsistent throughout its makeup. Cheap synths from Amazon come to mind. I doubt any TBN had a hand in it, the abrasive in those stones is (usually) fairly gentle and slow, anything is possible but unless the slurry was lumpy I'd probably look elsewhere in the chain first.
Start at 1k, rebuild the edge, check the progress to see where the fail is occurring. Check all stones for flatness - I have also seen this happen on non-flat stones where the non-chamfered edges were actually a bit proud of the working surface. The effect is sorta like dragging the edge over a sharp speed-bump.

 

[eKretz]

The part about "palm-stropped with oil" caught my eye. Those "scratches" may not even be scratches at all - or may be drastically worse looking than they really ought to be. Even minute amounts of oil or grease can cause major artifacting in a scope image. If you aren't cleaning your razor before trying to image it with a scope, you should be. I clean mine with a bit of acetone before any imaging. This not only eliminates any effect from skin or honing oils but also keeps things consistent with the imaging - I know that the blades are always clean, in every image. One less variable never hurts. Rubbing alcohol should also work fine, as should a bit of dish soap.

 

[JPO]

I hone with alternating heel/toe strokes all the time, no issues.
Microchipping can/might be the result of not cleaning up the ground work fully, possibly the existence of rogue striations from a coarse stone that didn't get wiped out completely. and let's not forget micropitting, trying to use slurry on a synth over 1k, too much pressure, possibly other stuff.
Yes, when striations cross you create a new pattern at the apex, and when that pattern is even and the striations are reduced incrementally, and nearly totally with each step, then the edge refines evenly.
Not working each stage fully can leave huge weak points in the apex, which will fail.
But if the work is done well, the sawtoothed apex just gets smaller, evenly as you go, from toe to heel.
I would say there was a good bit of erratic work involved in this edge, can't begin to guess why without knowing more though. Could be anything including a stone that is very inconsistent throughout its makeup. Cheap synths from Amazon come to mind. I doubt any TBN had a hand in it, the abrasive in those stones is (usually) fairly gentle and slow, anything is possible but unless the slurry was lumpy I'd probably look elsewhere in the chain first.
Start at 1k, rebuild the edge, check the progress to see where the fail is occurring. Check all stones for flatness - I have also seen this happen on non-flat stones where the non-chamfered edges were actually a bit proud of the working surface. The effect is sorta like dragging the edge over a sharp speed-bump.

I thank you for the feedback.
I think i have found my suspect. It was one of the first stone i bought, the wasserkraft solingen 2000/6000 kombo.
This stone is really hard, and not fun to use. It was lapped with an atoma 400, and the sides were ronded. I think the 400 is a bit to rough for this stone, especially on the sides. The 6000 side is really fast, but fast and fine is a rare combination. My atoma 1200 might be more suited for lapping this stone. A little burnishing with a dressing stone might help to. I might have created a rough speed bump, as you said on the sides. One bad stroke is then all it takes to mess up the edge over a rough side.
I now have better options, så this stone will not be used for razors again. The shapton gs 6k have taken the place for the 6k grit. I really do not have time for these soaking ceramic stones.
In the right hands this stone might be good, but again i have better options to chose from.

In general i find it difficult to to feel/see when enough is enough at each grit progression. A safe way is just to spend more time at each grit, but i like to limit the amount of work and steel removed at each stage.

 

[JPO]

The part about "palm-stropped with oil" caught my eye. Those "scratches" may not even be scratches at all - or may be drastically worse looking than they really ought to be. Even minute amounts of oil or grease can cause major artifacting in a scope image. If you aren't cleaning your razor before trying to image it with a scope, you should be. I clean mine with a bit of acetone before any imaging. This not only eliminates any effect from skin or honing oils but also keeps things consistent with the imaging - I know that the blades are always clean, in every image. One less variable never hurts. Rubbing alcohol should also work fine, as should a bit of dish soap.

I have a really cheap microscope. I am looking into buying a better one, but it is not on the priority list now.
The oil seem to create a more 3d look and enhances the contrast a little. It is easier to to tell the different scratches apart. It may give some optical distortion, leading to an unrealistic image. I am not able to capture highly polished synthetic edges due to glare from the light (i am not refereeing to the photos here).
When i inspect edges i also wipe them clean with alcohol, and i probably get a more realistic picture.

I am not here to prove anything. I just want to figure things out. I rub some steel on a piece of rock. Noe one get hurt. Just a little razor burn from now and then

I do not have any honing jedi skills which enables me to feel what is going on with the edge at all the time.
I just have to make due with what i have. The microscope is just a crutch. Maybe i am over complicating things for my self.
I have shaved off coticule edges that was greate, but they did not look nice under magnification. So there is that