Bevel Setting on a Naniwa 1k Super Stone

[McBlade]

How long should this take? I just can't seem to do it even after a couple of hours of honing.

I've got two vintage razors: a singing, full hollow Kropp and a Bengall near-wedge. The Kropp is an ebay restoration job which I've polished up and rescaled. The Bengall was shave-ready when I bought it (my first straight). It rusts easily - so I guess it's a carbon steel.

Each razor has had at least a couple of hours on the 1k stone in total, spread over several failed sessions. The stone was lapped before first use and several time thereafter (wet & dry on a tile, now I've switched to wet & dry on an acrylic plate). I've tried heavy strokes (only on the near-wedge: the full-hollow is too delicate) and light strokes. I've tried circles and normal laps. I've tried adding in 500 and 1000 wet & dry before the 1k stone. Nothing seems to work. I get so far but no farther.

Today I concentrated on light strokes. Maybe a couple of hundred on each razor. Just enough weight to hold the razors flat. I was trying to concentrate on feeling the blade on the hone the whole time, holding an image in my head of gently wiping ink off the bevel as if I'd just marked it with a sharpie.

Same results as usual.

Sharpie tests during honing: the stone does seem to be hitting the bevel all the way to the edge.

Cherry tomato tests: not even close. Will cut with a slicing motion but not with a push-cut - not even when you apply enough pressure to deform the tomato and leave a dent in the skin. (The blade is about 45 degrees when trying to do the push-cut, if that makes a difference)

Shave tests: I can scrape some hair off my leg or forearm with several passes. Razors won't shave at all at a shallow angle. This seems to suggest I am getting close to setting a bevel, but not quite there?

I did manage to shave with the near-wedge last night. I lost patience, ate the tomato, and just ran all the way through a progression: at least 50 laps each on 30u lapping film, 1k super stone, 12u-9u-3u, Naniwa 10k super stone (over 100 laps), 50 laps or so on CrOx and 0.1u FeOx. Finally about 100 on leather. I did end up with a shaveable edge although quite a mild one. Two passes were worse than a single pass with a Feather SS copy (to be fair these shave really, really well). But it was definitely usable.

So, my main question to anyone with a 1k super stone: how long does it normally take you to set a bevel? That might help me to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Also, how wet does a stone have to be? I may have let it dry out too much in my earlier attempts. Lately I've been making more of an effort to maintain a layer of water on the stone. I've also been experimenting with a spot of dish soap to build a weak lather on the last 50 laps or so.

 

[global_dev]

Are you flattening before or after wetting?

 

[iamryan25]

The apex was probably still U shaped if it wasn't passing sharpness tests after the 1000.

Even if sharpie marker was being used and erased all the way to the edge, that doesn't mean that a V shaped apex was created at the edge.

A subtle twist from the fingertips, sometimes called 'torque', is helpful for ensuring the very apex is being worked into a V shape. Too much downward pressure without torque and the apex remains U shaped.

The spine is just a built in angle guide, so the razor needs enough weight on the spine to prevent it from lifting away from the stone but the pressure should be focused at the apex.

An experienced person using the same stone will be more efficient, time spend for someone new to this stone will likely be greater than others with the same stone.

Time spend varies. Take a break if the process becomes frustrating. It is unlikely that advancing to finer stones will be able to handle shaping the apex into a V if that isn't handled at or before the 1000.

Ditch the soap.

 

[global_dev]

I’d spend more time focused on the hollow kropp. Maybe try a light slurry off the 1000 and use the thumbnail test for stickiness. Should be the quicker of the 2.

keep the hone pretty wet, the swarf needs to be carried away. Wonder if the super is glazed or clogged. Refresh the surface once in a while, make sure its not dishing by penciling x’s on the hone and seeing that it all goes away with a couple of wipes of your lapper.

Even if sharpie marker was being used and erased all the way to the edge, that doesn't mean that a V shaped apex was created at the edge.

Good add. No soap is my rec too

if the bengall was a tape job, its gonna be a while.

 

[lightfoot]

I wonder if some particles from the w/d paper is imbedded in the hone. This could explain what’s going on. Lapping with a diamond plate is the best way to go IMO...

 

[McBlade]

Are you flattening before or after wetting?

After. I'd heard the super stones can swell up a bit when they get wet.

The first time I lapped the stone it took a while to flatten. I've repeated this at least twice since then. The pencil marks disappeared very quickly.

In one session, when I was using heavier pressure, I relapped a few times during honing to clean up extensive grey marks. Just a dozen circles or so seemed to do it. Mostly I just use a dish scrubber to scrub them off: the ones with a rough side stuck on a square sponge.

With a light touch the stone doesn't load up so bad.

 

[McBlade]

I wonder if some particles from the w/d paper is imbedded in the hone. This could explain what’s going on. Lapping with a diamond plate is the best way to go IMO...

Oh crap. The wet & dry I have is a cheap option from ebay. Does the quality vary a lot?

At least the stone has two sides. I'll have to wait till after the festive season to look at diamond plates.

 

[lightfoot]

Oh crap. The wet & dry I have is a cheap option from ebay. Does the quality vary a lot?

At least the stone has two sides. I'll have to wait till after the festive season to look at diamond plates.

Yeah they’re not cheap. But this is the one area that may hurt initially but you will be grateful for over the rest of your entire experience honing. A single 400 or 600 grit plate is indispensable!

 

[iamryan25]

Refresh the surface once in a while, make sure its not dishing by penciling x’s on the hone and seeing that it all goes away with a couple of wipes of your lapper.

Refreshing the surface is definitely helpful. My idea of every once in a while is every 50-100+ strokes, depending on the razor and lapping method. With a diamond plate, I refresh more frequently because it is more convenient.

Oh crap. The wet & dry I have is a cheap option from ebay. Does the quality vary a lot?

At least the stone has two sides. I'll have to wait till after the festive season to look at diamond plates.

Before I invested in a diamond plate for lapping I got by just fine with cheap sandpaper from Harbor Freight and a flat marble tile. The sandpaper should be up to the task, assuming it isn't made for wood but is actually SIC abrasive for all purpose use like metal.

Flooding the surface with running water during lapping, or submerging in a tub during lapping, can be helpful for clearing away debris. Rinse the stone well before using.

If I had to guess I'd say the problem is not with the equipment, but is more likely an issue with technique.

 

[McBlade]

I have been lapping the stone under a running tap but not as often as you suggest. It's definitely wet & dry paper but aluminum oxide not silicon carbide.

Poor technique is definitely one of the suspects Fairly new at this. I'll try to bias the pressure more towards the edge, without lifting the spine.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I cannot speak to your stone, but as a fellow newcomer I can share a few things that I have recently learned about setting a bevel/edge:

1. Based on watching the pros, you will need to remove some metal to set a bevel. I spent over an hour making no progress the first time I tried to set a bevel. I ended up applying a lot of pressure straight down on the razor without making much progress. And I generated little swarf.
2. So I watched a bunch of videos and in each case the honer produced noticeable swarf without looking like they were breaking a sweat. Then I watched and tried to imitate
   in which JeffT talks about applying torgue. And all of a sudden I was generating swarf without applying lots of pressure on the spine and lo and behold I gradually formed a bevel.

Based on my experience, there is no single secret to doing this. There are many factors and you just need to experiment and try different things until you figure it out. Play with things like downward pressure, torque, speed of your stroke, and rigidity/relaxation of your wrist. And, above all, be patient and have some fun!

 

[relli1130]

Frank Shaves, thanks for the shout out. Nice to see someone learned from what I’ve learned!

1. OP regarding bevel set, lots of good suggestions have been mentioned. For me, the lightbulb came on when I learned the concept of torque. Just be careful not to add too much torque/pressure lest you begin to flex the blade thereby changing the bevel angle. Apply just enough torque to “introduce” the edge to the stone.

2. Ensure that your stone is flat. Grid Mark your stone with a pencil. I recommend a diamond plate. Ditch the sandpaper IMO. The plate I use is from EBay. It is a 1000/400 combo. They’re about $30 shipped and come with a stone holder. Mine is 3 years old and still works great. Just search 400/1000 grit diamond lapping plate and you’ll find them. For the price, it’s a hard value to beat. A flat stone is really important. I remember one time as a newb, I was having difficulty setting a bevel. I assumed my stone was flat. Through a process of elimination I realized it wasn’t. I grid lapped it and was shocked at how dished my stone was! If the stone is dished, you won’t be making sufficient contact at all! Lap often, grid lap occasionally.

3. Check for bevel set. Never move on until the bevel is set. Learn the “set bevel” techniques. For me, the thumbnail test works great. Followed by “will it shave my arm/leg hair” test.

4. Inspect always and often. Get a jewelers loupe if you don’t have one already. The one I have is a 16x and it’s all I need. You’ll learn so much by getting a visual close up of the progress you’re making. Pay special attention to the scratch pattern as it approaches the apex. If scratches aren’t reaching the apex, you’re not removing metal where it counts. The scratches will tell you what’s happening if you’re paying attention.

5. Have fun, ask questions, watch vids on honing. The learning never stops.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Frank Shaves, thanks for the shout out. Nice to see someone learned from what I’ve learned!... Inspect always and often. Get a jewelers loupe if you don’t have one already.

I assume this means that you are JeffT. The bit when you talk about applying torque was a light bulb moment for me .

And the bit about using a loupe (or similar device) to inspect your work is huge. I bought a loupe but couldn't figure out how to use it until I watched yet another video.

@McBlade, once you learn how to use the loupe and begin to understand the types of scratch patterns you are trying to achieve, another light bulb will go off.

 

[Slash McCoy]

A very bright light and a loupe of good quality and 10x or so magnification will be a big help. Roll the razor around in the light and watch the reflections.

Particles of coarse abrasive from sandpaper stuck in the stone should not be an issue. If there is any doubt, right after lapping a stone, hone a large SS kitchen knife on the stone.

The red resin type sandpaper is my favorite.

A Naniwa 1k is not a bad bevel setter but if a lot of steel must come off, it is better to start down around 300 or 600 grit. I use a 1k Chosera in place of the 1k SuperStone.

I start by honing ONE side of the razor ONLY, until a burr is raised along most of the edge. Then however many laps that took, I do that many on the other side and raise a burr again on the opposite side. Then I do diminishing sets e.g. 10 and 10, 8 and 8, 6 and 6, 4 and 4, 3 and 3, 2 and 2, and then regular laps, with some pull strokes added, to get rid of all traces of burr and peak the apex. Read about The Burr Method. This works nicely when you don't have a loupe and bright light, or you don't understand how to read the reflections. It is as close to foolproof as it gets because it sets the bevel and also proves it.

A USB microscope can be useful, too. There are cheap ones out there that will work fine. You might prefer a clip-on microscope that clamps onto your phone so you can use your phone's camera in that capacity.

For a loupe, it is hard to beat a 10x Belomo Triplet. Exceptional quality, without the top shelf price. The super cheap ones work, but the quality optics of the Belomo are a game changer.

It isn't done until it is done. Setting the bevel can take 50 laps or 2500 laps, depending on stuff. Half of the struggle is recognizing when you have a bevel set, and when you have the bevel set only in spots, and when you have no bevel set at all. You must never assume that your bevel is set "just because" or because you have spent a lot of time and laps on the bevel setter. Examine and test. Mostly examine. If you don't use the burr method then it is examination by sight, with bright light and loupe. Keep fixed in your mind what you are trying to achieve, which is two very flat faces that meet perfectly together at a sharp and smooth edge, relative to the grit size of course. There are a lot of previous threads on this subject with lots of very good pics and detailed explanations that taken altogether, would make a nice little book. I don't want to write that book here in a post. I am often accused of going on and on too long as it is.

 

[lightfoot]

Also don’t be ashamed of sending it to a member that might be semi-close by for a 2nd opinion. Occasionally there’s an underlying issue that someone might find.

 

[McBlade]

I cannot speak to your stone, but as a fellow newcomer I can share a few things that I have recently learned about setting a bevel/edge

Thanks for the video. That was very interesting.

And thanks everyone for some great advice

Another session today, on the full-hollow Kropp, using the other side of the stone for the first time.

First I lapped the stone with the full pencil-mark treatment (didn't take long: not perfect but not far off straight from the factory). In use it regularly got a couple of dozen or so laps to clear any grey streaks of swarf building up on the surface.

I tried heavy pressure. I tried light pressure. I tried slurry (the leftovers after lapping the stone). I tried clean water. I tried circles. I tried ordinary laps. I tried holding the stone in my hand and I tried putting it flat on the worktop beside the sink.

And all the time I tried to torque the blade towards the edge.

I worked on it for at least a couple of hours. No improvement.

I do have a cheap loupe advertised as "x30/x60". It probably isn't that powerful but I think it might be powerful enough. I haven't used it much I guess because I don't really know what to look for. Next session I'll make a point of stopping to examine the blade regularly and I'll try to take some photographs.

 

[iamryan25]

I've got two vintage razors: a singing, full hollow Kropp and a Bengall near-wedge. The Kropp is an ebay restoration job which I've polished up and rescaled. The Bengall was shave-ready when I bought it (my first straight). It rusts easily - so I guess it's a carbon steel.

Please expand on the methods used to restore the Kropp. Were any motorized tools used or was the work done by hand?

And all the time I tried to torque the blade towards the edge.

I worked on it for at least a couple of hours. No improvement.

Show pics of each side of the razors please.

 

[McBlade]

All by hand. I replaced the scales and gave the blade a good clean up with wet & dry sandpaper and micromesh polishing cloth.

I'll take some close-up pictures of the bevel tomorrow. This is all I have at the moment:

It's quite a delicate blade. The whole razor only weighs 28g.

 

[iamryan25]

All by hand. I replaced the scales and gave the blade a good clean up with wet & dry sandpaper and micromesh polishing cloth.

I'll take some close-up pictures of the bevel tomorrow. This is all I have at the moment:

View attachment 1184192

It's quite a delicate blade. The whole razor only weighs 28g.

If I was reading about an electric buffer or a Dremel I would be worried but I'm reading comforting things about the work that was performed. A+

When I look at this picture of this razor I am having trouble seeing where countless hours of bevel work have gone. I can't see things like honing damage or excessive spine wear. I can't see much evidence of a bevel at all.

I am crossing my fingers that the edge is not being ruined in between honing sessions by cutting into a stone or glass, if the edge is being destroyed before each attempt then I could start to understand where the time went.

Are there any black metal filings being left behind on the stone? It might help us to see a photo of the stone after 50 strokes, after 100 strokes... but I am starting to wonder if enough pressure is being used. What I'm seeing leads me to believe more torque and pressure could be helpful.

That is of course assuming the edge isn't being ruined by cutting into glass or stone in between bevel attempts. Don't do this.

All of this is assuming the picture shown was taken after the unsuccessful honing occurred.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I agree with @iamryan25. It doesn't look like you are honing it. Have you performed a sharpie test? Where is the steel being worn away?

What I call heavy pressure is the full dead weight of your arm. Usually that is what you start out with, on a hollowground razor. Usually about 50 strokes on one side only of the razor with no slurry will raise a burr on the other side that can be detected by feel or by optics. A very roughly ground razor, more or maybe a lot more. Have you tried raising a burr? The burr will always be deflected upward from the hone, of course. Flipping the razor will naturally reverse the burr because as I said, it is always deflected to the up side. Look for the burr in a very bright light. Feel for the burr by running your fingertip lightly from spine to edge and beyond. It will feel like a very faint catch, that is not felt when you similarly test the other side. If you cannot raise a burr along even a short segment of the edge, then you are not removing any steel. If nowhere that you paint with the sharpie ever becomes clean shiny steel, then you are not making contact at all. And I simply do not see how that can be. Put the steel to the wetted stone with significant pressure and give it a rub. Things must begin to happen.

You are, of course, honing with both edge and spine in contact with the hone, right? The spine is your bevel guide and must always be resting on the hone before you bring the edge down onto it. The edge must always be lifted from the hone before the spine is lifted. When flipping the razor to the other side, the EDGE must flip up and over, not the spine. The spine remains on the hone. Do not let the shoulder ride up on the hone, either.

Before doing anything else, very carefully and as accurately as possible, measure the width of the razor at a place that you can easily find for a repeat measurement later. If you find that you have reduced the width of the razor by, say, 1/64", or 0.016", or the equivelant in sillymeters, without seeing any change in the bevel, then stop stop stop, send that razor out, or better yet find a forum member near you who hones and can guide you through the process in person. Meanwhile HONE. REMOVE SOME STEEL. The stone will take it. The razor will give it up. It needs only you to make it happen and to notice that it is happening, monitor, and control it's happening.