black vs translucent ark from dan's whetstones

[Gamma]

A black ark can be a lot softer and a lot less dense than a true translucent. The term - Black Ark - in and of itself, does not equal surgical black, which was allegedly given to the denser blacks that were on par, performance wise, with real translucents. Some say they surpassed the performance of Translucent Arks but we have to remember that those opinions were often coming from woodworkers, not barbers.

Also, there are semi-translucent stones, they straddle the hard and true-hard zone. Will I put a Surgical Black Ark, or a Translucent, after a hard black ark in a progression? Sure - but I'm talking about me using my stones. Someone else will have different stones, different expectations, and a different skill set too. So, I can't say what will or will not be a worthwhile move for someone else. I look online and I see so called 'Surgical Black Arks' that I wouldn't even bother lapping. And when I look for Translucents I see a bunch that are quasi/semi trans and not in 'that' league. Then, to flip the apple cart, there's this black/white quasi trans Ark that I have that's wickedly amazing.. so there's that.

Halls is now RH Preyda, the stones are not the same as they used to be. Their Surgical Black is not what they used to sell - I have to suppose that they are no longer sourcing from that one vein in the old Fancy Hill quarry. Dan's Surgical black is a very nice stone and my jury is still out on where it sits with other stones I have been working with. I do not put it on par with my old SB Ark, or my Halls SB Ark. It just doesn't have the look or luster that I expect from 'that' class of rock. It's a good stone but my Dan's Trans is, for me, a better finisher and seemingly 'finer'. Jury is still out though, testing takes time and there's other stuff to do.

The term "Surgical Black" isn't finite, it means different things to different people/vendors/sellers/users/owners. And, I think it's been seriously diluted at this point. Dan's used to only call them ultrafine, I think retailers tag them a 'Surgical'. I am not sure who is using what term now though.
Actual Ark slurry kills razor edges, studying the crystalline structure shows why... yet there are old timers that claim the ability to get some juice out of old Surgical Black Arks, and they favored those stones and that sharpening style for certain tools. I would like to see that happen actually. Those same guys seem to dislike Translucents..so go figure. Horses for courses.

 

[SliceOfLife]

When did Halls switch over?

 

[Namkcakram]

Woodworkers were obviously always considered superior in both breeding and acquired sharpening skills/experience. Plus They have Jesus firmly in their corner.

Out of a sample size of 1, I really like Dans black stones. Translucents are the stuff of old legend, the biggest difference I’ve found in razor use is the feedback feel. My black stone feels like a nearly completely stripped piece of sandpaper and goes totally smooth towards the end. The few trans stones I’ve used all had a feel of sliding the blade across a piece of glass with something gooey applied to the surface. Results were about the same either way but the Black feedback was easier for me to feel.

Plus as a woodworker I’m obviously on team black. They seem a bit faster for tools used with more downward honing pressure applied.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Well I mean practically a shaver can only shave so much and barbers don't hone anymore. A woodworker can use his edges for hours a day.

 

[Namkcakram]

Yeah total sarcasm, but I’ve already spent way more time sharpening tools than I ever plan to spend honing razors for the rest of my life. Its every few minutes if you’re doing fine work in hard woods or silica loaded woods with tools tempered soft enough to use oilstones.

 

[Gamma]

When did Halls switch over?

The name change happened between 2014-2016. Halls was llisted as a RH Preyda company before their site showed an 'official name change'. The RH stands for Richard Hall, the namesake of Halls whetstones. Aside from the typical offerings, they introduced a new line of hybrid Arkansas stones last year. I have not tried one yet though, something tells me I won't like them for honing razors.

Woodworkers fuss over shaprening as much as any OCD-driven sharp-edge group, but unless they are also straight users, and most aren't, their edges don't touch skin and that makes all the difference in the world to me. I admire any proficient sharpener's skills tremendously, but I don't put anyone on pedestals. I listen to and/or read everyone's feedback and I take it in stride, not as law. I've worked with a number of cabinet makers that have been sharpening every tool they own for decades but couldn't get a decent smooth edge on a razor. Same for a large number of very serious knife people actually. I've even had a few competitive Axe guys that were struggling with straight razor edges also.

The point though, wasn't about which milieu is allegedly better at sharpening or has better understanding of stones. The concept is that someone sharpening gouges, chisels, Debas or Kiradashi might very well not have the same opinon of a stone that someone sharpening something else does. Different tasks require different techniques that will yield wildly diffrerent impressions.

For my purposes, after many years of owning/using many examples of SB Arks and Trans Arks, I can't objectively say that what I consider to be a real Surgical Black Ark is absolutely always better or worse than a true Trans Ark. What others think is fine for them, but the fact is that they are just too many variations and variables to be absolute here. My favorite stone is my SB Ark but mostly because I've had it for 30+ years. I have maybe 9-10 trans Arks next to my desk right now and I can say that any of them will perform, for my needs, at an at least an equal level. I have a 1940s Norton hard Black, and it's not my favorite, I'll use it to set up an edge for the matched Translucent from the same era. And so it goes.

 

[Namkcakram]

The name change happened between 2014-2016. Halls was llisted as a RH Preyda company before their site showed an 'official name change'. The RH stands for Richard Hall, the namesake of Halls whetstones. Aside from the typical offerings, they introduced a new line of hybrid Arkansas stones last year. I have not tried one yet though, something tells me I won't like them for honing razors.

Woodworkers fuss over shaprening as much as any OCD-driven sharp-edge group, but unless they are also straight users, and most aren't, their edges don't touch skin and that makes all the difference in the world to me. I admire any proficient sharpener's skills tremendously, but I don't put anyone on pedestals. I listen to and/or read everyone's feedback and I take it in stride, not as law. I've worked with a number of cabinet makers that have been sharpening every tool they own for decades but couldn't get a decent smooth edge on a razor. Same for a large number of very serious knife people actually. I've even had a few competitive Axe guys that were struggling with straight razor edges also.

The point though, wasn't about which milieu is allegedly better at sharpening or has better understanding of stones. The concept is that someone sharpening gouges, chisels, Debas or Kiradashi might very well not have the same opinon of a stone that someone sharpening something else does. Different tasks require different techniques that will yield wildly diffrerent impressions.

For my purposes, after many years of owning/using many examples of SB Arks and Trans Arks, I can't objectively say that what I consider to be a real Surgical Black Ark is absolutely always better or worse than a true Trans Ark. What others think is fine for them, but the fact is that they are just too many variations and variables to be absolute here. My favorite stone is my SB Ark but mostly because I've had it for 30+ years. I have maybe 9-10 trans Arks next to my desk right now and I can say that any of them will perform, for my needs, at an at least an equal level. I have a 1940s Norton hard Black, and it's not my favorite, I'll use it to set up an edge for the matched Translucent from the same era. And so it goes.

Yeah sorry my post was largely sarcasm, but bottom line I agree woodworkers seem to prefer the Dans black of current offerings. Second favorite is the 8x3x.5 Norton translucent I think. Both choices seem to be driven by cost per stone size and the fact they show up ready to hone.

 

[bluesman 7]

I got the humor @Namkcakram . I really like the added perspective that you bring to the honing section.

 

[Gamma]

I think I missed both the sarcasm and the humor. Probably a good thing.

This puts me 1 post over my self-imposed 2-posts-per-thread limit, but that's ok here I guess.

I don't believe it's possible to determine which majority of what group prefers what here; the discussions about SB and Trans Arks have been around a long long long time with many fanboys on either side of that fence.

Arkansas stone popularity, both brand and type,is mostly supported by several points of interest. Brand name recognition, peer pressure, flavor-of-the-day types, and Dan's ability to provide a greater availability of sizes seem to be the dominating factors. Costs are always a factor but there are many twists in those numbers.

Norton's current catalog only shows hard Arks in 1x3", 1x4", 2x4", and 2x6" sizes, and the're all 3/8" thick. Their 8x3" and 11x2" stones are technially replacment stones for two different honing systems, I believe they are still in production but at a limited pace. Anyone wanting Arks that are 3" or 2" wide and 1" thick has to go elsewhere. Dans cuts those and custom sizes too.

Adding to the market share analysis, Norton is processing their stone in Mexico, and there has been an uptick in quality-control related complaints lately. That can only push people to other vendors, most likely Dans.

Dans and Norton stones have shown up way out of flat on numerous occasions. Although the incidence of that is less than it is with, say, Best Sharpening Stones or some other organizations out there. While some users might get squirrely over this, I woudn't give it a lot of weight in the analytics.

When all is said and done, I am more inclined to buy from Natural Whetstones than any other vendor; their Trans Arks compare on-point with everyone elses. Their top black Ark compares well or identically to Dans so-called 'ultra-fine' black, and their Soft Arks are all over the place like everyone else's - except for Nortons, who's last batch of pure-white softies were pretty freaking awesome. NW's standard grade hard Ark is extremely nice also.

 

[SliceOfLife]

What mine do Bests come from anyway?

 

[Namkcakram]

The best mine, duh.

 

[Ufgoodies]

yeah, what mine DO they come from?

What mine do Bests come from anyway?

 

[A Cut Above]

So, this question is about a finishing stone.

The black seems to be more dense than the translucent. Yet the translucents seem to cost more.

And Jarrod at Superior Shave has chosen a black ark for his finishing work. So that is important to me.

I currently finish on a nani12, when I finish on stones. I also finish on The Method .1u, which shows that I like sharp.

I gather a finishing ark is more fine than a nani12, and with work and skill, can create a very sharp yet comfy edge.

Thoughts appreciated.

Jarrod takes the Dan's black to another level with his convex black stone. I have one and it puts an amazing edge on a razor and is considerably faster then a regular Dan's flat black

 

[GeronimoWSB]

Just an FYI , trying to get figures on density to compare brands. My Dan's 10*2*1 soft is 756 grams , my greyish black NW 10*3*1 is 1351. Trans black got messed up.in shipping and NW has a new one on the way, I will post a those nights numbers also. Will do.more later

 

[Chandu]

I like NW softs but that is it. Dans is better in the higher density stones and Dan's come very flat unlike NW. A soft isn't that hard to lap if you need truly flat, but the harder stones will take time and elbow grease that are greater in my opinion than the premium you pay to Dan for a better stone.