What's new

Can any razor be buttery smooth?

Greeting gents. Been SR shaving for over a year now but new to honing. Until the last couple months my shaving experience has been with my 3 razors that were professionally honed when I bought them. Just been maintaining with stropping for the last year, rotating what I use. What’s brought me here (to this forum and honing) is I feel like a couple of them have dropped off and need some refreshing. After I found this forum I’ve been reading old posts like I’m cramming for a college final.

Before attempting to hone what I’d previously call my good razors, I bought a few… well maybe more than a few… beaters off eBay to learn on. Got some unexpected gems! But that another story. I’m a knife guy and I’m using the stones that I already own with the recent addition of a black Arkansas. Been honing, stropping, shaving, reading, repeat, for many weeks. Trying different stones in my arsenal, water, oil, soap, pastes, etc. learning along the way. I’ve finally had some repeatable success. Do my bevel setting on a King 1k until its pretty darn sharp, which I’m now able to tell by the feel on my thumb. I move to a 6k, then a 10k under slurry, then water, then finish on my black Ark with oil. Recent shaves on 2 of my test razors have been very good. My beard is heavy and they cut smoothly through the hair and left my face feeling great. No discomfort whatsoever and I definitely know what that feels like over the last few weeks.

But I have to say it wasn’t as good my professionally honed Bismark. It has always been so smooth and effortless. After I started thinking my honing was good I went back and shaved with it again. Nope. The test razors definitely weren’t that good. That thing is buttery smooth. Not sure if it’s the grind, the blade width / heft, or the sharpening job put on it that makes it feel so good. But it’s better.

That made me think about all the variability that goes into producing a good shave and I ask you guys, can ANY razor do what my bismark does? Is there a lot of variability from one SR to another? And I guess I have to say I’m not talking about lower quality manufacturers, which I know is subjective. I don’t have enough experience to know how I gauge if I’m making progress on my honing skills. Todays shave was very good. Comfortable, close, but not buttery. I know I have a ways to go on honing but I’m trying to set the bar for myself on what I should expect out of my pool of eBay finds.
 
I think the way I'd put it is that, at this point in your honing journey, most differences among the steels in respectable razors will be dwarfed by honing issues.

Learning to hone an edge that you can shave with is a wonderful achievement, but getting from there to topnotch results takes longer.

You did not mention magnification, which makes me think it's time to acquire some. The difference between kind of reaching the edge all along the length of the bevel, and reaching it definitively so that the whole edge gets the full effect of the finishing stone, is exactly the difference between a shave and a buttery smooth shave. Other things can go wrong, of course; this is just the one I've observed most often when I break out magnification to see what has gone wrong with a razor I'm restoring.
 
Largely a subjective thing... no one but you knows what one razor is or is not doing for you.

Sometimes one blade seems like the 'Neo' of all razors for one person, but not the next person.

If you want to 'gauge' your honing skills, do it with one blade and one honing set up. The more you put in the mix the less you will be able to isolate success and failures.

There are differences between razors, steels, grinds, geometry, etc. Yes. Those things equate to finished results but because there are myriad variables and perceptions.

In your quest for better edges, I might suggest that your progression could benefit from some 'refinement'.

The 1k King is serviceable, but a harder 1k like a Chosera, Shapton Glass, or 1.5k Pro will return a more accurate bevel.

Your 6k is prob a King too, I think the jump there is do-able but non all that conducive to enhanced refinement. Some have said that 6k is like an 8k - it isn't. Their 8k is barely an 8k. Still, I prefer to see something like 3k after a 1k. Sometimes I use a 2k after the 1.5k. 1k to 4k Glass Stones is something I do often. The Shap Pro 1.5k to 5k is a stretch, requires a lot of work on the 5k, prefer something in between.

Using slurry on synths finer than, say - 3k can cause the edge to either not advance to where it should be on that stone, or it can just retard the edge. The loose abrasive does not break down, it just slams into the apex in all sorts of ways that prevent the abrasive that is embedded in the binder from getting the edge to a more refined state.

I don't know what Ark you have, the color is not indicative of performance. A regular hard black is one thing, and a super dense very hard black that is like a Translucent is another thing. The former (reg Hard Ark) could do ok after a well done 10k (no slurry) effort, but I would not call that a 'finished edge. The latter (SB Ark/Trans/Etc) would probably prefer to see a more refined edge.

I'm not saying you can't get where you want to go with what you have. Just saying that I've been through many paths in this game and making changes as outlined above was beneficial for my progress.
 
To answer your question…no…not every razor can be made buttery smooth…if you get an old nasty or a new nasty that never had a good heat treat…or lost a heat treat along the way during a regrind…these will not give you an edge that you are looking for compared to your Dovo. You could also get an eBay razor with pitting at or near the edge…which could be a real pain to get out, etc. however, I think most quality razors made today or in the past can be given a nice shaving edge with the right stones and technique.

I use a Chosera 1k, a Shapton Glass 4k, a white Naniwa 8K (lobster mark…I think that’s a thing), and a Naniwa 12k SuperStone for my synthetic progression, and I only ever go to the 1k if I can’t do what I need to on the 4k.

If I want to redo a razor that I already honed…I kill the edge, and bring it back on the 8k.

After getting an edge right with synthetics I jump to natural stones…whatever trips my trigger at that particular time.

I like the idea of getting some magnification…a loupe is really handy to make sure that on the bevel near the edge you are completely replacing scratch patterns as you move from one stone to the next, it lets you make sure that you didn’t put any weird little chips or deformities along the apex of the edge, and it also lets you check that you didn’t inadvertently put a burr along the apex of the edge.

I think that a loupe, especially early on in your honing journey, is essential to check your edge at each stage.

This post is long enough…and I am a chicken nugget anyhow! Try lots of different stones and little tricks you learn/read about/watch on YouTube along the way, and don’t give up!
 
I would be interested to find out what hone setup was used on the razor that shaves the way you like…..🤔
Now that I’m more educated about it, I would too! But it was one of those online purchases where you add the extra honing charge. They may not have honed it at all at it came from Dovo like that who knows.
 
I think the way I'd put it is that, at this point in your honing journey, most differences among the steels in respectable razors will be dwarfed by honing issues.

Learning to hone an edge that you can shave with is a wonderful achievement, but getting from there to topnotch results takes longer.

You did not mention magnification, which makes me think it's time to acquire some. The difference between kind of reaching the edge all along the length of the bevel, and reaching it definitively so that the whole edge gets the full effect of the finishing stone, is exactly the difference between a shave and a buttery smooth shave. Other things can go wrong, of course; this is just the one I've observed most often when I break out magnification to see what has gone wrong with a razor I'm restoring.
Yep, I was trying not to write a novel in my post but there’s a lot of things I picked up off the forum. I watched a video early on from a honer on YouTube and he was using a loupe. I bought a sub $10 one off Amazon and had been using that. After reading posts about the belomo 10x I bought one. Immediately saw reflections on my edge that I didn’t see with the cheapo.
 
The 1k King is serviceable, but a harder 1k like a Chosera, Shapton Glass, or 1.5k Pro will return a more accurate bevel.

Your 6k is prob a King too, I think the jump there is do-able but non all that conducive to enhanced refinement. Some have said that 6k is like an 8k - it isn't. Their 8k is barely an 8k. Still, I prefer to see something like 3k after a 1k. Sometimes I use a 2k after the 1.5k. 1k to 4k Glass Stones is something I do often. The Shap Pro 1.5k to 5k is a stretch, requires a lot of work on the 5k, prefer something in between.

Using slurry on synths finer than, say - 3k can cause the edge to either not advance to where it should be on that stone, or it can just retard the edge. The loose abrasive does not break down, it just slams into the apex in all sorts of ways that prevent the abrasive that is embedded in the binder from getting the edge to a more refined state.

I don't know what Ark you have, the color is not indicative of performance. A regular hard black is one thing, and a super dense very hard black that is like a Translucent is another thing. The former (reg Hard Ark) could do ok after a well done 10k (no slurry) effort, but I would not call that a 'finished edge. The latter (SB Ark/Trans/Etc) would probably prefer to see a more refined edge.
I really didn’t want to sink a bunch of money into new stones right from the start. I really thought I could use what I had But I see there’s major room for improvement now. But I think I’ve learned enough now to make some educated decisions.

I really like the king 1k. I tried to use my fine DMT diaflat but it’s too harsh. Really raspy and I don’t like the feedback. You’re correct my 6k is a king and I’ve read some bad reports on it but it seems to be working ok if I keep it lapped. It tends to be a little fragile and the edges like to chip so I keep it smoothed out. The 10k is a yoshihiro that I bought it for my Japanese kitchen knives. It came with a slurry stone which is why I’ve been using it like that. Didn’t realize those particles would work that way but you may have just explained a lot. Always seems to lose a step on that stone and I’ve been using it with plain water more and more.

The black ark is a 10x3 from best. I only bought it because I didn’t have a finisher and I already have a soft and hard that I bought a few years ago. It wasn’t very flat and I should have returned it. Spent hours and hours with sandpaper trying to lap it. Finally bought some SiC and got it lapped flat based on posts I read here. Had some buyers remorse wishing I’d just spent the money on a Dan’s but it seems to be ok now. Its got me to where I am, albeit kicking and screaming.

Thanks for your detailed reply. Its starting to make sense that my progression is lacking. I’m a sucker for the natural stones and I really want to buy a coticule or a jnat. But I’m trying to rein myself in and learn how to make an edge before I go there. I need some better quality midrange stones it sounds like. Thanks for the suggestions
 
  • Like
Reactions: JPO
I really didn’t want to sink a bunch of money into new stones right from the start.
Good move
I really thought I could use what I had
You can
But I see there’s major room for improvement now.
There is always room for improvement I think...
But I think I’ve learned enough now to make some educated decisions.
This is the way
I really like the king 1k.
If you can manage a shave with the bevel off that King 1k, cool. If not, maybe question its existence in the line up.
I tried to use my fine DMT diaflat but it’s too harsh. Really raspy and I don’t like the feedback.
I don't like honing on diamond plates for similar reasons and others.
You’re correct my 6k is a king and I’ve read some bad reports on it but it seems to be working ok if I keep it lapped. It tends to be a little fragile and the edges like to chip so I keep it smoothed out.
Lot of knife guys loved that stone. It will work. Like the 1k, technology has moved past that product line. 1k to 6k is a lot of distance when the 1k is the red brick.

The 10k is a yoshihiro that I bought it for my Japanese kitchen knives. It came with a slurry stone which is why I’ve been using it like that. Didn’t realize those particles would work that way but you may have just explained a lot. Always seems to lose a step on that stone and I’ve been using it with plain water more and more.
The nagura in that set is a conditioning stone, for clearing swarf and opening the top surface.

The black ark is a 10x3 from best. I only bought it because I didn’t have a finisher and I already have a soft and hard that I bought a few years ago. It wasn’t very flat and I should have returned it. Spent hours and hours with sandpaper trying to lap it. Finally bought some SiC and got it lapped flat based on posts I read here. Had some buyers remorse wishing I’d just spent the money on a Dan’s but it seems to be ok now. Its got me to where I am, albeit kicking and screaming.

I have seen Black Arks from "Best' that were plain hard Arks, and others in boxes that said Surgical Black and I am not convinced they are that. A regular hard Ark can be only a little finer than some soft Arks. So it might pay to get that sorted out too.

Thanks for your detailed reply. Its starting to make sense that my progression is lacking. I’m a sucker for the natural stones and I really want to buy a coticule or a jnat. But I’m trying to rein myself in and learn how to make an edge before I go there. I need some better quality midrange stones it sounds like. Thanks for the suggestions
YW.
Chase the bevel, not the finisher.
Learn first, spend later.
And hone till it hurts and then keep honing till you hate it and then just keep on honing until you like it again.
Hone hone hone, hone it good.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I would strongly recommend that you put together a set of lapping films to hone with. Using them will teach you a lot about honing SRs and capital outlay is less than USD 50. You can still use your current whetstones for initial bevel-set but then move on to lapping films for refinement.

The beauty with lapping films is that they take out a couple of variables like honing surface flatness and inconsistent grit sizes.

This is how I progressed in my honing journey.

From just lapping films, I then added diamond pasted balsa. Once I had maxed out on pasted balsa, I then moved on to all-whetsone honing and it didn't take long to perfect that. Still can't match a pasted balsa edge for keenness but it is fun trying.
 
You can make most razors sharp, but not necessarily smooth. You can make most razors smooth, but not necessarily sharp. It takes a well made razor, a special set of hones and abrasives and special skills to produce an edge that is both sharp and smooth. If the razor is made of steel with a coarse grain structure, you will never get it to be either sharp or smooth.

Those who are good at knife sharpening sometimes struggle in sharpening a razor, although I have known some who could do both. A knife edge that is smooth may not be great at certain cutting tasks. Thus, knife sharpening seldom uses ultra fine abrasives.

I have a coarse beard and I have very sensitive skin. Thus, I want my edges to be both super sharp and super smooth. I accomplish that by using hones that are ultra fine (15-20K grit levels) and THEN follow up by polishing the edges with microfine abrasives on pasted strops. I finish with a 0.1 micron abrasive that is the equivalent of 100K grit level. Such an edge will have a mirror finish.

Dovo razors are made of good Solingen steel. However, the factory honing often leaves something to be desired. Since you were pleased with the job done by the professional honemeister, your razor seems to be capable of taking a suitable edge. Now all you need to do is find the proper hones and techniques to duplicate the edge. Once the bevel has been set on the razor, you should not need to go back and use lower grit levels. You might occasionally need to go back to a 10k stone. Many people produce excellent edges on Arkansas stones, but it could take some time to master the stone. Such stones need to be burnished with a chisel or other tool before they are suitable for razors. Also, you need to determine which lubricant works best with your Ark. I am not an expert with those stones. I much prefer other types of stones.
 
I wouldn't wait to get a coticule, I learned how to hone (pretty quickly) my razors using a coticule. It was pretty intuitive actually and somewhat straight forward with a unicot, whereas I struggled at my attempts with honing on synthetics.

I'll also add that on a coticule, the feedback and following the edge give alot of hints to the progression of the edge, which is why I found it simpler and intuitive.
 
Last edited:
You can make most razors sharp, but not necessarily smooth. You can make most razors smooth, but not necessarily sharp. It takes a well made razor, a special set of hones and abrasives and special skills to produce an edge that is both sharp and smooth. If the razor is made of steel with a coarse grain structure, you will never get it to be either sharp or smooth.

Those who are good at knife sharpening sometimes struggle in sharpening a razor, although I have known some who could do both. A knife edge that is smooth may not be great at certain cutting tasks. Thus, knife sharpening seldom uses ultra fine abrasives.

I have a coarse beard and I have very sensitive skin. Thus, I want my edges to be both super sharp and super smooth. I accomplish that by using hones that are ultra fine (15-20K grit levels) and THEN follow up by polishing the edges with microfine abrasives on pasted strops. I finish with a 0.1 micron abrasive that is the equivalent of 100K grit level. Such an edge will have a mirror finish.

Dovo razors are made of good Solingen steel. However, the factory honing often leaves something to be desired. Since you were pleased with the job done by the professional honemeister, your razor seems to be capable of taking a suitable edge. Now all you need to do is find the proper hones and techniques to duplicate the edge. Once the bevel has been set on the razor, you should not need to go back and use lower grit levels. You might occasionally need to go back to a 10k stone. Many people produce excellent edges on Arkansas stones, but it could take some time to master the stone. Such stones need to be burnished with a chisel or other tool before they are suitable for razors. Also, you need to determine which lubricant works best with your Ark. I am not an expert with those stones. I much prefer other types of stones.
what are you using on your pasted strops?
 
I wouldn't wait to get a coticule, I learned how to hone (pretty quickly) my razors using a coticule. It was pretty intuitive actually and somewhat straight forward with a unicot, whereas I struggled at my attempts with honing on synthetics.

I'll also add that on a coticule, the feedback and following the edge give alot of hints to the progression of the edge, which is why I found it simpler and intuitive.
I have read so much about coticules Im going to take the plunge at some point. Still overwhelmed with knots. I feel a little stubborn about sticking to my stones right now but I’m about ready to start changing it up after a little more practice.

I’ve seen several outlets for coticules including Amazon and eBay, but if I buy one I would like to get a quality one. Is there a place you trust for quality stones?
 
I've only been doing this for a year and a half so I'm not going to add to the sea of opinions that are already here. But I'll share a little of my experience.

Some finishers skew more toward buttery and smooth, while others skew more toward crispy and keen. A well done ark edge is never going to feel the same as a well done coticule edge (as an example) but they're both great in their own ways.

Some razors will take a great edge easily and others might take more time (sometimes a lot more) to achieve the same results on the same progression.

Don't underestimate the importance of the groundwork--bevel set and midrange. This is something that is becoming more and more apparent every time I sit down to hone.

Read Gamma's replies a few more times. Very good advice there, in my opinion.
 
“Been SR shaving for over a year now but new to honing.”

Likely your issues are the same that most new honers, and the cause is always the same. Failure to fully set a bevel.

Which stones you use do not matter all that much, you have good stones and good progression. You should be getting good shaving edges from the 10k if your stones were lapped flat. You mentioned that you were using stones that were purchased to sharpen knives. Knives will tear up a stone face and if not lapped flat, you cannot properly hone a razor on that stone. You can hone razors on one side and knives with the other, just mark which side is which.

New “Black” arks are a rabbit hole, and some are of questionable origin. So, eliminate the Ark, even if it is an Ark, how it is lapped, and finish will dictate ability to finish.

Fully set the bevel on the 1k, look straight down on the edge, if you see reflections, the bevels are not fully meeting, and not fully set.

Then just remove all the previous stria with each stone until you get to the 10k, you should have a good shaving edge and near mirror bevels from the 10k. If not, it is not the stones, but technique.
 
Couple of quick pointers - just my 2 cents…..

1) Use your DMT to freshen and flatten your stones before each use. Many synthetics seem to grow stuff out of their surface between uses.

2) King 1000, once you feel your bevel is good, do 10 laps of edge trailing strokes.

3) King 6000, do edge trailing strokes only. Do not do any edge leading strokes with this stone. This may take longer and you may create a foil burr. That’s fine. It will need to get removed by the 10K. (Some people, including myself, believe that the King 6K has a special knack for ruining good edges. Edge trailing is done to prevent it from doing that.)

4) Incorporate some gentle circle strokes on the 10K to remove any potential burr from the 6K.

5) A denim strop made from old jeans with some kind of cheap automotive wheel polish may help. Finish stropping on some kind of smooth leather. If nothing free is available, you can get strips on Amazon, and if you are buying, make sure it is “vegetable tanned”.
 
The bevel is your foundation. It must be sound. After setting the bevel, each stone in the progression just removes the scratch patterns from the previous stone.

I started with a King 1k. Did not like it. Bought a Naniwa Professional (Chosera) 1k "green brick". Much better for me. Then I bought a Shapton HR 1k which I love - really love!

I use the cherry tomato test when setting bevels. Do not move on till every mm of your edge easily slices the tomato.

After 1k, I would go 3k/4k and 8k, and finish with the finisher of your choice.

Chasing natural finishers is fun. However, these finishers are readily available and proven to work:
  1. Naniwa Super Stone 12000. Get the 20 mm version. The American version is model S2-491. The Japanese version is called Gouken Kagayaki and is model NK-2291.
  2. Dan's Whetstone Black Arkansas (Ultra Fine) or Translucent (Extra Fine).
  3. Coticule from Ardennes-Coticule.
Chef's Knives to Go, and Sharpening Supplies sell the S2-491. It is often available on Amazon as well. ikkyu-japanavenue.online - Japanese kitchen knife specialty shop - https://ikkyu-japanavenue.online/ sells the NK-2291. She (Yasuko) is fast and totally reputable. if you buy from her site, you may not pay tax and shipping. I recently bought a NK-2291 on Amazon for less than 75 USD and had the stone from Japan in a few days. Good deal!

Dan's sells stones of the highest quality. Knife Center and Sharpening Supplies also sell Dan's stones. Knife Center uses the same names as Dan's. Sharpening Supplies calls these stones hard black and hard translucent. Knife Center's prices are hard to beat.

If you buy a Coticule from Ardennes-Coticule (AC), tell Rob to please send you stone that will be a good choice for straight razors. Based on my experience, Rob will.
 
I have read so much about coticules Im going to take the plunge at some point. Still overwhelmed with knots. I feel a little stubborn about sticking to my stones right now but I’m about ready to start changing it up after a little more practice.

I’ve seen several outlets for coticules including Amazon and eBay, but if I buy one I would like to get a quality one. Is there a place you trust for quality stones?
I would purchase directly from Ardennes Coticule in Belgium. That's how I get my coticules. You can email Maurice and Rob and tell them what you are looking for (make sure to specify to them that it would be for your razors, specify size, speed, fineness, finisher vs fast cutter, et). [email protected] and [email protected].
 
Top Bottom