Best scope for a lightweight AR

[joel]

Picked up a Christensen AR with a carbon fiber barrel and full hand guard. Weighs about 6lbs total. They’re guaranteed sub MOA guns, but I know their guns can be spotty (I owned and sold two of their titanium 1911’s that never ran right) but if you get a good one, or work the kinks out of a bad one with the factory - you have a featherweight tack driver. While I have a feeling I’m going to regret this one and I expect initial issues, what I can’t figure out is what optic to put on top of this thing.

I’m thinking a 1-6 or 1-8 with an illuminated reticule and a generous eye relief - but perhaps don’t want to go with anything TOO heavy so as to negate some of the considerable weight savings of the carbon fiber. It should be accurate enough for long range work, so I’d like at least a bit of magnification.

Thoughts?

 

[nortac]

This is a thorny issue that I have not been able to resolve. Long range accuracy and lightweight scopes seem to be incompatible, but that depends on the level of accuracy that you expect to achieve. Are you trying to shoot bug-hole groups or just ring steel at distance. An LPVO is a great thing, but not for shooting the smallest of groups. A scope that has a 30 mm tube is going to weight more than one built on a 1 in. tube. But the 30 mm tube will have more light and more available elevation adjustment. Important for long range shooting. I would think that a lightweight carbine would be a challenge to shoot with the highest degree of accuracy regardless of it's inherent mechanical accuracy. YMMV. In my admittedly limited experience and skill, I have opted to build my "accuracy" ARs with heavy barrels, PRS type stocks and furniture, heavy high power scopes, essentially a bench or prone target gun. My "practical" ARs or MSRs are lighter weight with either LPVOs or red dot type sights. An ACOG or microprism sight with an ACSS reticle would satisfy a relatively light weight option, but have very limited magnification. For me to shoot sub MOA groups, I need a steady platform and high magnification. Without that, I can only achieve about 1.5 MOA, even though I know my gun is capable of at least 0.75 MOA. But my eyes are old and I'm not as steady as I once was. YMMV greatly.

 

[nikonNUT]

So I have been reseaching this exact same thing for my Tippmann SBR. I'm taking a gamble on a USO TS-6x first focal plane for a few reasons....
1) It's very light for an FFP LVPO at 17.9oz. The Nightforce NX8 1-8 F1 IS .3 ounces lighter for $1250.00 more (I got a steal on the USO for 525.00 out the door) but that's a hard sell. The ATAC-R 1-8 is heavier (and built like a tank no doubt) and $2300.00 more so nooooo...
2) It has a VERY good FOV as in 118ft @ 100 yards on 1x and 15ft @ 100 yards at 6x.
3) It's first focal plane. I got a LOT of weird looks over this but I have a theory. This is the reticle I chose a'la the JNG...

In my mind at 1x with the lume on I'm guessing all I will see is the red ring which should be perfect for both eyes open shooting. As I crank up the magnification for longer shots the crosshairs and hashmarks become more prominent (recicle gets bigger as magnification increases with an FFP set-up) for more precise stuff. After banging steel with the .338LM easy peasy at 700 yards on 10x (@OkieStubble knows the place and the fog was so bad at the range that day that at more than 10x the targets disappeared like a polar bear in a blizzard!). I thnk 6x or 8x should cover anything out to 300 unless you are trying to head shoot squirrels! I am BTW.
4) It's a scope so there is diopter adjustment. My 51 y/o eyes NEED that!

Full disclosure... The scope may suck and the ring only thing at 1x maybe wrong think but I'm going to give it a whirl and see how it works! I've only got about $650.00 invested in it and a Warne Skel cantilever mount so if it is bad no great loss. Time will tell but that is my current take on chosing an LVPO for me. The other option would be something like a 2.5-10 or 3-15 scope with a reflex sight on a 45 degree offset mount.

 

[OkieStubble]

It all depends on how much you are willing to spend on a scope. Heavy AR’s, eg; heavy barrels and heavy scope’s should be tack drivers, because one will want to just lay down and go prone and more or less stationary because it’s so damn heavy.

A lightweight, carbon barreled AR, gives its user a platform to be used with a lot of mobility. While it still needs to be accurate, you can pick it up and move around place to place quickly, giving you speed, mobility and accuracy.

There’s nothing worse imo, then someone going out of their way and spend their money on an AR specifically design to be lightweight and then ruin it with a bunch of heavy, hard core add ons and accessories.

I purchased a very expensive lightweight AR not too long back; and it took me over a year to research, find, purchase and add the lightweight accessories I wanted for it.

Finding the right scope was my biggest challenge. After a year of searching, I got really frustrated, because it became very clear to me, the scope I was searching for, was as mythical as a damn Unicorn.

I finally, after a year and a half of relentless and exhausting research, found two versions of this mythical Unicorn tactical LPVO in 1X6 and 1X8. I found a cheap version of this scope; and I found a very expensive version of this scope and I will tell you what they are.

First off, if you haven’t already noticed, most of the popular brands of 1x6 or 1x8 or even 1x10, 30mm objective tactical scopes out there are all heavy, fat assed pieces of optic glass that will instantly add, another pound and a half to your 6 pound rifle. That’s right, 24 ounce scopes are the norm when it comes to brands like the Vortex Razor? Nightforce? Schmidt & Bender? Swarovski?

Even some of their lighter options are still 20-22 ounces. Their quality scopes no doubt, but fall in a swimming pool or the ocean with your fat assed scope topped AR, you’re going to immediately sink straight to the bottom and drown.

So I will forgo all the scopes I looked at in that year and a half and tell you the two most viable and lightweight options to be found on either end of the pricing spectrum.

Most expensive:

Leupold- Great glass and crazy lightweights. Depending on their model you choose, you can find them between 14 and 18 ounces. They are the lightest in the game when it comes to glass quality and being of a ruggedly made for quality of endurance and abuse.

However, like you, I am very picky on my gear. I want a great reticle, one that’s not too busy and not too basic. It also needs to be user friendly and I want a fully illuminated reticle. Two years ago, when I was in this unicorn hunt, most of the Leupold’s I found; while quality glass and construction and very lightweight’s? Their reticles were horribly outdated. Simple pig reticles with no BDC’s or illumination.

Leupold finally contacted me knowing what I had been searching for about a scope they were coming out with called the Patrol 6HD. But I had a year wait for it to come to market at that time and they hadn’t even presented it at shot show yet.

While waiting, I came across another Unicorn. Only this time, instead of the $1500-$2000 the Leupold Patrol 6HD was going to be priced for this new unicorn scope I found was a bit of a marvel imo.

1X6X24
Fully Illuminated Reticle with an ACSS Bullet Drop Compensation.

Basically, the exact same illuminated reticle US Marines used and made popular in all the Trijicon ACOGS over in the sandbox.

Only 18 ounces. While it’s not high quality glass of a Leupold or a Vortex, it’s still prey decent gas filled glass where the only distortion I have found is a bit of cloudiness around the edges in 1 power. All the other magnifications are just fine. I got the 1X6 in 2nd focal for $400. You can go up in price and get the 1X8 or even a 10 in first focal and get a better upgraded quality of glass at about the same 18 ounces of weight.

The name? Primary Arms.

After a year of owning it and having it on top of my rifle, a Leupold Representative who I am acquainted with, called me and said Leupold finally sent one of their new Patrol HD’s to my local LGS for me to purchase and review. I immediately went straight in with credit card in hand with full intentions of finally getting this expensive, high quality scope. But when I got there, I spent a whole hour with it, checking it out, adjusting the dials and magnifications, but I just couldn’t make myself pull the trigger. Glass quality was great. But their new reticle? Just meh. Even in first focus, the reticle was hard to see because of it’s small size even in it’s largest magnification?

The illumination? Was just the top half and a fire dot. For $1600 the reticle wasn’t even fully illuminated. To me, the Primary Arms offered more to the AR owner. And I have always been a faithful Leupold consumer.

Not anymore.

 

[nikonNUT]

It all depends on how much you are willing to spend on a scope. Heavy AR’s, eg; heavy barrels and heavy scope’s should be tack drivers, because one will want to just lay down and go prone and more or less stationary because it’s so damn heavy.

A lightweight, carbon barreled AR, gives its user a platform to be used with a lot of mobility. While it still needs to be accurate, you can pick it up and move around place to place quickly, giving you speed, mobility and accuracy.

There’s nothing worse imo, then someone going out of their way and spend their money on an AR specifically design to be lightweight and then ruin it with a bunch of heavy, hard core add ons and accessories.

I purchased a very expensive lightweight AR not too long back; and it took me over a year to research, find, purchase and add the lightweight accessories I wanted for it.

Finding the right scope was my biggest challenge. After a year of searching, I got really frustrated, because it became very clear to me, the scope I was searching for, was as mythical as a damn Unicorn.

I finally, after a year and a half of relentless and exhausting research, found two versions of this mythical Unicorn tactical LPVO in 1X6 and 1X8. I found a cheap version of this scope; and I found a very expensive version of this scope and I will tell you what they are.

First off, if you haven’t already noticed, most of the popular brands of 1x6 or 1x8 or even 1x10, 30mm objective tactical scopes out there are all heavy, fat assed pieces of optic glass that will instantly add, another pound and a half to your 6 pound rifle. That’s right, 24 ounce scopes are the norm when it comes to brands like the Vortex Razor? Nightforce? Schmidt & Bender? Swarovski?

Even some of their lighter options are still 20-22 ounces. Their quality scopes no doubt, but fall in a swimming pool or the ocean with your fat assed scope topped AR, you’re going to immediately sink straight to the bottom and drown.

So I will forgo all the scopes I looked at in that year and a half and tell you the two most viable and lightweight options to be found on either end of the pricing spectrum.

Most expensive:

Leupold- Great glass and crazy lightweights. Depending on their model you choose, you can find them between 14 and 18 ounces. They are the lightest in the game when it comes to glass quality and being of a ruggedly made for quality of endurance and abuse.

However, like you, I am very picky on my gear. I want a great reticle, one that’s not too busy and not too basic. It also needs to be user friendly and I want a fully illuminated reticle. Two years ago, when I was in this unicorn hunt, most of the Leupold’s I found; while quality glass and construction and very lightweight’s? Their reticles were horribly outdated. Simple pig reticles with no BDC’s or illumination.

Leupold finally contacted me knowing what I had been searching for about a scope they were coming out with called the Patrol 6HD. But I had a year wait for it to come to market at that time and they hadn’t even presented it at shot show yet.

While waiting, I came across another Unicorn. Only this time, instead of the $1500-$2000 the Leupold Patrol 6HD was going to be priced for this new unicorn scope I found was a bit of a marvel imo.

1X6X24
Fully Illuminated Reticle with an ACSS Bullet Drop Compensation.

Basically, the exact same illuminated reticle US Marines used and made popular in all the Trijicon ACOGS over in the sandbox.

Only 18 ounces. While it’s not high quality glass of a Leupold or a Vortex, it’s still prey decent gas filled glass where the only distortion I have found is a bit of cloudiness around the edges in 1 power. All the other magnifications are just fine. I got the 1X6 in 2nd focal for $400. You can go up in price and get the 1X8 or even a 10 in first focal and get a better upgraded quality of glass at about the same 18 ounces of weight.

The name? Primary Arms.

After a year of owning it and having it on top of my rifle, a Leupold Representative who I am acquainted with, called me and said Leupold finally sent one of their new Patrol HD’s to my local LGS for me to purchase and review. I immediately went straight in with credit card in hand with full intentions of finally getting this expensive, high quality scope. But when I got there, I spent a whole hour with it, checking it out, adjusting the dials and magnifications, but I just couldn’t make myself pull the trigger. Glass quality was great. But their new reticle? Just meh. Even in first focus, the reticle was hard to see because of it’s small size even in it’s largest magnification?

The illumination? Was just the top half and a fire dot. For $1600 the reticle wasn’t even fully illuminated. To me, the Primary Arms offered more to the AR owner. And I have always been a faithful Leupold consumer.

Not anymore.

Great post Rob! Just to add on... PA makes great stuff but! You gotta go SLx or better.
SLx=Phillipines (Vortex Viper line, etc.)
PLx=Japan (Most likey Light Optics Works who make for Nightforce, Vortex Razor line, Athlon Chronos line, etc.)
CLx=China (Just sayin')

 

[nortac]

I like this reticle on the Shepherd 1-8x24 LPVO, second focal plain, but it has one glaring downside. The illumination fades if left on for very long, but is restored by switching it off and on. It has both red and green illumination. About $500.00

 

[nikonNUT]

I’m hoping my choice will work out. I wanted the LVPO because of aforementioned eyes but also because I like the idea of a rifle that is 20-ish inches long collapsed (not super snaggy) for traipsing thru the woods in search of squeakers! I do most of my hunting on 6x anyways so as long I keep the shots inside of 50 yards it should be a good choice… and when I want to play high drag, low speed tactical LARPer it should be fun for that to! Might try a rimfire challenge as well.

 

[nikonNUT]

View attachment 1631542
View attachment 1631541

I like this reticle on the Shepherd 1-8x24 LPVO, second focal plain, but it has one glaring downside. The illumination fades if left on for very long, but is restored by switching it off and on. It has both red and green illumination. About $500.00

ADM mount? VERY nice! That was another option but the LGS gave me a smoking deal on the Warne Tactical at $125.00 out the door so the deal was struck! I'm not sure I need a QR but I have a Vortex Precision QR Extended Cantilever Mount I can rob if I need to.

 

[OkieStubble]

View attachment 1631542
View attachment 1631541

I like this reticle on the Shepherd 1-8x24 LPVO, second focal plain, but it has one glaring downside. The illumination fades if left on for very long, but is restored by switching it off and on. It has both red and green illumination. About $500.00

All brands do this, regardless of price. If a brand claims to do it better, the differences are nominal. When I was checking out Leupold's 6HD, I purposely left it on for about 10 minutes while checking it out. It's brightness faded considerably. Many companies, claim daylight bright, like Vortex's Razor Gen III or IV which ever the current generation is. And it is daylight bright... For the exact same first 10 -15 minutes as the rest of them. It's just an inherent design flaw with the internal filament of a battery powered, illuminated reticle inside the glass.

The filament when cold and turned on is bright in the beginning, because it heats up faster then the glass that surrounds it's reticle. But once heat starts to transfer from the filament to the glass? The hot glass begins to balance out and dissipate the brightness of the reticles filament. So, hot filament and cold glass, reticle is brighter, even daylight bright. Give it a bit for the glass to get up to the same temps as the filament it surrounds? Brightness begins to fade. You can spend $400 or $2000 and it won't matter. Will some fade quicker than others? For sure, but they're all an inevitability, the longer the battery powered illumination is on.

 

[OkieStubble]

ADM mount? VERY nice! That was another option but the LGS gave me a smoking deal on the Warne Tactical at $125.00 out the door so the deal was struck! I'm not sure I need a QR but I have a Vortex Precision QR Extended Cantilever Mount I can rob if I need to.

Companies are beginning to make lightweight QR mounts now and it's about time. Not too long back, The words 'QR' and 'lightweight' were not synonymous of each other.

 

[nikonNUT]

I've seen that ADM offers Ti QR levers as an option, Rob. Knocks almost 20% off the overall weight! Wonder if a full Ti mount might be coming? Expensive but if you could turn an 8.2oz mount into a 4oz mount? That's huge! All in all my scope and mount choice weigh in at 24.6oz. I'm not complainig considering the Romeo8 is 11.3oz!

 

[nortac]

Scalarworks LEAP/08 30mm Scope Mount — Free 2 Day Shipping w/ code 2DAYAIR — 4 models

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www.opticsplanet.com

5.7 oz. QD

 

[nortac]

https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope.html?_iv_code=VX-RS-RZRGIII-RZR-11001

@OkieStubble ,my Vortex Razor HD Gen III is definitely daylight bright, even in bright sun and if it fades, it's much less than my Shepherd scope. But at 4 times the cost. Being FFP, at 1 X the illuminated reticle is so small that it essentially works as a red dot.

For close range shots, I love the Shepherds reticle, which is SFP, and it is very visible even with the illumination off/faded. For long range shooting, the Vortex FFP reticle is very nice with a little more magnification at 10X vs. 8X for the Shepherd.

 

[nortac]

Primary Arms SLx 3X MicroPrism Red Dot Sigh, Red Illuminated ACSS Raptor 7.62/300BO Reticle - Yard, Flat Dark Earth, 710057 — Color: Flat Dark Earth, Fabric/Material: Aluminum, Magnification: 3 x, Objective Lens Diameter: 17 mm — 710057

Primary Arms SLx 3X MicroPrism Red Dot Sigh, Red Illuminated ACSS — Color: Flat Dark Earth, Fabric/Material: Aluminum, Magnification: 3 x, Objective Lens Diameter: 17 mm

www.opticsplanet.com

I've been very tempted to swap out my scope for this on my .300 BO AR pistol, only 7.95 oz. total!

While it's reticle is graduated out to 600 yds., at only 3X, I'd have trouble seeing a target at 600 unless it was a very big target!
Of course I wouldn't be shooting the .300BO at 600 yds, but there is a version for .223/.308.

 

[nortac]

Picked up a Christensen AR with a carbon fiber barrel and full hand guard.......

I’m thinking a 1-6 or 1-8 with an illuminated reticule and a generous eye relief - but perhaps don’t want to go with anything TOO heavy so as to negate some of the considerable weight savings of the carbon fiber. It should be accurate enough for long range work, so I’d like at least a bit of magnification.

Thoughts

So @joel , what ranges are you envisioning for this lightweight AR? And what type of targets at the longest range?

 

[nortac]

Since @OkieStubble mentioned all illuminated reticles fade, I had my Vortex Razor HD Gen III on for over 30 min. and saw no discernible dimming of the illumination. Of course this is a short test, but it beats the quoted 10-15 min.

 

[OkieStubble]

https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope.html?_iv_code=VX-RS-RZRGIII-RZR-11001

@OkieStubble ,my Vortex Razor HD Gen III is definitely daylight bright, even in bright sun and if it fades, it's much less than my Shepherd scope. But at 4 times the cost. Being FFP, at 1 X the illuminated reticle is so small that it essentially works as a red dot.

For close range shots, I love the Shepherds reticle, which is SFP, and it is very visible even with the illumination off/faded. For long range shooting, the Vortex FFP reticle is very nice with a little more magnification at 10X vs. 8X for the Shepherd.

1. No doubt the design and look of your Shepherd reticle is pretty awesome. Other brands should use them as an example imo.

2. No doubt your expensive Gen III Razor is daylight bright and brighter then your Shepherd.

3. No doubt that if you leave them both on long enough, they both are going to heat up and fade. Will your Razor’s fade look brighter then your Shepherds fade? Probably.

4. But there’s no doubt that they both will still fade. Unless Vortex has figured out how to use fiber optic instead of filament in their reticles and didn’t tell us?

 

[OkieStubble]

Since @OkieStubble mentioned all illuminated reticles fade, but it beats the quoted 10-15 min.

Thank you for humbling me and proving that every single utterance from my lips may not always be 100% accurate.

I just threw the 10-15 minutes out there, because that’s what I experienced with the $1600 Leupold. You should test your razor and Shepherd and give us an exact amount of time for when or if they both do actually fade.

That way I can publicly stand corrected. I have no problem whatsoever to fact check or correct any claims or statements I have made. Honesty & Integrity is all we really have. I appreciate your help with staying in the safety of it’s boundaries.

You are a good friend.

 

[OkieStubble]

Will some fade quicker than others? For sure,

Since @OkieStubble mentioned all illuminated reticles fade, but it beats the quoted 10-15 min.

I would like to officially correct my ‘I stand corrected’?

Sometimes, ya just gotta read all the quotes.

 

[nikonNUT]

Scalarworks LEAP/08 30mm Scope Mount — Free 2 Day Shipping w/ code 2DAYAIR — 4 models

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5.7 oz. QD

I like the Scalarworks LEAP a LOT! They are an ingenious piece of engineering but I have to ask myself how badly I need...
1) a QR mount (debatable obviously!)?
2) Is an ounce worth $300.00? Also debatable.