The quality of water used in the tempering process also plays a part. Sheffield water was at one time exported to smelters in other regions because it made the steel so good
Can a SR Edge be Too Sharp?
- Thread starter rbscebu
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Water is not used in tempering.
I think he means quenching?
yep !!!
if you Mastro Livi hand strop look out!!!
camo
if you Mastro Livi hand strop look out!!!
camo
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Ah. Could be. Water quenching. Now that's old school. Almost everybody uses oil quench steels these days.
@Mitzie you mean hardening. That is when the steel is heated to critical temperature, usually where it incandesces a dark orange or very light red, and a magnet no longer sticks to the steel, then is quenched in usually oil but in ages gone by, in water or on Ahab's ship, in heathen blood, when there are white whales to be harpooned. Tempering is just the opposite. The idea is to moderate the hardness, make the steel tough and not as fragile. In that case the steel is heated until oxides on the surface turn a faint yellow, and then the steel is allowed to cool naturally. In the modern era we actually go by temperatures, usually. Tempering is done without a quench of any kind.
Water quenching is actually still pretty common, especially in the Japanese knife world. Mizu Honyaki (water quenched Honyaki) is actually more desireable and expensive than standard Honyaki.
Not sure if anyone is doing that for razors though, would likely be very difficult/nearly impossible considering how thin razors are ground before heat treatment.
I am not a metallurgist, but I know that some steels are designed to be oil cooled, for example O1 tool steel.
However, there are also steels that are designed to be water cooled. W1 is a high speed tool steel that is water quenched to give in high hardness. In some cases, salt water (brine) is used for cooling.
There are even steels that are designed to be air cooled, A2 for example.
Air cooled steels often have high levels of alloy metals such as tungsten, chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium. In these steels, you can get carbides of the alloy metals.
For a razor, the primary necessity is producing very small carbide crystals at the edge such that the edge can be made very thin without the carbides popping out. If the carbides are too large, you will get microchipping when the blade is honed. I have a Hart Steel razor made from O1 steel that apparently was not heat treated and quenched properly as I get microchips every time I try to produce an edge sharp enough for my beard. You cannot see the microchips with the naked eye, but my face can feel them easily.
However, there are also steels that are designed to be water cooled. W1 is a high speed tool steel that is water quenched to give in high hardness. In some cases, salt water (brine) is used for cooling.
There are even steels that are designed to be air cooled, A2 for example.
Air cooled steels often have high levels of alloy metals such as tungsten, chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium. In these steels, you can get carbides of the alloy metals.
For a razor, the primary necessity is producing very small carbide crystals at the edge such that the edge can be made very thin without the carbides popping out. If the carbides are too large, you will get microchipping when the blade is honed. I have a Hart Steel razor made from O1 steel that apparently was not heat treated and quenched properly as I get microchips every time I try to produce an edge sharp enough for my beard. You cannot see the microchips with the naked eye, but my face can feel them easily.
- Thread starter
- #48
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
@Namkcakram, thank you for your comments.
I am not extolling the virtues of Chinese Gold Dollar W59's. I believe that it was just a fluke to get a Feather quality edge on one of the eight W59's in my rotation. All my other W59's are on par with my other cheaper SR's, however I do enjoy shaving with the W59's due to their pronounced Spanish points (that I keep pointy and sharp).
Unfortunately we have had no postal service to the Philippines from either Europe or North America for almost a year now due to the pandemic. This has restricted me in obtaining any "quality" SR's from those regions unless I use the likes of FedEx or UPS and pay a furtune in shipping. I have been able to buy a few traditional SR's from Japan, although there they charge an arm and a leg for them. My other source for SR's has been Taiwan/Hong Kong where I can get mid to upper mid-level quality SR's for generally under about USD100 each.
The main thing with my "Feather" W59 is that it has shown me that getting such an edge is possible for me with what I have available. Now I know that an SR can not be too sharp.
I am not extolling the virtues of Chinese Gold Dollar W59's. I believe that it was just a fluke to get a Feather quality edge on one of the eight W59's in my rotation. All my other W59's are on par with my other cheaper SR's, however I do enjoy shaving with the W59's due to their pronounced Spanish points (that I keep pointy and sharp).
Unfortunately we have had no postal service to the Philippines from either Europe or North America for almost a year now due to the pandemic. This has restricted me in obtaining any "quality" SR's from those regions unless I use the likes of FedEx or UPS and pay a furtune in shipping. I have been able to buy a few traditional SR's from Japan, although there they charge an arm and a leg for them. My other source for SR's has been Taiwan/Hong Kong where I can get mid to upper mid-level quality SR's for generally under about USD100 each.
The main thing with my "Feather" W59 is that it has shown me that getting such an edge is possible for me with what I have available. Now I know that an SR can not be too sharp.
Hey sorry I wasn’t meaning to imply those were your thoughts or words, I’ve just seen quite a few arguments made in favor of Gold Dollars and I think they are built on flawed logic. They’re great beginner razors and great for getting an apples to apples honing comparison for softer tempered steel.
If you have access to the Asian vintage market my recommendation would change to anything made by Tanifuji. He produced a number of different brands himself, as well as producing for other “house brands” around Japan. IME they’re most commonly ~3/4”, half hollow grind, Swedish steel, narrow bevel angle, and tempered very hard. He produced quite a lot so for definitely <$100 you can find a really nice example with excellent fit and finish. The only one I currently have is a very abused “Cape 1000” that I use to see how stones will react with very hard steels. Even as worn and abused as my example is, it’s still in the top 3 half hollows I own. I’ve had a few others previously that were stellar razors, I’m just not personally into half-hollows so I only keep a few around for science or if I need some variety.
*edit to say there are a few razors I think everyone should get to shave with at least once, and Tanifuji half hollows are a benchmark of that grind profile for me personally.
The other thing to ponder is that sharpening media and the peculiarities of certain blacksmithing characteristics evolved hand-in-hand regionally. I would argue that the JNAT reputation for producing incredible edges doesn’t stem from just the stones in a vacuum, but from the fact that JNATs originally were used primarily with matching Japanese razors and other edge tools- using very high purity carbon steels water quenched and tempered very hard. When you take those razors apart from their original honing media you have a unique experience of seeing what you can do with that particular steel and access to any honing media you choose now via global commerce. I’m a western woodworker but I use almost exclusively Japanese chisels because you just cannot find any modern western chisels with similar performing cutting edges at any price.
If you have access to the Asian vintage market my recommendation would change to anything made by Tanifuji. He produced a number of different brands himself, as well as producing for other “house brands” around Japan. IME they’re most commonly ~3/4”, half hollow grind, Swedish steel, narrow bevel angle, and tempered very hard. He produced quite a lot so for definitely <$100 you can find a really nice example with excellent fit and finish. The only one I currently have is a very abused “Cape 1000” that I use to see how stones will react with very hard steels. Even as worn and abused as my example is, it’s still in the top 3 half hollows I own. I’ve had a few others previously that were stellar razors, I’m just not personally into half-hollows so I only keep a few around for science or if I need some variety.
*edit to say there are a few razors I think everyone should get to shave with at least once, and Tanifuji half hollows are a benchmark of that grind profile for me personally.
The other thing to ponder is that sharpening media and the peculiarities of certain blacksmithing characteristics evolved hand-in-hand regionally. I would argue that the JNAT reputation for producing incredible edges doesn’t stem from just the stones in a vacuum, but from the fact that JNATs originally were used primarily with matching Japanese razors and other edge tools- using very high purity carbon steels water quenched and tempered very hard. When you take those razors apart from their original honing media you have a unique experience of seeing what you can do with that particular steel and access to any honing media you choose now via global commerce. I’m a western woodworker but I use almost exclusively Japanese chisels because you just cannot find any modern western chisels with similar performing cutting edges at any price.
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OMG! Just thinking about dipping my toes into SR's and now it could be potentially too sharp!?!?!
Sigh, you gents are another level.
Sigh, you gents are another level.
- Thread starter
- #52
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
I found my first shavette/Feather shave to be sharp and acceptably comfortable. It may have been my shavette ($2 Chinese SS) or my technique that made the difference. Mind you, it was not as comfortable as the 星期四 W59 SR last Thursday.
Next week I should have an opportunity to to take the shavette/Feather for a second ride with the same blade. I will see if their is a difference. I also hope to be able to shave with my 星期四 (Chinese Thursday) W59 SR again the following day so as to get a good comparison between the two edges.
- Thread starter
- #53
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Dip your toes in. The blood is warm.
It looks like an SR cannot be "too" sharp. Having a too sharper blade only appears to be a problem for some DE shavers. Might be because they can't see the edge of the blade on their skin when shaving. Now that's scary!
