Not a diamond plate - 600x w/d paper...
Burnishing an Arkansas Stone?
- Thread starter Acmemfg
- Start date
Stone on stone won't clog the pores, and the stones are of a high "grit", we both would agree that this is burnishing. (I think)
Arkansas stones are silica, and the particle size is fairly constant across the range of "grit" in them, while the density is not. "Finer" stones have been compressed more during metamorphisis, which is why they are denser. The more tightly packed the particles, the less abrasive action they have, so a dense, hard stone will remove less steel and has less space between the parts sticking up, hence will make shallower scratches.
Burnishing an Arkansas stone blunts the abrasive particles -- they fracture, and the blunter particles remove even less steel per pass and make shallower scratches. Unfortunately, highly burnished stone are also nearly ineffective at actually removing steel and are instead very lightly polishing it. Should make a good edge eventually, but most of us will probably not live long enough for it to happen.....
In the interest of actually polishing an edge by removing steel, you want the stone to have some texture. Use very light pressure to hone and the surface condition becomes much less important.
Note that I'd not bother to attempt honing a stainless razor or one of the high hardness Japanese style knives on an Ark if it's polished, silica is too soft in any case, and if the stone is highly burnished, the blade is just going to skate around. Arks are a bad choice for very hard steel with large carbides. Aluminum oxide stones work much better.
Burnishing an Arkansas stone blunts the abrasive particles -- they fracture, and the blunter particles remove even less steel per pass and make shallower scratches. Unfortunately, highly burnished stone are also nearly ineffective at actually removing steel and are instead very lightly polishing it. Should make a good edge eventually, but most of us will probably not live long enough for it to happen.....
In the interest of actually polishing an edge by removing steel, you want the stone to have some texture. Use very light pressure to hone and the surface condition becomes much less important.
Note that I'd not bother to attempt honing a stainless razor or one of the high hardness Japanese style knives on an Ark if it's polished, silica is too soft in any case, and if the stone is highly burnished, the blade is just going to skate around. Arks are a bad choice for very hard steel with large carbides. Aluminum oxide stones work much better.
I waited too late to edit all of the misspelled words on my previous post. I do want to add that when I lapped a piece of jade I have ,it proved what I had read . It is too hard and smooth to hone with. When I did the washita experiment,I noticed the surface looked similar to the jade. As I progressed the stone lossed texture. So we can see that lapping is sufficient. Burnishing will happen after honing over time. Then lapping to add texture would be necessary. Also a hard black Arkansas I have leaves super Lazer sharp edges. Great stones.
I have quite a few Arks and use them religiously. This says it all for me Scientific American November 1978
Good thread!
I agree! Over time the stone will need refreshing.
Just to throw another wrinkle into this- Jarrod at the Duperior shave (who has honed many a razor in his time) will use a SB ark dry.
Even though this kind of freaks me out I certainly can understand how and why this might work. I get the feeling that on finely lapped Arks, the blade floats quite a bit on the lubricant no matter how low viscosity it is. I think using the stone dry would allow more edge contact. I'm going to try this on a freshly lapped translucent and see if anything gets trapped in my stone. I get the feeling the stone would have to be refreshed more often than a stone used with lubricant.
novice question..... as a finishing stone isin't more about polishing/ fine tuning vs cutting
i am going to continue to study this thread and links, i have coe stones coming i'm planning to burnish on side of each fine/black, finishing/gray
to further complicate discussion here are some out takes from chat i had with him....
"The Dota Creek Fine is a hard stone, BUT if you are set up to lap then the Arkansas Grey is not an issue to maintain. You get about 5 uses out of it and then it needs lapping.. Soft limestone, but the reason it works is it is loaded up with silica particles. You can see them glistening out in sunlight. Folks have a hard time accepting that a soft stone can be a super fine stone, but those silica particles are buffered by the surrounding limestone..... Splash water and go on all my stones."
From the quoted state, the Coe stones do not appear to need "burnishing" ("polishing" in my lexicon). No need to lap things very fine if the stone is going to go out of whack after five uses. Anywhere between 320x and 600x should be fine.
timwcic
"Look what I found"
I have some muddy Escher that resemble that remark
Me too. I own a Barbers Delight and a Nakayama that are so soft I feel like I could put a thumbnail mark in. Both are so fine they finish super fast, super fine, and relatively stupid proof.
Not for lack of trying, though.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
My requirements for a stone.
Soaking, lapping, burnishing, etc... who has time for all of that?!
My super polished arkies remove steel on my razors, no doubts about.
Polish the arkies, one against the other. Start wirh water and soap, finish dry.
Coticule to best finish. Water, no slurry (unless the edge is damaged).
Arkie to perfection. Water with a point of soap.
It takes about a hundred passes on the buterscotch arkie to start to feel suction, another 50 for the blade to skid. Start with pressure, progressively lighter until ready. Under magnification the diference betwin both stones finish is very noticeable.
It took me a long time to get this rigth, but I haven't purchased another stone or razor since.
To note that my deba, yanagiba, outdoors knifes, and ham knifes all go to the same stone with very noticeable results: sticky sharp!
Polish the arkies, one against the other. Start wirh water and soap, finish dry.
Coticule to best finish. Water, no slurry (unless the edge is damaged).
Arkie to perfection. Water with a point of soap.
It takes about a hundred passes on the buterscotch arkie to start to feel suction, another 50 for the blade to skid. Start with pressure, progressively lighter until ready. Under magnification the diference betwin both stones finish is very noticeable.
It took me a long time to get this rigth, but I haven't purchased another stone or razor since.
To note that my deba, yanagiba, outdoors knifes, and ham knifes all go to the same stone with very noticeable results: sticky sharp!
I've said it before, I'll say it again - in my testing, using water on a highly polished Ark will not do much if any actual cutting - it polishes through some other mechanism, no or very very little swarf is produced. Using TOO MUCH or TOO THICK oil will give much the same result. Use a very thin oil, lightly applied on a polished/"burnished" Ark and it WILL pull swarf. I like to smear a little tiny bit on and wipe it around so it's almost not even there. Alternatively, leave the stone a bit less polished and use a thicker oil more heavily applied.
kelbro
Alfred Spatchcock
This mirrors my experience.
timwcic
"Look what I found"
My highly burnished/polished butterscotch ark for years has been delivering laser sharp but butter smooth edges for years. I only use my homemade oil, never tried water. It had been lapped and polished once and never touched again. I use three drops oil oil smeared over entire surface. After a few hundred laps, I can not see the swarf until I wipe clean with a white tissue. I love this stone
timwcic
"Look what I found"
Can not speak for others, but I use homemade oil on my polished arks. It is 50/50 J&J baby oil and odorless kerosene. Mix 2 oz. at a time and keep in a contact lens solution bottle which only give one drop at a time. Use same on my Uber hard coticules also.
