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Can any razor be buttery smooth?

Starting to notice micro chips in a couple spots.
Chips can be the result of a lot of things. Bad steel, for one. Another can be when deep scratches from the bevel set go all the way to the apex-- sometimes they can be obscured by your work on the next stone in the progression but then crop up on a finer stone in the form of chips. And, it can be that you have rogue grit on the finer stone. So it would be worth figuring out what the cause is here, and it may take a couple razors and a bit of time to really pin it down.
 
Onward. Move on to the 10k Yoshihiro. This is where my problems begin. Someone said that some synthetics seem to grow stuff. I’ve noticed before that random larger pieces seem to show up while honing. I thought it may be swarf or lint from a rag but I’m now thinking its releasing some grit that’s not uniform in size. Starting to notice micro chips in a couple spots. You can see them in a couple of my pictures. Tried to keep the stone as clean as possible running it under water and cleaning the blade. I think this stone may be problematic. Theory for now. After I was done on this stone I felt like the bevel looked good minus those 2 tiny chip.
This is the exact reason why I gave up on my Shapton Glass 16K for razors. I still love it as a knife deburring stone. It pained me to reject any Shapton Glass stone for any purpose, because they are my favorite synthetics by far, and the 1000 is my beloved bevel-setter, and I have spent many happy hours on many stones in the line, but when grains of sand show up during honing, and chips appear in the edge, yeah, I'm done. Personally, I'd move on to something else. Perhaps I should mention that the Shapton Glass (HR) 10000 is awesome in this role.

FWIW, micro chips in the edge do not affect the closeness of the shave. What they affect is comfort, and only after you've accumulated enough of them to register that slight after-shave sensation of "say, why is my skin burning, just a little."

Your chronicles are extremely interesting, and I am following every word.
 
Accidentally hit the post button, continuing…

You can see from the pics that I didn’t quite make it all the way to the toe, but it’s a small area and I don’t tend to use the very tip of the toe so I’m trying not to get hyper focused on that. You can also see a very small chip in two pics. One is close to the toe and the other at the heel. Overall it felt sharp, so I decided to test shave. Stropped it up on the hanging strop. What a difference! Very good shave. Wouldnt say it’s my best edge yet but it was very good.
If you are inclined to quest for perfection, take a close look at the third picture in your sequence. See that thin line at the edge? That's a tiny area in which the finishing stone did not reach quite all the way to the edge. Improve that situation, and your edges will get even better.
 
Just a suggestion. Hone ONE razor only. Sure, send others out, but let ONE of your razors be your sacrificial goat to the honing gods, the one you learn on. Make your mistakes, and celebrate your successes, on that one, only, until you are happy with the edge. Your progress will be faster if you work with one razor and one tool set, until you either reach a happy conclusion, or grind it down to a toothpick, one or the other.

Most of us use paste, not spray. I tried diamond spray and slurries on balsa, and they just don't work nearly as good as paste. techdiamondtools is an ebay vendor that many of us use. Read the pasted balsa strop thread. It's all in there.

You seem to be making decent progress. Soon you will be ready for a finer stone or film, or for the balsa progression.

Another suggestion that you can take or leave, your razor, and many here will disagree with me and they are not entirely wrong. But here it is. With a strongly upswept toe, it is NOT necessary to have the very tippy tip be treetopping sharp. In fact, vigorous and dedicated effort to make every last sillymeter of blade to horror movie sharpness, is misplaced and often overdone, perpetuating the issue, or even making it worse, rather than simply allowing normal honing over the next 20 or 30 years to slowly correct it. A lot of horribly abused razors are direct result of attempting to get that last bit sharp, even going so far as to duplicate the old 1930's "pigtail" style honing. You end up with a tapered blade and a useless toe and a barely salvageable razor. My feelings won't be hurt if you prefer to get it sharp end to end, but do give it some thought and do everything you do for a reason, after THINKING, instead of just because it seems the thing to do.

Swept toes are my nemesis. Before I knew much about SR’s I thought so highly of beautiful swept designs. They looked so elegant, they had to be the pinnacle of SR’s.

Now, just give me a basic straight profile, round the corner of the toe and heel (so I don’t make tiger stripes on my face), and I’m happy.
 
Take a systematic approach to learn to hone, don’t throw everything at the edge. Use the 1K, 6 and 10K and linen and leather. Eliminate the pasted strop, the Ark and ensure your leather strop is clean.

Eliminate variables. Right now, the Ark is a variable, the 10k is known grit and predictable performer, if lapped and edges beveled or rounded should produce a 10k near mirror stria free bevel and straight shaving edge.

The Torrey needs heel correction. The heel corner ends at the stabilizer causing you to hone on the stabilizer, (see wear marks, blue arrow). The spine over the stabilizer is not touching the stone, causing a wonky bevel. The razor is not sitting flat on the hone. (Note, red arrow where there is no honing wear on the spine.

The heel corner needs to be moved away from the stabilizer. Correcting the heel will allow the razor spine and bevel to sit flat on the hone and cut a more even bevel.

Once you can consistently get a shaving edge from the 10k, then experiment with the Ark and different Ark finishes to see if it will improve a 10k finish and paste. The 10k should be your baseline.

The toe can easily be honed, by lifting the heel with a rolling X stroke, a couple laps on the 1k and 6 and a few more on the 10. You should be using a rolling X stroke to finish anyway, this will blend and fully hone the edge. Toes are invaluable for shaving as are sharp heels.
TORREY 1.jpg
 
The Torrey needs heel correction. The heel corner ends at the stabilizer causing you to hone on the stabilizer, (see wear marks, blue arrow). The spine over the stabilizer is not touching the stone, causing a wonky bevel. The razor is not sitting flat on the hone. (Note, red arrow where there is no honing wear on the spine.
I did notice that when I originally set the bevel. It was hitting really high on that spot. So I totally guessed that it needed some removal on that spot. Now that you point out it’s a problem, how do they get that way? Spent some time on the 1k just on that spot to smooth it out and lower it some. Im always afraid of honing on things too much. I’ll spend some more time on that.
 
Todays shave got me back to my original question on this post.

My arsenal is pretty limited on what I can throw at this edge. Didn’t have time to go back to ground zero so I decided last night to spend some time on the strops to try and smooth things out. I have some green paste in a tiny toothpaste tube and the red and black crayons. All 3 the Herolds brand. Spent more time on the each strop than I normally would, moving to the next grit when it felt slick and wasn’t going any further. Finished with about 50 laps on plain leather. The edge was improved and I got an extremely close shave this morning.

Was it buttery smooth? No. But it was decently comfortable and close. Face feels smooth. Going to take @Steve56 and @Pedigree up on their very generous offers to hone up a coticule edge and a jnat edge so I have something to compare to. Thanks guys. Starting to see how much beard type and personal comfort comes into this equation.
 
“I did notice that when I originally set the bevel. It was hitting really high on that spot. So I totally guessed that it needed some removal on that spot. Now that you point out it’s a problem, how do they get that way?”


Which spot are you referring to, spine or heel?

Lay the razor on the stone and see if both the spine and bevel are sitting on the stone.

This “extra attention” is why tape for new honers is advised. Often new honers needlessly use too many laps and pressure trying to “fix” simple problems.

Reshaping, correcting the heel will allow the razor to sit on the stone, but if too much of the spine has been ground wonky, it will be more difficult to get an even bevel and edge on the razor.

There are several threads on heel correction and easy to do.

(HEEL CORRECTION)
 
I did notice that when I originally set the bevel. It was hitting really high on that spot. So I totally guessed that it needed some removal on that spot. Now that you point out it’s a problem, how do they get that way? Spent some time on the 1k just on that spot to smooth it out and lower it some. Im always afraid of honing on things too much. I’ll spend some more time on that.
If you start your stroke with a heel forward stroke, the high spot on the spine will be off the stone. As long as you get an even hit along the edge, the heel and the spine high spot might not need to be corrected yet. Even new razors come with this high spot.
The heel might become a problem when it starts to become part of the bevel.
 
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Just a suggestion. Hone ONE razor only. Sure, send others out, but let ONE of your razors be your sacrificial goat to the honing gods, the one you learn on. Make your mistakes, and celebrate your successes, on that one, only, until you are happy with the edge. Your progress will be faster if you work with one razor and one tool set, until you either reach a happy conclusion, or grind it down to a toothpick, one or the other.

Most of us use paste, not spray. I tried diamond spray and slurries on balsa, and they just don't work nearly as good as paste. techdiamondtools is an ebay vendor that many of us use. Read the pasted balsa strop thread. It's all in there.

You seem to be making decent progress. Soon you will be ready for a finer stone or film, or for the balsa progression.

Another suggestion that you can take or leave, your razor, and many here will disagree with me and they are not entirely wrong. But here it is. With a strongly upswept toe, it is NOT necessary to have the very tippy tip be treetopping sharp. In fact, vigorous and dedicated effort to make every last sillymeter of blade to horror movie sharpness, is misplaced and often overdone, perpetuating the issue, or even making it worse, rather than simply allowing normal honing over the next 20 or 30 years to slowly correct it. A lot of horribly abused razors are direct result of attempting to get that last bit sharp, even going so far as to duplicate the old 1930's "pigtail" style honing. You end up with a tapered blade and a useless toe and a barely salvageable razor. My feelings won't be hurt if you prefer to get it sharp end to end, but do give it some thought and do everything you do for a reason, after THINKING, instead of just because it seems the thing to do.

I also don't spend a lot of time seeking perfection to the absolute very end of a upward sweeping toe. I like to raise the heel at the end of a few strokes to try and touch it up some. This usually works. But yes, I don't stress if the tippy toe is not quite as sharp as the rest of the blade.
 
Amazing how much information I got from this thread. I’ve gone back to it a lot. I’m not much of a poster but glad I reached out. Good information that fixed some problems and I have now incorporated into my process. It’s gotten me to the next level and very appreciated. Thanks!!

I’ve honed and honed and honed. So much so that a crack in my Torrey scale at the pivot pin turned into full on broken. So I had to switch to a dixie. Immediate success. Kept going. After many days of experimenting, what I found is my 10k stone is a chip machine. It cuts super fast and has a very aggressive scratch pattern. Still spits out random grit even after I lapped a lot off the top. It’s going back into rotation in my kitchen knives where a serrated edge is appreciated. Also found out my king 6k must be one of the good ones. Using it edge leading exclusively. Using some dish soap on final laps I’ve been getting really good edges off it. Hitting it with a crox paddle and a clean strop I’ve had my best shaving edges yet. Fixed the scales on the Torrey (and the heel) and took it back to the hones after my discoveries and a lot of practice. Got an acceptable edge out of it but it still wasn’t as good as I expected.

So back to my question that started this thread, my Torrey seems to be a difficult razor. In some ways I’m glad since it made me think and practice much more than I would have on an easier blade. Could it be just the hardness of the steel?

Also on my original Q is my Bismarck. After looking at bevels for hours and hours I can now plainly see that its bevel is tiny compared to everything else I have. Seems like the grind is much thinner closer to the spine all the way out to the edge. Tried to capture that in this photo where the light is on both bevels. Could that thinness be contributing to my comfort? The bevel doesn’t look all that smooth. In fact it looks pretty scratchy. Not sure.

I now have a jnat reference edge and soon will have a coticule reference edge courtesy of @Steve56 and @Pedigree (can’t thank you guys enough) that I can compare my edges to. The jnat it feels extremely sharp and gives a very close shave. Need to use it a few more times to get a better feel for it. Also been examining the bevel compared to mine. I need work lol

For now I’ve got enough info in my head and have my process working enough that i decided to add a Naniwa SS 12k that’s on the way. Hopefully that gets me another level up.
 

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Chase the bevel, not the finisher.
Learn first, spend later.
And hone till it hurts and then keep honing till you hate it and then just keep on honing until you like it again.
Hone hone hone, hone it good.
Solid advice. Bruce Lee said something along the lines of being a master is simply a long road of mastering the basics. Gamma's advice above will produce mastery without any conscience of attaining it. Stanley Kubrick made his actors do more than 100 takes sometimes. His rationale was that it made them forget they were acting.
Don't underestimate the importance of the groundwork--bevel set and midrange. This is something that is becoming more and more apparent every time I sit down to hone.

Read Gamma's replies a few more times. Very good advice there, in my opinion.
As taught to me by my mentor, and repeated many times here--"no bevel, no edge." I'm not suggesting that failure to attain a bevel is your issue, if you've been honing for more than a few months and can call your work better than the 3 originals after they "fell off," your issue may simply be practice or a chance that you've not found the path that will take you to honing nirvana. As for me, I only know what I have to learn because I accidentally, once--became the beneficiary of an edge that I'd call as close to perfect as I've ever felt. I made it, and it comprises less than 1/4% of the edges I've produced. Bittersweet when it was a chance happenstance, and the exception rather than the rule.

I'm enjoying the journey very much. Don't be discouraged by your failures, rather, make each one a learning experience. As gamma said, keep the variables minimal.

I can go for hours, lol--remember you had 3 amazing edges that you maintained for a good amount of time with only stropping.

That speaks volumes. Stropping is every bit as important as the hone itself.

Keep it up!! You're doing great!
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Yeah if you follow the 6k with the 12k Nanny, you can get a pretty good edge. Don't stop until you feel the stone and bevel grabbing hold of each other. We call that "stiction". Then you can finish up on that grit and you are ready to strop and shave.

For more refinement, mix in some pull strokes when you first notice strong stiction, and finally, end with a couple dozen extremely short and light x stroke laps.

When you master that technique, you can try ending with dish soap solution on the 12k, and gradually diminish pressure over a hundred or so (yes, that is correct.) additional laps. The soap makes a buffer layer that reduces relative grit size and scratch depth and contact effect. At the very end it should feel like you are not even touching stone, just floating the razor in the honing fluid. When you really nail it, and it will take probably quite a few tries, the result is a pretty sweet edge that feels nothing like a normal 12k synthetic edge.

Finally, to paraphrase, "When I was a child, I shaved as a child, and honed as a child on childish media. Then I became a man, and I put away childish things." And this leads you up to the three stage lapped, diamond pasted balsa progression. It is nothing like your CrOx balsa. Be sure to read the whole thread before you start buying stuff.

But one thing at a time. Don't try to learn it all or do it all, all at once. Truly master one stage, one style, one skill set and tool set, before moving on. Just adding your 12k to your current progression is a giant leap forward, as Mao would say.
 
Lately, I've been following 0.1 micron diamond balsa
with 0.3 micron crox balsa.

It seems to me to be both sharper and smoother that way.
Where do you get your smaller micron crox? I’ve had trouble finding anything which is why I’m using the Dovo black paste
 
Yeah if you follow the 6k with the 12k Nanny, you can get a pretty good edge. Don't stop until you feel the stone and bevel grabbing hold of each other. We call that "stiction". Then you can finish up on that grit and you are ready to strop and shave.

For more refinement, mix in some pull strokes when you first notice strong stiction, and finally, end with a couple dozen extremely short and light x stroke laps.

When you master that technique, you can try ending with dish soap solution on the 12k, and gradually diminish pressure over a hundred or so (yes, that is correct.) additional laps. The soap makes a buffer layer that reduces relative grit size and scratch depth and contact effect. At the very end it should feel like you are not even touching stone, just floating the razor in the honing fluid. When you really nail it, and it will take probably quite a few tries, the result is a pretty sweet edge that feels nothing like a normal 12k synthetic edge.

Finally, to paraphrase, "When I was a child, I shaved as a child, and honed as a child on childish media. Then I became a man, and I put away childish things." And this leads you up to the three stage lapped, diamond pasted balsa progression. It is nothing like your CrOx balsa. Be sure to read the whole thread before you start buying stuff.

But one thing at a time. Don't try to learn it all or do it all, all at once. Truly master one stage, one style, one skill set and tool set, before moving on. Just adding your 12k to your current progression is a giant leap forward, as Mao would say.
I really want to try the balsa method. Almost bought a sheet when I was in woodcraft the other day. But I’m resisting muddying the water until I understand what’s going on with on my current path. And I’m starting to get there. I’m a very visual learner and staring at the bevels after each step is teaching me a lot. I decided to order the naniwa 12k just because it seems like it’s a proven method and fits in with what I’ve got.
 
I switched my Rockwell 6S baseplate from 3 to 4. After a couple of strokes on the old visage I had to scrutinize the razor to see if it was actually shaving off my whiskers. D*mn that razor with the #4 base plate felt as smooth as silk, no blade feel at all using a Feather + Castle Forbes. And it wasn't 'till the late afternoon or end of the day that I felt the slight stubble. DFS to BBS. Buttery smooth.
 
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Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I really want to try the balsa method. Almost bought a sheet when I was in woodcraft the other day. But I’m resisting muddying the water until I understand what’s going on with on my current path. And I’m starting to get there. I’m a very visual learner and staring at the bevels after each step is teaching me a lot. I decided to order the naniwa 12k just because it seems like it’s a proven method and fits in with what I’ve got.
Well, you absolutely definitely need a 12k or 1µ level edge before the balsa, if you want truly worthwhile results. The balsa, as prepped and used in The Method, will not make a mediocre edge into a sharp edge. If you go in expecting that, you will be disappointed. Its job is to make an already sharp edge into a crazy sharp edge. And you need to first learn to get best results from the 12k or from 1µ film, first, anyway. So yeah, your 12k is a good purchase for now. You will like using it and you will get a satisfying edge from it if your bevel is good and you use good technique. Meanwhile, read the pasted balsa thread beginning to end, and don't buy acrylic or balsa or paste until you are on the same page as everybody else that is having excellent success with The Method. If you do it randomly, you can only expect random results. Ditto, if you buy random stuff. Plenty of time for that later. You need to learn how to max out your new 12k first.

FWIW, I use, and recommend, a 3" x 36" x 1/4" balsa plank, in good condition with no splits or cracks or deep gouges or dents. Cut it into thirds. Then get three 3" x 12" x 1" pieces of cast acrylic from TAP Plastics. Get a fourth one if you will want one for lapping film, 1-1/2" thick. TechDiamondTools is a good vefndor for diamond paste. 3M Spray adhesive works fine for glueing the balsa to the acrylic prior to lapping and pasting, or you can use Barge contact cement or similar, but the spray goes on much smoother and with less bulk. Finally you will need a nice big very flat surface for lapping the balsa, and either 4" or wider roll sandpaper, or at least full size sheets, and a bronze bristle brush or a stiff toothbrush for clearing the sandpaper when it loads up. Start at 120 grit and finish at 400. No need to go finer and it will only frustrate you because the sandpaper will load up almost immediately at finer grits. Read the thread for the full details. All questions are answered there.
 
Where do you get your smaller micron crox? I’ve had trouble finding anything which is why I’m using the Dovo black paste


That one is labeled "mayonnaise formula" like the one I used.

I got mine from somewhere else in France a few years ago.
 
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Just a suggestion. Hone ONE razor only. Sure, send others out, but let ONE of your razors be your sacrificial goat to the honing gods, the one you learn on. Make your mistakes, and celebrate your successes, on that one, only, until you are happy with the edge. Your progress will be faster if you work with one razor and one tool set, until you either reach a happy conclusion, or grind it down to a toothpick, one or the other.

Most of us use paste, not spray. I tried diamond spray and slurries on balsa, and they just don't work nearly as good as paste. techdiamondtools is an ebay vendor that many of us use. Read the pasted balsa strop thread. It's all in there.

You seem to be making decent progress. Soon you will be ready for a finer stone or film, or for the balsa progression.

Another suggestion that you can take or leave, your razor, and many here will disagree with me and they are not entirely wrong. But here it is. With a strongly upswept toe, it is NOT necessary to have the very tippy tip be treetopping sharp. In fact, vigorous and dedicated effort to make every last sillymeter of blade to horror movie sharpness, is misplaced and often overdone, perpetuating the issue, or even making it worse, rather than simply allowing normal honing over the next 20 or 30 years to slowly correct it. A lot of horribly abused razors are direct result of attempting to get that last bit sharp, even going so far as to duplicate the old 1930's "pigtail" style honing. You end up with a tapered blade and a useless toe and a barely salvageable razor. My feelings won't be hurt if you prefer to get it sharp end to end, but do give it some thought and do everything you do for a reason, after THINKING, instead of just because it seems the thing to do.
Funny I got some ebay vintage Dubl Ducks and Bokers not on the same sale but I think it came from the same seller. Where the blades were rounded asymmetrically on the spine by the toe area and the bevels were significantly steeper there than the heel. I observed that the cutting action wasn't as good in that section either probably due to being somewhat out of ideal degrees or angle. Is that what you refer to as "pigtail honing?" What do they hone with the toe leading to get it that way? Why would anyone in their right mind hone a spine and bevel that way creating a tapered bevel? Makes no sense to me?....
 
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