Sharp is easy
Sharp and smooth are much harder
Sharp and smooth are much harder
Can a SR Edge be Too Sharp?
- Thread starter rbscebu
- Start date
My Shotiku wedge is too sharp. I'm sure it's mostly technique but I've sliced myself with it several times and I've never sliced myself with any of the twenty some other razors I've honed and tried. Caught a few spike points, ear and nose grazes, pimple weepers, etc. But I'm talking come in at sightly the wrong angle and that thing will leave a 1" gash on your cheek, lip, neck. Maybe all three if you're brave enough to try and finish a pass.
A Schick Proline AC blade is both sharper and smoother than a Feather DE blade. It also has a lot more stability.
I have only once used a straight razor that had an edge that anywhere near approximated the edge of a new AC blade, and it was one sharpened by "The Method" that I tried out in the passaround. Wicked sharp, and very smooth. Required a very light touch.
Chasing that perfect edge is what keeps a lot of guys interested in straight razor shaving, but it is what drove me away. I have found satisfaction with the Feather SS shavette and the Proline blade. Near perfection, without me ever having to worry about how the edge will be. I know for a lot of you on this forum, that takes a lot of the fun out of it, but for me, the fun is getting fantastic shaves, and I don't enjoy the rest of it. YMMV.
I have only once used a straight razor that had an edge that anywhere near approximated the edge of a new AC blade, and it was one sharpened by "The Method" that I tried out in the passaround. Wicked sharp, and very smooth. Required a very light touch.
Chasing that perfect edge is what keeps a lot of guys interested in straight razor shaving, but it is what drove me away. I have found satisfaction with the Feather SS shavette and the Proline blade. Near perfection, without me ever having to worry about how the edge will be. I know for a lot of you on this forum, that takes a lot of the fun out of it, but for me, the fun is getting fantastic shaves, and I don't enjoy the rest of it. YMMV.
I believe a SR can be too sharp. I remember getting the TI Oakwing G and I was in agony when I began to shave with it, from the factory edge. I had to dull the edge slightly by doing a brief touch-up on a coticule with oil. I prefer coticule edges over all others, I prefer smooth and just sharp enough over-hyper sharp. I am in the one-pass club even when I have extra time. Feather blades were also too sharp for me also. I think it all boils down to skin-type and the characteristics of your hair.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Well, if you are ever again forced to settle for a sharp razor instead of a nice dull one, try modifying your technique. Lower the spine so that it just skims over the skin. Stretch good and tight. Most people use too high a shave angle even with a very ordinary edge and then use the same shave angle for a crazy sharp edge. That doesn't usually end well.
Sure, just load a Feather in a shavette. Im sure that even in a traditional straight, if you had a honemeister who was highly skilled, they could get the edge to close to the level of sharpness.
I know that since I switched to shavettes, I find that I prefer blades that are a little less sharp because they are more forgiving and I tend to nick myself much less.
In my DE days, I never would have used a blade like a Derby or a Shark but I like them in the shavette. Theyre dirt cheap too, which never hurts.
I know that since I switched to shavettes, I find that I prefer blades that are a little less sharp because they are more forgiving and I tend to nick myself much less.
In my DE days, I never would have used a blade like a Derby or a Shark but I like them in the shavette. Theyre dirt cheap too, which never hurts.
I recently touched on this subject on another thread when I found that after a year using a straight razor DE shaves now feel nasty on my face. They don’t give anywhere near a silky smooth feel as my straights, it’s not even close. I used a DE for if I was late and needed a real quick shave but so different was the quality of the shave that I learned to do a 15 min 3 pass straight shave just so I wouldn’t need a DE anymore. Assess sharpness how you like but for me it’s what gives the closest, easiest shave without tearing my face up on a microscopic level so that it’s not exactly irritated but it’s not next level smooth and silky. That’s gotta be the straight razor all day long.
The straight is made with decent quality steel and is hand honed with care, a lightening touch and human feedback between ear, eye, hand, arm and stone. Then it’s tested, then honed again, and again. Each time the honer is getting better and develops greater experience and knowledge of the materials and the muscle memory involved. He knows just when to stop and when it just needs a couple more hairs breadth touches. You could program a mechanical arm to paint a reproduction of a Picasso but there’s no way it could impart all the subtle nuances of brush stroke and weight of line etc. That’s why the robot arm painting would fetch £50 as a curiosity and the real thing could buy a small island.
This versus machine made low quality throw away steel stamped out by a machine. The mass produced blade has no chance. Just my two cents.
Can an edge be too sharp?
Define sharp first.
I have shaved with edges that have edge widths too narrow for the blade to support well enough, I find they irritate me and believe that 'flex' is the major part of the story. Too sharp? No, just irritating. Feather edges aren't 'too sharp' for me, in fact they hang up in the few trouble spots my beard likes to challenge edges with. Oddly, Personna Reds do not hang up in those spots and I might agree that, technically, Feathers are sharper than Personnas. My straights don't hesitate there either. I shaved with a Feather two nights ago actually, I wanted to test/compare a Jnat edge I built on an old French Stubtail wedge. The straight (today) was notably sharper and I can guarantee the shave will last longer.
In a purely scientific sense, a foil edge could have the narrowest edge width and by some argument or definition it will therefore be the sharpest edge of all. But that edge will fail quickly and until it fails it will produce a lousy and possibly dangerous shave. So, in that sense, a razor 'could' have an edge that is too sharp. Iwasaki spoke of barbers shaving on 'wire edges' so the concept is not new, or unusual. But that's not what most people thinking about most of the time this subject comes up.
Define sharp first.
I have shaved with edges that have edge widths too narrow for the blade to support well enough, I find they irritate me and believe that 'flex' is the major part of the story. Too sharp? No, just irritating. Feather edges aren't 'too sharp' for me, in fact they hang up in the few trouble spots my beard likes to challenge edges with. Oddly, Personna Reds do not hang up in those spots and I might agree that, technically, Feathers are sharper than Personnas. My straights don't hesitate there either. I shaved with a Feather two nights ago actually, I wanted to test/compare a Jnat edge I built on an old French Stubtail wedge. The straight (today) was notably sharper and I can guarantee the shave will last longer.
In a purely scientific sense, a foil edge could have the narrowest edge width and by some argument or definition it will therefore be the sharpest edge of all. But that edge will fail quickly and until it fails it will produce a lousy and possibly dangerous shave. So, in that sense, a razor 'could' have an edge that is too sharp. Iwasaki spoke of barbers shaving on 'wire edges' so the concept is not new, or unusual. But that's not what most people thinking about most of the time this subject comes up.
never too sharp, sometimes too harsh feeling. smoothly keen is the key. a well sorted Coticule edge, Jnats to .1 micron diamond paste on balsa are all good to go for me.
synthetic hones, thuris/eschers, to a trans arc don't do it for me, they tend to be tuggy. Crox feels harsh, and <1mic to .25 CBN/diamond, and a couple Jnat edges have felt a touch to harsh. take that .3-.25 down to .10.... much smoother.
technique and pressure will play a part in how an edge feels too.
synthetic hones, thuris/eschers, to a trans arc don't do it for me, they tend to be tuggy. Crox feels harsh, and <1mic to .25 CBN/diamond, and a couple Jnat edges have felt a touch to harsh. take that .3-.25 down to .10.... much smoother.
technique and pressure will play a part in how an edge feels too.
I did modify my technique and when I say dull I think I meant to use the word smooth. The edge was harsh. Running it over my coti didn't lessen the sharpness. I have since adjusted my angles and all that but that was many, many years ago.
- Thread starter
- #31
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
I first asked this question on 23 December 2019 when I was still very new to SR shaving. Today I answered the question for myself.
Prior to this week I shaved with a shavette using a new half Feather DE blade. That Feather shave was SHARP - the sharpest that I have ever shaved with. Although being the sharpest, the Feather still gave me a great shave and I rated it a 9/10 shave.
This week I have been working my way through my Chinese M7DS for the first time after their initial honing and diamond pasted balsa stropping. All seven Gold Dollar W59's were given exactly the same honing and stropping treatment. I worked my way through 星期一, 星期二 and 星期三 with results 7/10, 6/10 and 7/10 respectively. Today I shaved with 星期四. To my surprise the result was as good as (or a little better than) my shavette/Feather shave!
The 星期四 SR shave rated a good 9/10 and is the BEST that I have ever achieved. Can it get any better?
This makes me realise that I have progressed a long way with my technique both in SR shaving and edge preparation.
Prior to this week I shaved with a shavette using a new half Feather DE blade. That Feather shave was SHARP - the sharpest that I have ever shaved with. Although being the sharpest, the Feather still gave me a great shave and I rated it a 9/10 shave.
This week I have been working my way through my Chinese M7DS for the first time after their initial honing and diamond pasted balsa stropping. All seven Gold Dollar W59's were given exactly the same honing and stropping treatment. I worked my way through 星期一, 星期二 and 星期三 with results 7/10, 6/10 and 7/10 respectively. Today I shaved with 星期四. To my surprise the result was as good as (or a little better than) my shavette/Feather shave!
The 星期四 SR shave rated a good 9/10 and is the BEST that I have ever achieved. Can it get any better?
My take on things is like this. Sharp is the ability to cut hair. Smooth ease of cutting hair while maintaining a reluctance to cut skin. There is a balance we need to strike and there is a sweet spot for sharpness. That sweet spot is very high up the sharpness scale but not quite at the very top.
Imagine the edge of the razor passing over the skin. In front of the razor is a small wave of skin as the razor depresses the skin and moves forward. Light pressure will keep the wave small but if you have contact, you will have a wave. The goal of the razor is to catch the hair as close as possible to the skin and easily cut it off without catching or damaging the skin. Shaving soap adds lubrication and suppleness to the skin making it harder for the blade to catch on it. To achieve this feat the technique and prep must be good and the blade must be very sharp but not too sharp.
Now consider that are many different levels of skin damage ranging from severe to almost undetectable. A cut, nick, scrape, irritation, exfoliation, tightness and slight alcohol string are all examples. After a certain point the micro damage is very hard to detect and you will need aftershave or alum to even know it has happened. Now a personal question. How much damage are you comfortable with?
My preference is for an edge that it sharp enough for its intended purpose and not too much sharper. I want my edge to cut my hair closely and effortlessly with little to no resistance. Further sharpness past that point only acts to reduce my margin of safety against microscope skin damage.
To be clear I absolutely prefer an edge that’s a little too sharp to one that’s not quite sharp enough. Jnats, Black Ark and Thuri seem to hit the perfect shave mark most often. The 0.1 micron diamond pasted balsa tends to the sharp side but can work great on razors with a slightly larger bevel angle. Feathers are the only blades I buy for my rare DE travel shaves. I use a fresh one for each shave. Great blades but lousy control of cutting angle with a DE. Excellent control of cutting direction but that is another conversation.
Imagine the edge of the razor passing over the skin. In front of the razor is a small wave of skin as the razor depresses the skin and moves forward. Light pressure will keep the wave small but if you have contact, you will have a wave. The goal of the razor is to catch the hair as close as possible to the skin and easily cut it off without catching or damaging the skin. Shaving soap adds lubrication and suppleness to the skin making it harder for the blade to catch on it. To achieve this feat the technique and prep must be good and the blade must be very sharp but not too sharp.
Now consider that are many different levels of skin damage ranging from severe to almost undetectable. A cut, nick, scrape, irritation, exfoliation, tightness and slight alcohol string are all examples. After a certain point the micro damage is very hard to detect and you will need aftershave or alum to even know it has happened. Now a personal question. How much damage are you comfortable with?
My preference is for an edge that it sharp enough for its intended purpose and not too much sharper. I want my edge to cut my hair closely and effortlessly with little to no resistance. Further sharpness past that point only acts to reduce my margin of safety against microscope skin damage.
To be clear I absolutely prefer an edge that’s a little too sharp to one that’s not quite sharp enough. Jnats, Black Ark and Thuri seem to hit the perfect shave mark most often. The 0.1 micron diamond pasted balsa tends to the sharp side but can work great on razors with a slightly larger bevel angle. Feathers are the only blades I buy for my rare DE travel shaves. I use a fresh one for each shave. Great blades but lousy control of cutting angle with a DE. Excellent control of cutting direction but that is another conversation.
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Congratulations! Matching a Feather is about as good as it gets. I have never been able to beat a Feather, only match it, and I don't do that very often with Chinese razors.
- Thread starter
- #34
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
I aim for a DFS+ result with every shave. I do this with a WTG pass and a XTG pass. The only damage that I am comfortable with is a slight sting form an alcohol based after-shave slash. That is what I have been achieving over the past few months (with the odd nick when I fail to concentrate properly, but I don't consider that a fault of the edge).
All of my SR's have a bevel angle of about 16deg to 17deg. This is on the higher side than some others may prefer but they work well for me and I'm finishing off on 0.1um diamond pasted balsa. I have yet to start exploring natural whetstone finishes but I hope to be starting that within a couple of weeks.
Bevel angle is certainly an important part of the equation. My best shavers have been in the range of 17-17.5 degrees. This is also happens to be the most acute bevel angle that I’ve had the pleasure of shaving with. At 19 degrees the shave performance really starts to drop off for me. It’s a shame that so many razors are produced around the 19 degree mark. Perhaps because ham fisted honers have a tendency to reduce the bevel angle over time as they hone. Otherwise 17.5 would be a much better starting point.
It’s also interesting how certain razors seem to prefer certain finishes. I’ve had very good results with a Gold Dollar 66 ground to 17.3 degrees and finished on 0.1 micron diamond pasted balsa. That combination worked really well. The same bevel angle and finish on my finer ground full hollow Europeans felt vastly different and more harsh. Why this would be is still a mystery to me.
Really the bevel angle and apex should be the determining factors of the shave. The grind and thickness of the blade should be immaterial.
People often speak about the country of origin of razor steel as if the metal has certain inate properties bestowed upon it by virtue of the location of its manufacture. I appreciate that there are many different steel alloys, temper treatments, hardnesses and grain properties that can effect the razors performance. I’m still trying to understand why country of manufacture or provenance of the ore would make any difference to the properties of the final material. Why would China for example not be able to produce their own version of vintage Swedish steel? I’m not sure but differences certainly do exist.
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I think one reason people tend to like vintage razors is that the steel used was often "virgin steel", that is steel made from iron ore dug from the ground. Thus, the area where the ore was sourced often played an important part of the steel produced.
Although iron ore is still mined, most steel today comes from a combination of iron ore and recycled steel. When steel is recycled, you are getting a mixture of various metals as well as other impurities that have to be removed in the refining process. The quality of the refining process plays an important role in the quality of the steel produced. Certain localities were known for the quality of their razor and knife steel: Sheffield, England; Solingen, Germany; Thiers, France; Sweden, Japan, USA, etc.
First off, big time congratulations and welcome to the next phase of this absurd hobby of ours!
The seemingly unpopular opinion here is Yes it gets better, move on to a razor with better quality steel, a different included angle, and a better grind.
Im not trying to level a personal attack here because everyone’s face is different and everyone has their own valid experience and opinion... but to try and make an argument that Gold dollars are “good razors” relative to the quality vintage razors that were once commonly available is crazy to me. To then try and make an argument that a gold dollar honed to perfection will perform as well as a better razor honed to perfection is a flawed argument built on top of many other flawed arguments in my opinion.
The only point in my expressing that opinion is to say yes IME it gets better, and if you have the honing media and skill to hone up a good condition vintage razor you should go buy an eBay special for a good price and experiment. Make it something that’s radically different than a Gold Dollar in physical characteristics. My blanket recommendation for anyone in the US is drop ~$20 plus shipping on a good condition hollow grind from the PA/NY area in the early 20th century as a starting point. Geneva cutlery, Robeson, Case brothers, Kinfolk, Korn... anything Geneva or little valley, NY. They’re not flashy, but they’re from excellent purity steel and mostly high quality hollow grinds with narrow included angles. They’re not tempered hard, but they’ll darn sure hold a better edge for a lot longer than a gold dollar and for $20 if you live in the US they’re tough to beat. Some of the Little valley razors in particular rival any Japanese blacksmithed razor for how keen an edge they’ll take, and one particular 7/8” kinfolks hollow I have came at ~13.6* bevel and holds it just fine (for about 1/3 as long as a glass-hard Japanese razor).
You can accept blanket statements on the internet as truths, or for $20 you can see for yourself what a hollowed grind and a narrower bevel angle are all about. It may work wonders for your face or it may not. Maybe you’re a heavy Sheffield wedge person at heart, but the only certain thing is you’ll never know until you try for yourself.
if you can’t find a US hollow you like I’m sure loads of people on here will help you out if you PM. The one thing I whole heartedly agree with Slash on is that chasing the dragon is a worthwhile addiction just because it’s there, I just think we have very different faces and tastes in steel. The method is also an incredibly fool proof launch point for very little money so I’d never talk anyone out of starting out that direction. There’s just a whole world beyond that of qualitatively different blades and edges that are worth testing out.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
ABSOLUTELY a good quality vintage will generally be better and hone up sharper, given good honing methodology, than a Gold Dollar. No argument here. The problem is picking a good one. I can, you can, and probably a majority of the members here who participate in the straight razor subforums can, but a complete newbie absolutely can not. Then there is the honing, too. I can definitely put a sharper edge on a Union Spike than a GD66, but either one can still be marvelously sharp when you pull out all the stops and totally optimize method and tools. The difference need not be a bad mark against the GD. The expendable nature of the GD lends itself well to newbie learning mistakes. Screw it up, get another one exactly like the first one.
TBH I am no longer really cognizant of how long a GD will "hold" an edge. The balsa keeps it much sharper than most people's freshly honed edges. It need not be an issue.
The good quality vintage $20 shave ready razors that are truly shave ready, are not very common these days. Sometimes you gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find your princess.
I will never claim a GD to be the equal of a decent quality vintage razor in decent condition. It simply would not be true. But the shopping is a lot easier and cheaper, and you don't have to fear taking risks in doing stuff with or to the GD. It has its place in the big scheme of things.
In @rbscebu 's case, he is pretty much cut off from the U.S. UK and Western Europe vintage market. In his part of the world, new Asian razors are easier to get, and vintage blades from Japan are often of stunning quality but with prices that are, at best, fair for that level of quality. I think I was going to send him a GD at one point but it was determined that shipping to PI would be impractical. But yeah, the first time he gets his hands on a minty Genco, he is in for a delightful surprise. The Method works magic on those blades, that's a fact, once you master the ultralight pressure required compared to a GD or Titan. So, location plays a big part in what is most attractive as a purchase. And there is still the shopper's skill to be considered, and the degree to which a razor is expendable.
Just picked up a Kinfolk on the cheap. Waiting for it to arrive.
I believe edge characteristics and quality account for most of performance varieties in different blades that people maybe assume is a product of sharpness. It makes sense to me, that as an edge gets sharper and sharper, it also gets harder and harder to maintain a clean, symmetrical edge. As such, sharper blades naturally tend to more prone to the effects of things like, for example, imperfect technique
I doubt it's the sharpness itself that makes a blade harsh
I doubt it's the sharpness itself that makes a blade harsh
