I do disagree with you. I think your simple analysis doesn't account for the change in the blade's moment of inertia when it's twisted within a slant razor, and that is exactly what makes the blade within a torsion type slant razor stiffer. Even some simple experiments with a business card, on my desk right now, show a marked increase in scraping stiffness when the card is twisted as it would be in a torsion slant razor. In a razor, I can't say whether or not that affects the shave. However, it's not right to say that the blade stiffness is the same.
Blade tension/stiffness
- Thread starter wulfgar1976
- Start date
I do disagree with you. I think your simple analysis doesn't account for the change in the blade's moment of inertia when it's twisted within a slant razor, and that is exactly what makes the blade within a torsion type slant razor stiffer. Even some simple experiments with a business card, on my desk right now, show a marked increase in scraping stiffness when the card is twisted as it would be in a torsion slant razor. In a razor, I can't say whether or not that affects the shave. However, it's not right to say that the blade stiffness is the same.
I understand the comparison. If you force a tiny strip of you card to conform to a straight plane between two straight support lines, the tiny strip does not care about what is going on before the support points.
IMO, yes it is noticeably thinner than the German Wilkies I am using. Also,
IMO, yes, it is thinner than the German Wilkies. Feathers are thinner than the Wilkies. One reason I don't buy them. The way my razor(Parker 91R) holds a blade in place does not offer a lot of support for a thin blade.
It's not about what's going on before the blade support points, if I understand your terminology correctly. It's the change in the moment of inertia of the blade between the blade edge and the blade support points. If you stop and think about it, I think you'll realize that that is no longer a simple rectangular cross-section in a slant razor. The size of the strip between the blade support point and the blade edge only affects the magnitude of the difference. Regardless of the size of that strip, assuming it's not infinitesimally small, there is a difference.
This is the only thing you said that I agree with: "The earliest double edge safety razor was originally designed for carbon steel blades that were noticeably thicker than modern blades."
The old three hole blades were much thicker, like posterboard thickness.
Gillette switched from the NEW to the NEW Improved, IIRC, mostly because the razor was cracking the blades. It may have been different models of razors, but blade cracking was a very real problem for the early engineers at Gillette. Gillette Kro-Man blades are rare for precisely this reason. They had a tendency to crack, and as a result, Gillette recalled and destroyed them. Few escaped the recall, and fewer still survived the years between then and now.
Adding a torsion twist to the blade stiffens the blade and makes it more rigid. This is basic engineering stuff. You should not even be questioning this.
At least you admitted your beliefs are opinions, and questioning whether the blade being rigid has any meaningful bearing on the shave is a valid question.
A better question, perhaps would be, "what has the most effect on a helical slant shave, the stiffness of the blade? The curved constantly changing blade angle? The diagonal slicing motion? The combination of all three?
Now i need to try out the different combinations again, by working my way up to the Nodachi OC. Changing the cap adds allot more efficiency. My favorite have been the Masamune with Nodachi base plate.
The more efficient combinations have been a little to much for me for daily use. Maybe the Nacet blade can tame it a little.
The minute "Sherman" stopped talking about the quality of his morning shave and "Mr. Peabody" came out and y'all got technical with your formulas and all is the moment I threw the "English Major" card, began arranging my floppy blades in alphabetical order (as one does) and grabbed a bowl of popcorn...
It is just shavingThe minute "Sherman" stopped talking about the quality of his morning shave and "Mr. Peabody" came out and y'all got technical with your formulas and all is the moment I threw the "English Major" card, began arranging my floppy blades in alphabetical order (as one does) and grabbed a bowl of popcorn...
If you are overthinking, at least you are thinking.
I haven't tried the Nacet with the Masamune cap/Nodachi base yet. I find that combination, even with the slightly negative blade exposure to be a bit more aggressive for me with that large gap. It is just about as efficient (if not slightly more so) as the neutral Nodachi cap/Masamune base for me. I will finish with a third pass ATG and the fool's pass with the smaller gap is more comfortable, so I've tended to use the latter combo more. I guess I should try the Nacet in the larger 0.90 mm gap to see how it goes. I haven't tried the Feather in that one either.
BTW, the shave this morning was Nacet day 2, and it was even more smooth in typical Nacet fashion.
You need to try this combination. The more flexible Nacet blade did make a difference. My default every day option have been a full Masamune or Masamune base plate with the Nodachi cap. Now i am not so sure. The difference i really small, i think.
I tried it again today as a ATG pass after a SR shave. Works greate.
Up until a few years ago, most of my razors were Techs and Superspeeds. As I accumulated morecrazorsi n the coming years, I noticed that many of the oldest razors that were supposed to be "all that", just weren't. My Old Types did shave well with any blade I'd decided to use but they were the exception. My LC's, SC's, Goodwill and Sheratons did well, but were no better than my Techs.
On a whim I got some ultra-cheap carbon steel Treet Black Beauties. They were so-so in my Techs and 'newer' razors, but, as others had already discovered, the thicker & stiffer blades gave great shaves in older razors.
Today I grabbed an Old Type and loaded it with a Treet 'New Edge' Carbon Steel Blade. It was as close as the Black Beauty, but smoother shaving at that problem on my neck under my chin. I was impressed enough that I ordered more for further trials.
Nice thing about the Gillette Slim Adjustables is that extra 1/4 turn on the handle to further secure the blade. other blades that are just OK, shave well in the Slim Adjustable. I can count on a great shave no matter which blade I decide to use.
On a whim I got some ultra-cheap carbon steel Treet Black Beauties. They were so-so in my Techs and 'newer' razors, but, as others had already discovered, the thicker & stiffer blades gave great shaves in older razors.
Today I grabbed an Old Type and loaded it with a Treet 'New Edge' Carbon Steel Blade. It was as close as the Black Beauty, but smoother shaving at that problem on my neck under my chin. I was impressed enough that I ordered more for further trials.
Nice thing about the Gillette Slim Adjustables is that extra 1/4 turn on the handle to further secure the blade. other blades that are just OK, shave well in the Slim Adjustable. I can count on a great shave no matter which blade I decide to use.
How do the Voskhods perform in old type razors? Have heard they too are carbon steel blades.
Voskhods are actually teflon coated stainless steel. I use them a lot in my Techs and Slim Adjustables, but haven't used them any of my 'oldies'
Thanks for the information
I think it is the TORSION aspect of slants, the stiffening and making the blade more rigid, that gives the desired effect. I never felt that the supposed "guillotine" effect of slants gave them an edge.
I find some blades feel thinner than others. Nacet vs Feather for example, the Nacet seems much more rigid and more forgiving, smoother. The Feather always seems to chatter more in razors that don't support the blade much.
For instance, the Nacet gives me a better shave in the Razorine Flatboy than a Feather.
In general the "modern" trend for razors seems to be more tight clamping of the blade. Slants with heavy torsioning of the blade achieve a similar if not superior effect.
Maybe that's indeed why they are now seemingly the next thing on the razor market. But maybe its just a fashion. Just like suddenly gaming mice cannot be light enough. Ultra lightweight mice after years of gamers adding extra weights for balance to them.
Regarding carbon steel and stainless steel, for straight razors and for blades as well the material differences seem to have more impact than for razor blades.
Carbon steel stays longer sharp than stainless steel, but can rust more easily. Also, despite being harder than stainless steel, is way easier to sharpen than stainless. I haven't had a carbon steel razor blade in years, Treet makes still some AFAIK. Not sure if similar effects can be seen on razor blades. In general modern razor blades are better, coating and all that, than classic golden age of double edge shaving blades.
I also want to point out that suggesting a non-carbon steel survival knife in an outdoor forum almost got me ritually cut by carbon steel advocates. Whatever. I am going to get one of these new "Magna Cut" steel knives next.
I find some blades feel thinner than others. Nacet vs Feather for example, the Nacet seems much more rigid and more forgiving, smoother. The Feather always seems to chatter more in razors that don't support the blade much.
For instance, the Nacet gives me a better shave in the Razorine Flatboy than a Feather.
In general the "modern" trend for razors seems to be more tight clamping of the blade. Slants with heavy torsioning of the blade achieve a similar if not superior effect.
Maybe that's indeed why they are now seemingly the next thing on the razor market. But maybe its just a fashion. Just like suddenly gaming mice cannot be light enough. Ultra lightweight mice after years of gamers adding extra weights for balance to them.
Regarding carbon steel and stainless steel, for straight razors and for blades as well the material differences seem to have more impact than for razor blades.
Carbon steel stays longer sharp than stainless steel, but can rust more easily. Also, despite being harder than stainless steel, is way easier to sharpen than stainless. I haven't had a carbon steel razor blade in years, Treet makes still some AFAIK. Not sure if similar effects can be seen on razor blades. In general modern razor blades are better, coating and all that, than classic golden age of double edge shaving blades.
I also want to point out that suggesting a non-carbon steel survival knife in an outdoor forum almost got me ritually cut by carbon steel advocates. Whatever. I am going to get one of these new "Magna Cut" steel knives next.
Please keep us updated, this is interesting. Treet is by now the only major and well known provider of carbon steel blades I am aware of. I had a in general rather bad impression of the stainless steel Treet blades, but maybe they are onto something with their carbon steel blades.
