Can a SR edge be keener (ignoring comfort) than one off diamond/CBN pasted balsa?

[JPO]

Flatten your shaving angle. That is what is causing the exfoliation.

I will try to use it with a more flat angle. Both razors cut with more or less the same efficiency. They also felt quite similar. It is hard to know if the added exfoliation was due to the balsa edge being sharper, or just less refined/harsh.
I will give the balsa edge the benefit of doubt, and see how well it performs over time.
It is also not a fair comparison, because i was not comparing two similar razors.

One thing i have noticed is that these balsa edges perform better if they are used after synthetic progression. For some reason these jnat edges don't like to be "optimized" with balsa.
The test razor i used had a 30k shapton pro edge, before it was taken through a balsa progression.

 

[steveclarkus]

A "too sharp" edge can usually shave comfortably if you reduce your shave angle. Unfortunately our muscle memory is strong when it comes to shave angle. It can be a struggle, to deliberately nearly drag the spine on the face.

I find the .1µ on balsa to give a much smoother and more comfortable edge than .25µ or .5µ diamond. The coarser stages, to me, feel harsh, or less comfortable, anyway, and the .1µ smooths it out a lot, but I do have to lower the spine close to the face. I am so used to it now that it seems very natural, though.

A key component in balsa honing is stripping fin and micro jaggly bits from the edge using pull strokes and very short x strokes. It just works. Another is keeping the pressure dead light, especially for the final grit, and rubbing the excess from the balsa after applying, so that there is no coating on the surface.

Same here.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Can a SR edge be keener (ignoring comfort) than one off diamond/CBN pasted balsa? I judge keenness by how easily the edge shaves in the CdM (ATG upper lip) pass.”

Yes, for one, a Diamond or CBN pasted strop not using balsa.

Balsa has its own grit that is much larger than micro grit. Do an experiment by pasting a piece of cardboard with any good metal polish, strop an 8k honed razor about 100 laps, removing all visible stria on a 60x loupe or USB scope.

Now, strop on plain unpasted balsa, you will see new stria on the bevels from the balsa.

Paste a substrate that does not contain any grit for a finer edge.

Your method of testing is very subjective. If you are basing “sharpness” on feel, what happens when the edge is sharp and smooth? Synthetic edge does not need a grit much higher than 8k to be sharp enough to cut hair cleanly and some naturals, Arks and Jnats much lower grit size.

Have you had much experience with Vintage Arks and Jnat’s? You get the best of both keenness and comfort, with much lower grit size.

Sharp is easy.

 

[JPO]

If you are basing “sharpness” on feel, what happens when the edge is sharp and smooth?

I have been wondering the same. When you don't feel much of the edge on your skin, and the hair cuts effortlessly, what is the upside of supposedly making the edge sharper?

Is it sharper, or does it just feel sharper?

What about the effect of the micro serrations some natural stones leave. There must be a reason why a coticule edge, which can look quite messy, can shave so good.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I will try to use it with a more flat angle. Both razors cut with more or less the same efficiency. They also felt quite similar. It is hard to know if the added exfoliation was due to the balsa edge being sharper, or just less refined/harsh.
I will give the balsa edge the benefit of doubt, and see how well it performs over time.
It is also not a fair comparison, because i was not comparing two similar razors.

One thing i have noticed is that these balsa edges perform better if they are used after synthetic progression. For some reason these jnat edges don't like to be "optimized" with balsa.
The test razor i used had a 30k shapton pro edge, before it was taken through a balsa progression.

If you run through all three stages of the balsa progression two or three more times, (don't worry, if you set up the balsa correctly, you aren't removing enough steel to matter) you may well find that your Jnat edge forgets that it is supposed to be a Jnat edge.

 

[JPO]

If you run through all three stages of the balsa progression two or three more times, (don't worry, if you set up the balsa correctly, you aren't removing enough steel to matter) you may well find that your Jnat edge forgets that it is supposed to be a Jnat edge.

I agree. However, then it makes more sense just to use synthetic stones without any jnat.

 

[Steve56]

Just curious, why would you ignore comfort?

 

[rbscebu]

Just curious, why would you ignore comfort?

I don't ignore comfort as I still get suitable comfort feeling when shaving with pasted balsa edges.

The reason I am asking for comfort to be ignored in members' assessments is that it is a rather variable subjective opinion that I would not be included in members' assessments.

 

[Steve56]

I don't ignore comfort as I still get suitable comfort feeling when shaving with pasted balsa edges.

The reason I am asking for comfort to be ignored in members' assessments is that it is a rather variable subjective opinion that I would not be included in members' assessments.

Isn’t ‘keenness’ also a bit subjective? How do measure ‘keenness’ ?

 

[rbscebu]

Isn’t ‘keenness’ also a bit subjective? How do measure ‘keenness’ ?

Yes, keenness is subjective but let's not include too many subjectives into the assessment. I measure keenness comparatively when performing a CdM. I expect that most others would measure keenness comparatively in a similar way.

 

[JPO]

I had a nother shave comparison today between my jnat edge and the 0.1 micron balsa edge.
The balsa edge is now noticeably less smooth, and have lost some of the cutting efficiency.
The inat edge is now performing better. It feels quite similar to the first shave.
So the balsa edge needs a refresh, either on the balsa, or back to the stones.
Do you refresh these edges on balsa after every shave, or do you just use a leather stropp?

 

[rbscebu]

.... Do you refresh these edges on balsa after every shave, or do you just use a leather stropp?

After every shave with a balsa stropped edge, I give it 50 to 60 laps on a 0.1μm hanging balsa strop with intermingled short X strokes. This takes about 1 to 2 minutes. I still clean-leather strop before each shave.

I enjoy shaving with a fresh crisp edge off pasted hanging balsa.

 

[JPO]

After every shave with a balsa stropped edge, I give it 50 to 60 laps on a 0.1μm hanging balsa strop with intermingled short X strokes. This takes about 1 to 2 minutes. I still clean-leather strop before each shave.

I enjoy shaving with a fresh crisp edge off pasted hanging balsa.

I will give the edge one more go with your suggestion only using the 0.1 micron balsa.
I need to get that rbscebu effect going

Do you notice any difference using different steel?
This particular razor is a boker, which is hardened to 59.
I have usually found that harder steel, like the C135 (Ti razors) likes pasted edges a little better then softer steel.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“After every shave with a balsa stropped edge, I give it 50 to 60 laps on a 0.1μm hanging balsa strop”.

What is a Hanging Balsa strop, can you post a photo?

Does stropping on leather post diamond balsa improve the edge?

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I will give the edge one more go with your suggestion only using the 0.1 micron balsa.
I need to get that rbscebu effect going

Do you notice any difference using different steel?
This particular razor is a boker, which is hardened to 59.
I have usually found that harder steel, like the C135 (Ti razors) likes pasted edges a little better then softer steel.

I found that of all the razors I used with pasted balsa, Friodur stainless was the best in terms of smoothness--I doubt I could tell it from good ark or Jnat edge in a blindfold test.

“After every shave with a balsa stropped edge, I give it 50 to 60 laps on a 0.1μm hanging balsa strop”.

What is a Hanging Balsa strop, can you post a photo?

Does stropping on leather post diamond balsa improve the edge?

He means holding the balsa strop vertically by the corner (hanging) when stropping to ensure the lightest touch.
Yes, I think leather takes some of the harshness away but it doesn't seem to bump the edge up much. My nephew is a headshaver and prefers to shave straight off the .1um balsa.

You guys are tempting me to finish a razor on balsa again and do a head-to-head with a good ark edge. But I need to relap and reapply diamond paste, last time I used the balsa strops I could tell they were getting a little tired.

 

[JPO]

You guys are tempting me to finish a razor on balsa again and do a head-to-head with a good ark edge.

I am starting to remember why I packed these plates away several years ago.
I am a slow learner, so maybe I missed something.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I had a nother shave comparison today between my jnat edge and the 0.1 micron balsa edge.
The balsa edge is now noticeably less smooth, and have lost some of the cutting efficiency.
The inat edge is now performing better. It feels quite similar to the first shave.
So the balsa edge needs a refresh, either on the balsa, or back to the stones.
Do you refresh these edges on balsa after every shave, or do you just use a leather stropp?

Oh absolutely without fail, I hit the .1µ balsa 50 extremely light laps after each and every shave. When you do that, you never see a dull edge. It just gets better and better. If you don't, in only a very few shaves, the hyper sharp edge is reduced to the basic 1µ film edge or 12k synthetic edge level, where it levels out for a long while if your pre-shave stropping is on point. The balsa edge, sharp though it be, won't sustain itself long.

 

[Slash McCoy]

“After every shave with a balsa stropped edge, I give it 50 to 60 laps on a 0.1μm hanging balsa strop”.

What is a Hanging Balsa strop, can you post a photo?

Does stropping on leather post diamond balsa improve the edge?

I have shaved straight off the balsa but the edge definitely lacks a little something that hanging leather gives it, so I always hit the balsa post-shave, and the leather pre-shave. I don't use canvas or linen.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I will give the edge one more go with your suggestion only using the 0.1 micron balsa.
I need to get that rbscebu effect going

Do you notice any difference using different steel?
This particular razor is a boker, which is hardened to 59.
I have usually found that harder steel, like the C135 (Ti razors) likes pasted edges a little better then softer steel.

At the sub micron level, with the abrasive embedded in balsa, I think maybe those hard, sometimes easily microchipped steels, just don't get clobbered enough to chip. Also diamond is of course hard, like diamonds. Diamond sneers at hard steel. So very hard razors and the diamond on balsa naturally would make a pretty good match. But I get good results from softer steels, too. Old Sheffields, Gold Dollars, whatever.

 

[JPO]

At the sub micron level, with the abrasive embedded in balsa, I think maybe those hard, sometimes easily microchipped steels, just don't get clobbered enough to chip. Also diamond is of course hard, like diamonds. Diamond sneers at hard steel. So very hard razors and the diamond on balsa naturally would make a pretty good match. But I get good results from softer steels, too. Old Sheffields, Gold Dollars, whatever.

Maybe the missing link is the 50 plus laps before each shave as you say
I have always just viewed the balsa as an edge inhancer, not a hone replacement.