Yes, Ark slurry is not very user-friendly. Proper (to your needs) surface prep can provide some pretty nice edges.
Bridging Gaps In Full Ark Progression
- Thread starter lightfoot
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- Thread starter
- #42
Here’s a look at the progress I’ve made preparing the surfaces of two stones. Still some evening out to do though but this seems to be a worth while direction. No more edge chipping or deep gouges from either stone.
This 2 minute video can only be viewed here on this thread.
This 2 minute video can only be viewed here on this thread.
As the video shows, either the stone is not as flat as you think, or the stone is not homogeneous.
Test for flatness, mark a grid with a sharpie, not pencil. If flat a Fine India stone or 1k should remove all the ink in 10-20 laps. It is a simple, quick and definitive test.
If not flat, lap with a Coarse Silicone Carbide stone and 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide or 60 grit Diamond powder.
If the stone is flat, it’s the stone and it may or may not deliver the results you wish. It that case, stone face prep can/may deliver. As said several times in this thread, individual stone composition plays a large role, and the only way is to test each stone face prepped with different grits, it may perform even if the stone face does not appear uniform.
First ensure the stone face is flat and smooth.
Test for flatness, mark a grid with a sharpie, not pencil. If flat a Fine India stone or 1k should remove all the ink in 10-20 laps. It is a simple, quick and definitive test.
If not flat, lap with a Coarse Silicone Carbide stone and 60 grit loose Silicone Carbide or 60 grit Diamond powder.
If the stone is flat, it’s the stone and it may or may not deliver the results you wish. It that case, stone face prep can/may deliver. As said several times in this thread, individual stone composition plays a large role, and the only way is to test each stone face prepped with different grits, it may perform even if the stone face does not appear uniform.
First ensure the stone face is flat and smooth.
I'm doing surface work on an Ark now actually. Currently going through the 4th session of 400x SIC on 600x W/D.
- Thread starter
- #45
It’s a lot of work. Please let us know how the surface turns out!
I’ve had some issues with the stones beginning to convex a little on SIC. How do you prevent that? I think the glass sheet that I was using started to dish out sooner than I was expecting….
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I use a flat piece of marble or a granite reference block from woodcraft. Either one I check with a known machined straight edge across 6-8 directions. I put a piece of cubitron paper on top, then SiC powder. Then I do my work. All the rest is done at the coarsest grit I can find, usually 60.
If you don’t put down a guard surface, the powder will wear your reference surface. Different materials wear at different rates, but they all wear. If you use guard paper, the reference surface will stay flat orders of magnitude longer.
The cubitron backing is siliconized paper, and very durable. The ceramic grit cuts far longer than standard paper as a bonus. ( Jonathan Katz Moses did a big sandpaper shootout if you want data. My experience matches his.) I do the bulk of the work on a worn piece, then do what @H Brad Boonshaft recommended. If not flat, I replace the worn guard paper with a fresh sheet and work without powder, using the whole sheet as equally as I can. Then repeat the flatness test.
I use paper like it doesn’t cost money. Especially on the coarse step. Once the ark is flat, it’s flat basically your whole life. Don’t need to skimp.
Once it passes 2-4 flatness checks on fresh paper, I start moving up grits. Be creative with how you repeat the flatness check, altering angles and reference block positions. Try to fail the flatness test. If you manage to fail, more work or a better reference surface is needed. If you fail to fail (hah), then you’re done, and only then.
The following grits take much less time each. The most important step is the coarsest.
Following steps are the same, but with finer grits. Good to try to fail the flatness test in the middle of the grit progression to double check.
If you ever fail the flatness check, go back to step 1. It hurts, but you’llbe happier with the results. A not 100% flat stone CAN be used, but you need to know what you’re about. Dead flat is easier for a beginner (like me). And dead flat is easier to achieve than you think. You just need to be brutally honest with yourself about your progress and try to fail. When you can’t fail a flatness test, welcome home.
Put on a good movie with noise canceling headphones and get into a rhythm.
Here’s what I did. Ymmv.
www.badgerandblade.com
If you don’t put down a guard surface, the powder will wear your reference surface. Different materials wear at different rates, but they all wear. If you use guard paper, the reference surface will stay flat orders of magnitude longer.
The cubitron backing is siliconized paper, and very durable. The ceramic grit cuts far longer than standard paper as a bonus. ( Jonathan Katz Moses did a big sandpaper shootout if you want data. My experience matches his.) I do the bulk of the work on a worn piece, then do what @H Brad Boonshaft recommended. If not flat, I replace the worn guard paper with a fresh sheet and work without powder, using the whole sheet as equally as I can. Then repeat the flatness test.
I use paper like it doesn’t cost money. Especially on the coarse step. Once the ark is flat, it’s flat basically your whole life. Don’t need to skimp.
Once it passes 2-4 flatness checks on fresh paper, I start moving up grits. Be creative with how you repeat the flatness check, altering angles and reference block positions. Try to fail the flatness test. If you manage to fail, more work or a better reference surface is needed. If you fail to fail (hah), then you’re done, and only then.
The following grits take much less time each. The most important step is the coarsest.
Following steps are the same, but with finer grits. Good to try to fail the flatness test in the middle of the grit progression to double check.
If you ever fail the flatness check, go back to step 1. It hurts, but you’llbe happier with the results. A not 100% flat stone CAN be used, but you need to know what you’re about. Dead flat is easier for a beginner (like me). And dead flat is easier to achieve than you think. You just need to be brutally honest with yourself about your progress and try to fail. When you can’t fail a flatness test, welcome home.
Put on a good movie with noise canceling headphones and get into a rhythm.
Here’s what I did. Ymmv.
Lapping an Arkansas in excruciating detail
Inspired by this thread, I thought I'd post up how I flatten and dress a stone. I'm dressing a hard black Ark with unknown branding, a $20 used tool store find that was finished very rough, maybe 36 grit on all surfaces when purchased. I was hoping I might luck into something like Keith...
www.badgerandblade.com
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Got to make sure you're plate is flat. I ground a glass plate down until it started convexing my stones so I flipped it but that's a short term solution because once the other side grinds out the glass will get really weak. I need to find a 1" Pyrex plate. That stuff is stupid hard. I hear steel cookie sheets work for a little while but you need to be sitting on something flat.
You're saying you put your SIC powder on your sandpaper, right? I've read posts/ stories from "the day" that said carpenters would throw fine emry dust on washitas and hard Arks to speed them up. I need to buy a cheap fine India pocket stone that's really crappy and sheds grit to try as a slurry stone on on my black ark from Dan. I've raised diamond plate slurry, used jnats(pretty decent on a black ark), used coticule slurry(didn't like it), I use Tam slurry on novaculite all the time especially for tools. I've got a llyn idwal that will put the most aggressive/ clean tool edge I'm capable of making... if I make a thin Tam O'shanter slurry on top. For knives i don't notice too much difference between my darker ones and lighter ones if I'm making a slurry. I bet if you need a workhorse, India stone dust would be the ticket and the edge finish the combo would have would probably be pretty nice.I use a flat piece of marble or a granite reference block from woodcraft. Either one I check with a known machined straight edge across 6-8 directions. I put a piece of cubitron paper on top, then SiC powder. Then I do my work. All the rest is done at the coarsest grit I can find, usually 60.
If you don’t put down a guard surface, the powder will wear your reference surface. Different materials wear at different rates, but they all wear. If you use guard paper, the reference surface will stay flat orders of magnitude longer.
The cubitron backing is siliconized paper, and very durable. The ceramic grit cuts far longer than standard paper as a bonus. ( Jonathan Katz Moses did a big sandpaper shootout if you want data. My experience matches his.) I do the bulk of the work on a worn piece, then do what @H Brad Boonshaft recommended. If not flat, I replace the worn guard paper with a fresh sheet and work without powder, using the whole sheet as equally as I can. Then repeat the flatness test.
I use paper like it doesn’t cost money. Especially on the coarse step. Once the ark is flat, it’s flat basically your whole life. Don’t need to skimp.
Once it passes 2-4 flatness checks on fresh paper, I start moving up grits. Be creative with how you repeat the flatness check, altering angles and reference block positions. Try to fail the flatness test. If you manage to fail, more work or a better reference surface is needed. If you fail to fail (hah), then you’re done, and only then.
The following grits take much less time each. The most important step is the coarsest.
Following steps are the same, but with finer grits. Good to try to fail the flatness test in the middle of the grit progression to double check.
If you ever fail the flatness check, go back to step 1. It hurts, but you’llbe happier with the results. A not 100% flat stone CAN be used, but you need to know what you’re about. Dead flat is easier for a beginner (like me). And dead flat is easier to achieve than you think. You just need to be brutally honest with yourself about your progress and try to fail. When you can’t fail a flatness test, welcome home.
Put on a good movie with noise canceling headphones and get into a rhythm.
Here’s what I did. Ymmv.
Lapping an Arkansas in excruciating detail
Inspired by this thread, I thought I'd post up how I flatten and dress a stone. I'm dressing a hard black Ark with unknown branding, a $20 used tool store find that was finished very rough, maybe 36 grit on all surfaces when purchased. I was hoping I might luck into something like Keith...
Never heard of it. Sounds wonderful! Thanks for the info!!
Man, I'd sure like to know more about the different types. I believe I can identify a couple at most. I've always been curious about some of the Trans stones I see that look like compressed sand. The picture's I've seen make the stone look very granular in structure form the unlapped side view. Then for color comparison, there are white, grey, pink, butter scotch, clam broth, black. Holy cow. I'm color blind as all get out. Exactly what color is Clam Broth?
Good to see you posting more again, Gamma. Following your advice, always give me a big keenness bump. Thank you!
- Thread starter
- #51
Where’s a good lapidary wheel when you need one?I use a flat piece of marble or a granite reference block from woodcraft. Either one I check with a known machined straight edge across 6-8 directions. I put a piece of cubitron paper on top, then SiC powder. Then I do my work. All the rest is done at the coarsest grit I can find, usually 60.
If you don’t put down a guard surface, the powder will wear your reference surface. Different materials wear at different rates, but they all wear. If you use guard paper, the reference surface will stay flat orders of magnitude longer.
The cubitron backing is siliconized paper, and very durable. The ceramic grit cuts far longer than standard paper as a bonus. ( Jonathan Katz Moses did a big sandpaper shootout if you want data. My experience matches his.) I do the bulk of the work on a worn piece, then do what @H Brad Boonshaft recommended. If not flat, I replace the worn guard paper with a fresh sheet and work without powder, using the whole sheet as equally as I can. Then repeat the flatness test.
I use paper like it doesn’t cost money. Especially on the coarse step. Once the ark is flat, it’s flat basically your whole life. Don’t need to skimp.
Once it passes 2-4 flatness checks on fresh paper, I start moving up grits. Be creative with how you repeat the flatness check, altering angles and reference block positions. Try to fail the flatness test. If you manage to fail, more work or a better reference surface is needed. If you fail to fail (hah), then you’re done, and only then.
The following grits take much less time each. The most important step is the coarsest.
Following steps are the same, but with finer grits. Good to try to fail the flatness test in the middle of the grit progression to double check.
If you ever fail the flatness check, go back to step 1. It hurts, but you’llbe happier with the results. A not 100% flat stone CAN be used, but you need to know what you’re about. Dead flat is easier for a beginner (like me). And dead flat is easier to achieve than you think. You just need to be brutally honest with yourself about your progress and try to fail. When you can’t fail a flatness test, welcome home.
Put on a good movie with noise canceling headphones and get into a rhythm.
Here’s what I did. Ymmv.
Lapping an Arkansas in excruciating detail
Inspired by this thread, I thought I'd post up how I flatten and dress a stone. I'm dressing a hard black Ark with unknown branding, a $20 used tool store find that was finished very rough, maybe 36 grit on all surfaces when purchased. I was hoping I might luck into something like Keith...
All kidding aside the advantage of a lapidary wheel is that it’s always pulling material away in one direction.
It's a lot of work and it's a major PITA because I am extremely fussy about this stage and I will spend an hour getting the last 10% of the surface where I want it.
Using minimal amounts of SIC, and making sure it is down evenly helps stop it from building up at the edges and creating a curve. Glass wears too fast under SIC usually.
I put SIC on w/d paper on top of a very flat steel plate. The w/d paper is a sacrificial surface, it prevents the SIC from killing the plate under it. It also seems to help keep the SIC in place. Lastly, it interacts with the loose SIC in a positive way for the lapping refinement. SIC is friable but the fracture is rough and the w/d helps tame it.
I was lapping engine parts like this back in the 70s.... works well when I pay attention and spend the time to figure out which SIC powder does what on which w/d paper. I get a particular 3M 600x paper in 50 sheet boxes and when I run out I re-order the same part number. Same with the SIC..
Clam Broth is that grey/trans/glassy look, old time barber shops used have a lot of 'clambroth' glassware for storing all sorts of stuff...to me, real clambroth has to have a slight 'grey' component in it, but you'll find people calling white glass 'clambroth'. I don't agree with that practice.
To me - this is actual Clambroth
And there are some Trans Arks that look like that. I personally don't care about color perse, esp that 'butterscotch' jazz. Texture though, yes. They're all polygonal tri-facet but it's not quite all that simple. A good Trans is a good Trans though, its the softer stones where the variations really hit home and force the user to adjust - which is why I hate the 'formula' rhetoric. Just like some 8k synth stones aren't 8k, some hard Arks are not like other hard Arks. Same for the Soft and Washita.
Which one do you use, if you don't mind saying? I've only used a couple different wet/dry papers, but there seems to be a significant difference in how they cut.
I'll check later - I think all 3M w/d is good, so I don't think that it matters which one so much as using the same one all the time adds to the consistency factor.
Appreciate it. I currently have 3m w/d, but I've only used it once so I don't have a real clear picture of how it acts. But it seems, possibly, less aggressive than the off brand that I had got at the hobby store.
- Thread starter
- #57
I’ve been using the black paper. I think it’s SIC.
02036 / 213Q
Lightweight black Alox paper
For straight up 600x lapping, no SIC involved,
02000 / 413Q
Lightweight black SIC paper
I use the 3m stuff mostly because it lasts.
The cheap paper from the hardware store shreds too fast.
Thanks. Looks like I have the AlOx version at the moment.
- Thread starter
- #60
1:43 AM Friday morning:
1st major shave success with Arks jumping from 5K synthetic. But work at 5K has to be really amped up…
-5K reset
- 2:1 ratio (Trans./Hard) X10
- 3:1 ratio (Trans./Hard) X8
- 4:1 ratio X5
- 5:1 X3
- 6:1 X2
- Strop
Butter smooth shave. These are loose numbers just to provide a general outline of the process. Utilizing two stones in ratios helped speed up the process. I’m not aware of anyone jumping to arks from 5K. My long-term goal is jumping from 3K or Washita.
1st major shave success with Arks jumping from 5K synthetic. But work at 5K has to be really amped up…
-5K reset
- 2:1 ratio (Trans./Hard) X10
- 3:1 ratio (Trans./Hard) X8
- 4:1 ratio X5
- 5:1 X3
- 6:1 X2
- Strop
Butter smooth shave. These are loose numbers just to provide a general outline of the process. Utilizing two stones in ratios helped speed up the process. I’m not aware of anyone jumping to arks from 5K. My long-term goal is jumping from 3K or Washita.
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