Bevel Setting

[camoloc]

it's my belief as a forum, we need more pics, descriptions, and tutorials about bevel setting.

I would assume this is the keystone to obtaining a good final edge.

I'm guilty of overlooking the importance of this.

camo

 

[Xopenex]

Suehiro Cerax 1k. Fast and load up is not that bad

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[Slash McCoy]

Suehiro Cerax 1k. Fast and load up is not that bad

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I have a Cerax 320. It is sweet.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Pics? Okay here's a couple. First pic is a bevel not fully set. You can see that there is an area where the bevel does not extend unbroken out all the way to the edge, and that above and below, the bevel appears, from this side anyway, to be set. Verification requires inspection of BOTH sides.

Another partially set bevel.

Here is an interesting pic. The bevel on this side is not fully set. But look at the very edge. See the very fine line of reflection? That is a burr raised by honing the other side. So now, obviously the side showing needs to be honed enough to first of all make the dark strip go away and the bright bevel surface go all the way out to the edge, and secondly to continue until a burr is raised on the other side.

This is a Gold Dollar P-81, AKA "1996", a very popular model these days. The view is from alongside the monkeytail, looking out toward the toe. You can see the pivot pin in the lower left quadrant, and the scales. At lower right is my finger. Centerline, more or less, is the shaving edge of the razor. Spine is out of the picture, to the upper left. You can clearly see a well developed burr except out toward the toe end where it is out of focus.

 

[seattleshaver]

I set the bevel with a plain old King 1k ($25).

 

[seattleshaver]

it's my belief as a forum, we need more pics, descriptions, and tutorials about bevel setting.

I would assume this is the keystone to obtaining a good final edge.

I'm guilty of overlooking the importance of this.

camo

For me it was about successfully doing it a few times so that I now know what it feels like and how it performs at that stage. The final test is the shave of course and if it doesn't shave well I go back to the 1k stage.

If you don't get that right, nothing else matters.

If you do get it right a few times in a row, also pay attention to how it feels on the hone. To me initially it feels rough and I see more swarf on the hone. Later it's smooth and that's about the time the bevel is set.

It's the same for the higher grits as well. That's kind of what is going though my mind and my method anyway.

 

[camoloc]

For me it was about successfully doing it a few times so that I now know what it feels like and how it performs at that stage. The final test is the shave of course and if it doesn't shave well I go back to the 1k stage.

If you don't get that right, nothing else matters.

If you do get it right a few times in a row, also pay attention to how it feels on the hone. To me initially it feels rough and I see more swarf on the hone. Later it's smooth and that's about the time the bevel is set.

It's the same for the higher grits as well. That's kind of what is going though my mind and my method anyway.

thanks....that's why we/newbs/I need more info and different approaches to this important step. I've already seen a billion different progressions, stone, film, choices etc.....to get to the end. preference.

maybe this is just an Aha moment. Bevel important.

thanks all for sharing your wisdom!!!!

camo

 

[seattleshaver]

thanks....that's why we/newbs/I need more info and different approaches to this important step. I've already seen a billion different progressions, stone, film, choices etc.....to get to the end. preference.

maybe this is just an Aha moment. Bevel important.

thanks all for sharing your wisdom!!!!

camo

Yeah, I've noticed with many things I've done, including rock climbing, that the steps are simple. On day one someone tells you the basics. You understand it intellectually but you have no experience to make it really take hold.

Then one day after you've had some hands on experience a certain technique works for you and you get that "ah ha" moment.

It's easy to read all the many posts on here and get too caught up on "how many strokes do I do" is "circles or x's" "how much pressure do I use", etc. It's really just about setting the bevel until it shaves and the rest is just about polishing. You can't polish a "turd" Also, once you know how to ride a bike it's easy. Before that, not so much.

 

[stone and strop]

1.5k Shapton now(very good stone), 1k Naniwa previous.

 

[MilkCrate]

I started with 30u lapping film. Now I work with stones, the 1k Naniwa is my bevel setter.

 

[Seveneighth]

I use a few methods and stones.

1. 3k/4k set :

Either a fairly coarse Dalmore Blue or a shapton glass 4k. Both with slurry. The Dalmore is really fun but a real pain in the wotsit to get a slurry on.

This creates a a nice clean scratch pattern which flows into the 4k /8k really nicely.

2. A soft ark. At least that's what I think it is. Slow but neat bevel. Got some really nice edges following on from that.

3. Shapton 1.5K - this is my synthetic of choice.

4. Film but the one up from the one the method guys use.

5. Convex shapton 1k
This is a riot to use. I use it with really duff gold dollars - you can hone around the geometry issues without major modifications. I then follow on with a convex coticule.

6. A Cretan stone
I use this to set a bevel before a coticule.

7. A really, really fast Petite Blanche coticule. This is my desert island stone. It does everything.

8. My favourite of all is my Gwespyr. It leaves a lovely hazy scratch pattern that is soooo easy to hone on from.


Hey listen - I just enjoy honing OK? Don't judge me too harshly everyone. I'm not recommending these methods to others.

 

[Gamma]

Right now I have 120x, 220x, 320x, 500x, 1k, 1.5k, 2k stones as 'bevel setters'. Starting point depends on blade condition.

The 1.5k prob sees the most action.

Junky stones excluded, It's not really so much about the stone though, it's the user.

Someone can have the best stone in the world (whatever that means) and still get bad bevels. Getting a bevel set is very much less about anything other than hands-on doing. It's about fact on the stone, feel on the stone and edge efficency. Getting there is purely trial and error and picking up and storing the bench marks along the way. Learning to read the audible and tactile 'tells' factors in and from there it's all about recall.

It is impossible to tell if a bevel is set by looking at it, or a photo of it. Slight differences in pressure on the stone will totally change the look of striations and then there's the 14 bizillion methods of imaging, processing, and illuminating the photo. The other part of the story is that bevel-set is a process, not an event. So what looks undercooked could just be a bad photo, or an bevel that is truly ready for the next stage. I often jump from 500x directly to 2k. If I showed a photo of the 500x bevel it might appear to be 'not ready' - when in fact it is.

Everyone has different standards, lots of shave ready edges aren't that for me at all. So what joe-honer from wherever thinks is a fully set bevel might not apply to my world or anyone elses. He however, might think he's a honing genius. Other people might think the same. I am eternally mystified how some edges cut anything ever, but the saying YMMV exists for a reason, I guess.

One of my 'practical' benchmarks is being able to manage shave off the stone in the 1k-ish slot. Visual and tactile sensations prior to that moment count heavily. There are degress of refinement to recognize here, and the only way to identify them is by experiencing them in person. Managing a shave is one thing, how well it's managed is another. At some point the cutting efficacy of the bevel-set edge translates to a particular feel on a paricular stone. It's like connecting dots, but in my head instead of on paper.

That's my very basic overview.
After setting too many bevels to count, I've learned to keep it simple and easy. Works every time.

 

[Slash McCoy]

it's my belief as a forum, we need more pics, descriptions, and tutorials about bevel setting.

I would assume this is the keystone to obtaining a good final edge.

I'm guilty of overlooking the importance of this.

camo

Now that you have seen some pics, let me point out that pics alone do not truly prove the bevel. They only indicate that it is probably good, and interpretation of edge pics can be somewhat subjective and even deceptive. A lot depends on angle of incidence between light source, bevel, and eye. Concentration of light source. Ambient lighting. Optics. Scratch pattern.

It must be remembered that you do not hone an edge to admire its appearance. You hone an edge to shave with it. So the only meaningful test is some sort of shaving test. This, too, is very subjective but subjective in a personally relevant way. Arm hair should shave very easily though it probably won't treetop over about 1/32" at best. One thing, though. Shaving your forearm successfully does not mean that there are no chips or very small areas of undeveloped bevel. So visual inspection is still essential. And finally there is the face shave. I will admit I do not relish the thought of shaving with a 1k edge, but without a doubt it is a very good test. You SHOULD be ABLE to shave your face with a well set bevel. It won't be nothing nice but it should be doable and if it isn't, then some more work is needed, probably at light pressure and with care to not create any fin edge. If the bevel looks good it is at least almost done, so not much more work should be required, no heavy lifting involved.

 

[camoloc]

Now that you have seen some pics, let me point out that pics alone do not truly prove the bevel. They only indicate that it is probably good, and interpretation of edge pics can be somewhat subjective and even deceptive. A lot depends on angle of incidence between light source, bevel, and eye. Concentration of light source. Ambient lighting. Optics. Scratch pattern.

It must be remembered that you do not hone an edge to admire its appearance. You hone an edge to shave with it. So the only meaningful test is some sort of shaving test. This, too, is very subjective but subjective in a personally relevant way. Arm hair should shave very easily though it probably won't treetop over about 1/32" at best. One thing, though. Shaving your forearm successfully does not mean that there are no chips or very small areas of undeveloped bevel. So visual inspection is still essential. And finally there is the face shave. I will admit I do not relish the thought of shaving with a 1k edge, but without a doubt it is a very good test. You SHOULD be ABLE to shave your face with a well set bevel. It won't be nothing nice but it should be doable and if it isn't, then some more work is needed, probably at light pressure and with care to not create any fin edge. If the bevel looks good it is at least almost done, so not much more work should be required, no heavy lifting involved.

thanks.....

should at least give me some starting ideas for when I acquire more stones or stuff later.

with time......

I wont do well with "listening" due to tinnitus........so feel, visual, and testing will have to become important.

camo

 

[Seveneighth]

thanks.....

should at least give me some starting ideas for when I acquire more stones or stuff later.

with time......

I wont do well with "listening" due to tinnitus........so feel, visual, and testing will have to become important.

camo

You can "listen" with your fingers - although for me that only works with natural stones. With synths I have to rely on visual inspection and testing mainly.

The turning point for me with honing was watching @Gamma 's video on bevel setting. Not so much what he says in the video but what he does. Now I don't hone like Gamma at all (always hone in hand, my razor grip is different, I use some other techniques I have picked up from other honemeisters), and I just don't understand how he can read synthetic stones like he does. BUT. But if you watch how he holds and moves the razor on the stone in that video, it will tell you everything you need to know about honing I believe. Well - that's how it worked for me. From that moment on I was able to understand what was going wrong with my own technique and adapt and develop it.

I highly recommend reading all the advice you can here and then going back to watch that video from time to time. At some point what he is doing will suddenly make sense.

 

[Legion]

If it is a beat up blade, or a thick grind, I go with a 600 dmt. Otherwise a fast Coti and heavy slurry.

 

[camoloc]

You can "listen" with your fingers - although for me that only works with natural stones. With synths I have to rely on visual inspection and testing mainly.

The turning point for me with honing was watching @Gamma 's video on bevel setting. Not so much what he says in the video but what he does. Now I don't hone like Gamma at all (always hone in hand, my razor grip is different, I use some other techniques I have picked up from other honemeisters), and I just don't understand how he can read synthetic stones like he does. BUT. But if you watch how he holds and moves the razor on the stone in that video, it will tell you everything you need to know about honing I believe. Well - that's how it worked for me. From that moment on I was able to understand what was going wrong with my own technique and adapt and develop it.

I highly recommend reading all the advice you can here and then going back to watch that video from time to time. At some point what he is doing will suddenly make sense.

you tube vid????

thanks for any links or pointers to this.

camo

 

[Seveneighth]

you tube vid????

thanks for any links or pointers to this.

camo

This is where I get confused with forum rules. I'll dm it to you.

 

[camoloc]

This is where I get confused with forum rules. I'll dm it to you.

thanks

camo

 

[Xopenex]

Is Gamma Alex?

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