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*Brush War* Commentary thread... (for above locked stickies)
- Thread starter joel
- Start date
Very nice! Can't wait to hear the reviews and how it compares to the PJ2.
Nice brush Joel, I feel that SBAD coming on me again, I have to fight the feeling..... I can't wait for your reviews, could be another Simpson added to my collection.
Lovely brush Joel. Unfortunately, the PJ2-PJ3 side-by-side reinforces my assessment of Mr. Simpson's brushes, i.e. inconsistent quality. In consideration of the premium charged for these brushes I expect more. 
- Thread starter
- #5
guenron said:Lovely brush Joel. Unfortunately, the PJ2-PJ3 side-by-side reinforces my assessment of Mr. Simpson's brushes, i.e. inconsistent quality. In consideration of the premium charged for these brushes I expect more.
Inconsistent how?
One must keep several things in mind when evaluating these two.
#1. The PJ2 is 3-4 years old with near daily use.... it will obviously look more "worn" and the hair and handle cannot expect to look as "brilliant"
#2. Badger hair varies from individual badger to badger, year to year, an as a result, the only way to get true "consistency" in terms of the "look" of the badger is the use of bleach, and/or low quality hair which is more readily available.
#3. It is a fully handmade product, so the handle from brush to brush will be slightly different, as will the cut of the hair, etc.
ALL handmade, top quality products will not be ISO9000 consistent - if you want consistency, you don't want handmade.... you want machine made products.
To each their own - but personally nothing impresses me more then true, handmade craftsmanship. Something where by a CRAFTSMAN (not an assembly line worker) skilled in their trade, with decades of experience, is able to create something from blood, sweat, and tears. Is this cosmetically perfect? No. Is the cut of the badger perfectly rounded/even? No. Could I do better? Not a chance in hell. For me however - I do much prefer owning something that has a "soul" and I find handmade products, unlike mass produced product just have a more organic feeling. (Side note: It is one thing to have VERY slight blemishes which add "character" however it is NOT ok to have blatant defects, as sometimes found in Thiers Issard razors, whereby the pin will be almost OFF of the scale and the entire razor looks like a 5 year old put it together)
Again - to each their own... but if you sit in a handmade car - an Aston Martin, a Rolls Royce, a Ferrari, etc, it just has a special, organic, "rich" feeling to it. Is the fit and finish better than a honda? Hell no, but I don't think there is a single fella on this board who would pick the Honda over the aformentioned brands if money were no object.
AH Joel, Joel, Joel... Now that you are finished your rant, are you ready to gain insight? First your statement that the PJ2 has near daily use? Three or 4 years old? Now, now, have you used it daily for the last 2 years?
What is the issue? Hand made quality doesn't last? I really wasn't commenting on wear or abuse, though I dsagree with your assertion that a handmade brush will not stand up to use as well as a machine-made brush. It was INCONSISTENT quality that I find disturbing, especially in a product that sells for a premium.
Now since you appear to have been somewhat overly dramatic, let us turn for a moment to a more analytical approach. You seem to believe that handmade (FULLY so?) indicates that quality must be inconsistent. Do you really believe that everyone making brushes by hand for Simpsons has the same capacity for quality? (SKILL?) Do you believe that there are not apprentices and journeymen making brushes there, only master craftsman? Do you really think all their skills are equal?
Reproduceable quality, contrary to your histrionics and assertions, does not require a machine-made product, only skill and attention to detail on the part of those producing the product and a process geared to maintain quality. Hand-made does not mean that each piece need be unique. Blood, sweat, and tears? Come now. That might cut it in NIMBY country, but does not stand muster elsewhere. Man up Joel!
Measuring, weighing, and using the same shaping boxes can ensure consistent quality when the makers are directed to produce and maintain a particular level of quality. Hand selection of badger hair meeting specific (and uncompromising) standards of quality ensures the consistent look and feel from year to year. While the culling of badgers is not an exacting art, the selection and grading of their contribution to the brush makers' art goes a long way to overcome seasonal variation. These qualities are best evaluated by skilled hands and eyes, not machines and that is what I expect when I pay a premium for a brush. This is one of the complaints against machine-made brushes, that there is no human ensuring the level of quality especially becuase the cost to do this selection is not warranted by the cheaper items. Hand knotting can consistently produce brushes superior to machine-produced plugged bundles set with constricting retainer rings. But once again, it takes capable workers working in an environment that requires consistent levels of quality. These issues have evaded your observations.
While I haven't sat in a "handmade" car of late, when I last sat in a vehicle with a body made by a carrossier, the fit and finish was the equal of any turned out on an assembly line. As a matter of fact, the hand-selected hides for the seats, were even a masterpiece of quality and care. Each stitch rolled and waxed into place. Sorry bud, hand made is not be an excuse for inconsistent quality.
What is the issue? Hand made quality doesn't last? I really wasn't commenting on wear or abuse, though I dsagree with your assertion that a handmade brush will not stand up to use as well as a machine-made brush. It was INCONSISTENT quality that I find disturbing, especially in a product that sells for a premium.
Now since you appear to have been somewhat overly dramatic, let us turn for a moment to a more analytical approach. You seem to believe that handmade (FULLY so?) indicates that quality must be inconsistent. Do you really believe that everyone making brushes by hand for Simpsons has the same capacity for quality? (SKILL?) Do you believe that there are not apprentices and journeymen making brushes there, only master craftsman? Do you really think all their skills are equal?
Reproduceable quality, contrary to your histrionics and assertions, does not require a machine-made product, only skill and attention to detail on the part of those producing the product and a process geared to maintain quality. Hand-made does not mean that each piece need be unique. Blood, sweat, and tears? Come now. That might cut it in NIMBY country, but does not stand muster elsewhere. Man up Joel!
Measuring, weighing, and using the same shaping boxes can ensure consistent quality when the makers are directed to produce and maintain a particular level of quality. Hand selection of badger hair meeting specific (and uncompromising) standards of quality ensures the consistent look and feel from year to year. While the culling of badgers is not an exacting art, the selection and grading of their contribution to the brush makers' art goes a long way to overcome seasonal variation. These qualities are best evaluated by skilled hands and eyes, not machines and that is what I expect when I pay a premium for a brush. This is one of the complaints against machine-made brushes, that there is no human ensuring the level of quality especially becuase the cost to do this selection is not warranted by the cheaper items. Hand knotting can consistently produce brushes superior to machine-produced plugged bundles set with constricting retainer rings. But once again, it takes capable workers working in an environment that requires consistent levels of quality. These issues have evaded your observations.
While I haven't sat in a "handmade" car of late, when I last sat in a vehicle with a body made by a carrossier, the fit and finish was the equal of any turned out on an assembly line. As a matter of fact, the hand-selected hides for the seats, were even a masterpiece of quality and care. Each stitch rolled and waxed into place. Sorry bud, hand made is not be an excuse for inconsistent quality.
joel said:
- Thread starter
- #7
Ron.... what the hell are you talking about? Good lawd, we must be reading different threads!
Joel, I about fell out of my chair with that picture.
that picture is genius.
- Thread starter
- #10
See stickied thread at the top of this category.
Could you take a pic with it up to a ruler so we can see how tall they are?
- Thread starter
- #12
Certainly. When all of the brushes arrive, I'll put a ruler next to them, and put them in order - tallest to shortest.obsessis said:
joel said:
Break the news...who are all of the contenders?
Randy
- Thread starter
- #14
rtaylor61 said:
Not 100% certain yet.... see the "contender list is growing" post for updates though... as the list IS growing!
- Thread starter
- #15
rtaylor61 said:
Randy,
So far I have purchased or will be attaining the following brushes (knock on wood - hopefully)
1.) Simpson PJ3 Super
2.) SR 3824 Finest Silvertip
3.) Plisson White
4.) Kent BK4 Silvertip
5.) Superior Brushes Medium Super
6.) Edwin Jagger Silvertip
7.) Vulfix Silvertip
8.) Shavemac Silvertip
Still trying to figure out the Rooney situation, and attempting to rustle up a Muehle - Pinsel and a Dovo in Silvertip. If I can get them all - I will have a representative from every major brush manufacturer, which would be incredibly neat.
Joel,
I wouldn't even think about a Dovo brush if i were you........
recently i ordered the Dovo ebony handled silvertip wioth a 30 mm knot from Classicshaving and i sent it back right away; i never saw a shaving brush with this price tag ($135,-) with such bad badger bristles and such a cheap looking wooden handle....i was disappointed; and for me, as a collector, it means a lot when i return a shaving brush; never did this before; (this is by no means an offense to CS BTW...)
But then again, you got to draw your own conclusions by testing one i guess....
Peter
I wouldn't even think about a Dovo brush if i were you........
recently i ordered the Dovo ebony handled silvertip wioth a 30 mm knot from Classicshaving and i sent it back right away; i never saw a shaving brush with this price tag ($135,-) with such bad badger bristles and such a cheap looking wooden handle....i was disappointed; and for me, as a collector, it means a lot when i return a shaving brush; never did this before; (this is by no means an offense to CS BTW...)
But then again, you got to draw your own conclusions by testing one i guess....
Peter
- Thread starter
- #17
Unbelievable news....
R.A. Rooney, as well as Muehle - Pinsel will be submitting brushes for the comparison, bringing the group up to a WHOPPING 10!! There will be a representative from EVERY major manufacture of shaving brushes in the world, save for Dovo (as of right now).
Time to get excited fellas!
R.A. Rooney, as well as Muehle - Pinsel will be submitting brushes for the comparison, bringing the group up to a WHOPPING 10!! There will be a representative from EVERY major manufacture of shaving brushes in the world, save for Dovo (as of right now).
Time to get excited fellas!
Joel, with so many brushes to compare, I think you will need to send some to me to help you.
- Thread starter
- #19
Austin said:Joel, with so many brushes to compare, I think you will need to send some to me to help you.
Andrew,
I couldn't agree more... send me your address and i'll get a Burma Shave brush out in the mail to you today!
Joel,
We need to split this thread or remove or re-size some of the pics. I had time to thaw a chicken while this thing was loading! And I'm on a T1 line!
Randy
We need to split this thread or remove or re-size some of the pics. I had time to thaw a chicken while this thing was loading!
And I'm on a T1 line!Randy
