Bridging Gaps In Full Ark Progression

[lightfoot]

What’s going on everyone. I hope this thread starts out with a more productive premise than the last one I posted.

So I keep running in the same situation while attempting a full Arkansas stone progression. I’ll pick up some visible swarf early on with each stone and then all of a sudden it just seems to stop. There seems to be gaps between stones that I don’t know how to bridge.

For example a translucent may help clean up what the hard Arkansas left behind but only up to a point. And honestly I see the same phenomenon between the soft and hard (based on Dan’s rating system).

I am very unclear how to effectively bridge gaps between these stones.

I’ve thought about changing the surface texture on each stone (bringing it from 220 up to 600 or more perhaps) bringing the texture up progressively as needed while honing. I’m not sure that having each side at two different grit levels is incremental enough.

I have a feeling that I’m going to need a lot of W/D….

 

[captaincaed]

I found the standard stone progression, each lapped to 600 grit worked well. Washita, soft, hard, true hard, black. That got the razor tree topping, probably HHT 2-3.

Ark cutting speed doesn’t seem to improve much from a coarse surface, to me. I think @cotedupy wrote about cutting speed being tied more to softness and porosity that surface grit/texture. I lapped a washita very coarse, and it didn’t improve speed, just left a terrible edge.

Here was my progression on an antique store razor from bevel set to shaving (although not brilliant) finish. Windex and water lapping fluids

 

[Steve56]

I’m no Ark expert, but when they stop making swarf, you might want to de-glaze the stone. Try a piece of King 1k on the coarser ones or maybe rub two of them together. Hope this helps.

 

[Herrenberg]

Oh, man, a new rabbit hole I had never conceived of: a full Ark progression! Wow.

Must not order stones to fill in this sequence. I'm not at all curious about it. Really.

 

[lightfoot]

Yes, 600# seems to be the go-to prep. I’ve used it many times but it just seems to glaze fast for me. Not an issue though as I may need to refresh more frequently and see where that goes.

 

[captaincaed]

It does glaze pretty quick. But 10s doing figure 8s on a piece of W/D paper honestly does wonders.

It’s funny I hated arks for their slow cutting when I got into kitchen knives. After several years with water stones, flattening, etc, I’ve really come back around to find some joy with arks. For heavy lifting and certain toothy kitchen edges, I’m sticking with water stones. But for deburring, maintenance honing and razors, they can be really useful tools in the kit.

I’m still reading about mythic islands of keenness and smoothness, so I keep practicing, trying to improve.

 

[lightfoot]

I found the standard stone progression, each lapped to 600 grit worked well. Washita, soft, hard, true hard, black. That got the razor tree topping, probably HHT 2-3.

Ark cutting speed doesn’t seem to improve much from a coarse surface, to me. I think @cotedupy wrote about cutting speed being tied more to softness and porosity that surface grit/texture. I lapped a washita very coarse, and it didn’t improve speed, just left a terrible edge.

Here was my progression on an antique store razor from bevel set to shaving (although not brilliant) finish. Windex and water lapping fluids View attachment 1567714

Yes I’ve found Ark-Only edges to lack the same level of refinement as more popular systems both natural and synthetic but I still think there’s a way to at least produce an edge that’s fairly comfortable although it may not be the kind of edge that someone that hones for others would necessarily send out.

It may just produce a different kind of edge. An edge that only the one honing could love….

 

[Herrenberg]

It’s funny I hated arks for their slow cutting when I got into kitchen knives. After several years with water stones, flattening, etc, I’ve really come back around to find some joy with arks. For heavy lifting and certain toothy kitchen edges, I’m sticking with water stones. But for deburring, maintenance honing and razors, they can be really useful tools in the kit.

Dunno, I'm really liking the toothy kitchen knife edge I get on a Lily White Washita or Soft Ark (Dan's). Shapton Glass 1000 -> Lily White Washita is working well for me for white steel kitchen knives.

 

[2bit_collie]

I have had luck with nearly-all Arkansas progressions - with the caveat that I’m counting Washitas as being fair game for an Ark progression. Typically used:
2k Shapton to set the bevel. I can set a bevel on a kitchen knife with my coarser Washitas, but I don’t like using pressure on my razors, so I always bevel set with a synthetic.
Then a coarse Washita followed by a finer Washita (both say in the 2.1-2.2 range), but perhaps the same stone with a different finish on each side. So to be clear that is two steps, #2, and #3. In particular I have a calico Herter’s (frankly it looks a bit like your Soft Ark), where I sometimes use both sides for this part. Honestly I sometimes wonder if I would get the same final result if I just used the same side of the same stone twice.
#4 Then the pre-finisher, which is something in the 2.4-2.5 range. I have a hard Washita, a hard Ark, and a translucent butterscotch that all fall in this range.
#5 True hard (2.6+) I have 2 Dan’s stones in this range.
This will give me something that should cut really well, but might feel a touch harsh. I then sometimes do a 0.5-0.25-0.1u diamond-pasted balsa progression to get it both sharp and smooth.

I do have a soft Ark, but for whatever reason I always reach for a Washita instead.

One variation on this, sometimes step #2 is a Shapton 5k and then I go to a coarse Washita that is step #3.

Of course all natural stones are a little bit different. I‘ve used mine enough to have an idea where they fit in the spectrum, so a given step may not make much progress, but at least I rarely seem to be going backwards.

 

[Wid]

I know we are talking typical Arkansas stones here but my progression is still all from Arkansas..Scott already knows where I'm going here.

Set the bevel on a Washita, if the edge doesn't have a lot of damage, if it does it goes to a Chosera first. Then on to a Coe Bethesda Black then to a Coe Dakota Creek. For finishing I have either a Norton Hard (black) or a Norton Translucent. I haven't used a traditional Arkansas stone for middle work. I haven't but I could shave off the Dota Creek, it's a nice stone and great bridge to the Nortons.

 

[Gamma]

There are many grades within each subsection. So, a hard Ark can be just barely out of the 'soft' zone, or very hard and nearly into the upper registers with Translucent stones and their cousins.

For Washita through Hard - sharpening heavy blades, the perceived gaps are easily filled with changes in pressure, honing medium, and surface prep.
With razors, the scope for altering pressure has more limitations.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of staying on the stone longer. Other times, less finish on the working surface, maybe change from oil to water. A real Washita, Soft, Hard and Trans Ark set should be able to be set up for razors without sensing unmanageable gaps. But if the Washita is very soft and the Soft Ark is sorta hard, then there might be a challenge with honing a full hollow razor. At that point, shopping for a softer Soft or a harder Washita is in order I think.
Hopefully that's not confusing.

I've done a Coarse, Medium, Fine progression on Washita when I had all 3 on hand and it was sorta gap-less for most of the ground work. But that's not a feasible thing for most people most of the time. In theory, one could do that, then move to a triptych of soft Arks, and the same for Hard Arks... It would be nice to have 9 arks set up in a sequential order of hardness. I've actually come pretty close to that but it's just too much to deal with. I needed my bench space back and ended that insanity. But having a rainbow of Arks to pick from helps a lot if trying to be 'all Ark all the time' is the game plan.

 

[CongaJon]

I found the standard stone progression, each lapped to 600 grit worked well. Washita, soft, hard, true hard, black. That got the razor tree topping, probably HHT 2-3.

Ark cutting speed doesn’t seem to improve much from a coarse surface, to me. I think @cotedupy wrote about cutting speed being tied more to softness and porosity that surface grit/texture. I lapped a washita very coarse, and it didn’t improve speed, just left a terrible edge.

Here was my progression on an antique store razor from bevel set to shaving (although not brilliant) finish. Windex and water lapping fluids View attachment 1567714

Cap'n, do you have a name for that stone on the left? I was just marveling at the looks of mine when oiled up. Sure looks similar!

 

[captaincaed]

Cap'n, do you have a name for that stone on the left? I was just marveling at the looks of mine when oiled up. Sure looks similar!

View attachment 1567886

It’s labeled as a washita but I think it’s closer to a calico soft. It’s definitely a bit more friable than a true soft, but also more opaque than a truly good old washita. I wish there were a term for them because I like them. They’re pretty good fast cutters but don’t fall neatly into other categories. I agree they’re really attractive stones. Just lucked into a second this weekend.

 

[lightfoot]

There are many grades within each subsection. So, a hard Ark can be just barely out of the 'soft' zone, or very hard and nearly into the upper registers with Translucent stones and their cousins.

For Washita through Hard - sharpening heavy blades, the perceived gaps are easily filled with changes in pressure, honing medium, and surface prep.
With razors, the scope for altering pressure has more limitations.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of staying on the stone longer. Other times, less finish on the working surface, maybe change from oil to water. A real Washita, Soft, Hard and Trans Ark set should be able to be set up for razors without sensing unmanageable gaps. But if the Washita is very soft and the Soft Ark is sorta hard, then there might be a challenge with honing a full hollow razor. At that point, shopping for a softer Soft or a harder Washita is in order I think.
Hopefully that's not confusing.

I've done a Coarse, Medium, Fine progression on Washita when I had all 3 on hand and it was sorta gap-less for most of the ground work. But that's not a feasible thing for most people most of the time. In theory, one could do that, then move to a triptych of soft Arks, and the same for Hard Arks... It would be nice to have 9 arks set up in a sequential order of hardness. I've actually come pretty close to that but it's just too much to deal with. I needed my bench space back and ended that insanity. But having a rainbow of Arks to pick from helps a lot if trying to be 'all Ark all the time' is the game plan.

Now the challenge of a Ark-Only progression is becoming a bit more clear and maybe these points were what I’ve been trying to get some clarity on for a long time.

Yes, I definitely get that there’s a lot of variance within each grade. It’s almost staggering if when you look at the possibilities. It’s almost like you could need 3-4 of each grade hypothetically. It’s like every stage might require an Ark sub-progression or an equivalent way to replicate that effect which a single stone from each grade is unlikely to cover.

I’ve tried going back and forth between oil and water but without any sense of direction.

Lots of food for thought from everyone. I’m inclined to think that putting in some of the Coe offerings early in the progression maybe the most viable alternative to having a 9-12 stone Arkansas progression.

 

[duke762]

'all Ark all the time'

I did that for about 2 or 3 years. I struggled mightily, shaved with many laughable edges, cursed the variable performance of softer Arks, enjoyed myself, learned a lot, got the tee shirt and decided to fill in gaps with a Coticule and a Silk stone. Well at least I was gonna' be all natural all the time....I've decided to switch to a full progression of Shapton Pro's and save my Ark work for Blacks /Trans. This was no easy decision for me, I have a phobia about using water as a medium with steel. My phobia's have proved unfounded, my razors haven't turned to piles of rust. I'm now happy as a clam. The real fun here lies in taking the easier path. Ark progressions are a challenge and seemed to be hit or miss for me due to the stone, breaking down, glazing, etc. I only use Black/Trans finishers, so sweet....

Shaving Nirvana is achievable.

 

[JPO]

You can hone the bevel plane in sections. In my opinion there is no good reason to gouge up the apex with a coarse stone when you don't need to. This can allow you to play with the pressure more, because you are not risking damaging the apex, which needs to be repaired with the following stones.
This is not a full Arkansas progression. However, i think it proves a point.
The first image is from a razor that was honed on a convex 800 grit Naniwa. This could also have been replace by a coarse Arkansas. The deeper striations do not reach all the way to the apex intentionally.

The next image is after a flat translucent Arkansas stone. Because this stone is working on a much smaller surface area on the bevel, the speed and effective pressure is higher. You can effect the effective normal stress without increasing the force by reducing the surface are. Since the bevel shoulder is not in contact with the stone, you move the abrasive action towards the apex.
Ideally this should be done in three steps to avoid overstressing the edge near the apex. This was just to test the limits. Going from a 2m radius stone to a flat stone is generally not recommended.

This was just a test that took 5 min. If i had spent more time on the final stone, or added one step the results might have been better. The razor shaved just fine.

So there is different ways to bridge the gap between stones. In my opinion these Arkansas stones works best with some pressure. To avoid flexing the bevel and lifting the apex off the stone, reducing the active area is quite effective.

No tape was used. I would not consider this as a micro bevel.

 

[lightfoot]

I’m going to attempt to work with the following setup and see where I land:

-Unknown Washita
-Current production Norton Soft (Circa 2010)
-Dan’s Hard
-Semi-Current production Norton Translucent (Circa 1977)

I actually managed a shave off the Dan’s Hard. Decent shave but lacking in the post shave. Reminded me of shaving off the Norton 8,000 in fact.

 

[cotedupy]

I think @cotedupy wrote about cutting speed being tied more to softness and porosity that surface grit/texture.

The cutting speed of all Arks is certainly tied to pressure and the 'pore' structure. Though when translucent/black arks to finish a razor you're not anywhere like the amount of pressure needed to really notice this. It's generally much more apparent on Soft Arks and Washitas when used for knives, tools &c. I do find that conditioning or roughing the surface of harder stones can mimic the effect of using more pressure, but they do burnish quite quickly - it's an unescapable thing one just has to deal with.

More generally in answer to the original q... to bridge gaps with pretty much any kind of natural stone, and particularly for arks, working from an atoma slurry and gradually diluting will give you a completely seamless progression.

In fact in this case you probably don't need more than one stone; an Atoma slurried translucent ark is extremely fast for a short while, I've set bevels in that way quite happily. Dilute it down, use the fact the stone burnishes to your advantage, and you could easily use just that from start to finish.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

An Ark progression can be as simple as 2 stones. A hard Ark and a Translucent or Black. The trick is finding the right stones.

Or altering the stone faces. Lately I have been experimenting with using India and Silicone Carbide stones in place of Wet & Dry. We know that once an Ark stone is flat the face can easily be altered to make it more aggressive or smoothed for a finer finish.

With India and Silicone Carbide stones you have 6 different stone grits, India will cut differently from Silicon Carbide on an Ark, Carbide generally being more aggressive. You can literally hear and feel the difference between the stones in use.

Norton India stones, Coarse, (150) Medium, (240) Fine (400)

Norton Silicone Carbide stones, Coarse, (120) Medium, (180) Fine (320)

As with Arks, throw the grit numbers out the widow, the numbers do not relate to surface performance in the traditionally way, except as a guide to a progression, Coarse to Fine. Add to that the two different grits Aluminum Oxide and Silicone Carbide perform very differently.

So, as said a lot depends on the stones you are trying to alter, they are Natural stones after all. I have been experimenting with Vintage Lilly White Washita and Vintage Norton Translucent, to minimize the variables, you will need to experiment with the grit combinations to get the results you want.

With the 6 grits you have a wide range of stone face options and can easily produce a progression of your choice on 4 stone faces. These stones are dirt cheap; I probably have a dozen or more that I have bought near new at swap meets and garage sales for a dollar or two. I have soaked them and removed all oil and swarf.

Once a stone is flat lapping a new face is literally a 5-minute job. I mark a grid on the stone with a wide point Sharpie lay the stone on the bottom of my sink on a piece of drawer liner and lap the stone flat, remove all the sharpie with the Course 120 grit Silicone Carbide to establish a base line. This will tell you how flat your stone, really is. Note how evenly the sharpie is removed, or not.

Both stones should be wet, you want to make a paste/slurry enough to keep the stones wet and from sticking, but not enough to wash off the grit, experiment.

You should be able to remove all the sharpie ink in 10-20 laps if you stone is flat.

On the Washita, I lap one side to Silicon Carbide Coarse,120 the other to Norton India Fine, 400. Bevel the edges with 120 and refine with the 400. The edges will be sharp if not beveled or rounded.

The Translucent I first lap with 120 Silicon Carbide (remove Sharpie Grid Mark) Then re-grid and lap to India Course,150. Lap the other side to 120 Silicone carbide, up to fine Silicone Carbide and finish on 400, Fine India.

Be sure to mark with sharpie on the end, face side up, which side it finished to which grit (BEFORE) you lap. It is very easy to get mixed up and find yourself lapping the side you just finished.

Experiment with the grits until you get a progression that works for you, with your stone.

If you find your stone is not as flat as you thought, (sharpie is not removing easily or evenly, lap the stone flat with the 120 grit Silicon Carbide stone and some 60-grit loose Silicone Carbide or better yet 60 grit Diamond powder. It is inexpensive on eBay. Sprinkle on a small amount, what you can pick up with a wood coffee stir stick from about 12 inches will give you a nice distribution and lap away. If you remove a sharpie grid 4-5 times your stone should be flat.

60 grit Diamond and the 120-grit side of a Silicon Carbide stone is twice as fast as 60 grit Silicone Carbide. The grit becomes imbedded in the Silicone Carbide stone face, becomes a “lapping plate”, and really cuts fast after a few laps, you can feel and see the difference. A small baggie of 60 grit Diamond powder will probably do 20 + stones, you do not need much.

Grid mark the stone and if the 400 India will remove all the sharpie in under 20 laps, you are flat. Pencil will just wash off and you are just kidding yourself. Sharpie must be lapped off, no B/S. Wash your stone well in hot soapy water rinse well and run a test razor or knife on the stone to ensure no Diamonds are left behind.

If you stone face burnishes and is not cutting as you wish, you can resurface in about 10-15 laps. You don’t need to Sharpie Grid mark, but it is a good guide to track your progress and the flatness of the stone. Dead flat is not the goal, smooth and even face is. Flatness, (sharpie removal) is just a tool to mark your progress.

As said, your stone is the biggest factor in progression and performance, but with a 6 stone potential finishes and 4 stone faces, this gives you a lot more options.

Personally, I do not do a Full Ark progression, but I can get a very nice shaving edge from a Lilly White Washita with a 400 India stone finish. Even better with a Translucent.

 

[captaincaed]

In fact in this case you probably don't need more than one stone; an Atoma slurried translucent ark is extremely fast for a short while, I've set bevels in that way quite happily. Dilute it down, use the fact the stone burnishes to your advantage, and you could easily use just that from start to finish.

I've done this as well. The slurry cuts quite well. For me, It was pretty hard on my diamond plate.