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Beginner set advice

Hi everyone from Australia,

Long time lurker, just signed up today however.

After a year of exclusive straight razor shaving and just purchasing a fourth razor I feel like its time to learn to hone myself.

The vibe I get is - coticule with slurry progression is good but steep learning curve, naniwa super stones are a safe bet, norton has fallen out of fashion despite the introduction guide.

My razors have been honed by a honemeister recently.

I was looking at getting naniwa ss 3k/8k/10-12k and a diamond plate for lapping. Thoughts?

Part of me wants to try an alternate finishing stone - a black ark or something jnat. Could I drop the 10-12k in exchange?

Anything else I would be missing to start honing? Plan is to get a gold dollar or start on my dovo best quality.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
My recommendation is to start with lapping films rather than whetstones. Lapping films take some variables out of the equation like honing surface flatness, variable grit sizes, etc.

Once you can consistently hone good shave-ready edges using lapping films, then move on to whetstones, synthetic or natural, where you lapping film experience will hold you in good stead.
 
Your approach looks fine to me... My starting setup (I have only been honing for 6 months, but am getting great edges) is a 2k Shapton Glass as a bevel setter. A 5k Shapton Kuromaku, and an 8k Naniwa Gouken. I then finish on naturals. Mainly because I prefer those edges. Currently a Trans Ark, but I also have a slate (Black Shadow) that I will likely continue to use as a pre-finisher.

I'm in NZ, so sourcing stones for a reasonable price is even worse that in Oz: what I have assembled has mostly been determined by what was avaliable locally, free shipping (in the case of the 5 & 8K), and the help of @Tomo who facilitated the trans ark from a seller in Darwin.
 
I think naniwa or shapton is good. Getting a bevel setter, then synthetic up to 8k. For finishijg have you tried different natural edges and know what type of edge you prefer?
 
First, welcome @SealsMcLovin!

I have never used lapping film. Sounds like too many moving parts for me. Coticules with slurry is totally cool, but dilucot comes with a steep learning curve. I really like synthetic stones for bevel setting and midrange work, and natural stones for finishing. My recommendation is to get 1k, 3k/4k and 8k synthetics.

I love my Shapton HR 1k, 4k and 8k. And use my 20 mm Naniwa Super Stone 12k a lot - especially when honing a razor for the first time - it's my gold standard.

I have had very good experience buying new hard Arks from Dan's and new finishing Coticules from Ardennes-Coticule - you just need to tell Rob what you want.

And the great thing about buying a Coticule is you can use it for finishing with only water, and still learn dilucot.

Yes, buying a set of new synthetic stones costs money but if you ever lose interest you can sell them on the BST.
 
I would get a shapton gs hr 4k, a coticule and a 12k super stone.
The cutting speed of the shapton can in my opinion replace a lower grit stone.
The coticule can be used for allot of different tasks, depending on what you get. Coticule to ss 12k is a really nice combination. Or just a coticule on it's own.
The difference between a well done synthetic edge and a natural stone edge is quite small.
 
Add magnification to the list. The Carson Micro-Brite 60/100x, at $15 is a good starter.

Your stone grit selection will be determined by what you plan to hone. If you are just refreshing, pre pro honed razors, a 12k or good 8k, Naniwia Snow White or Fuji are all you need, to learn to refresh and finish an edge.

If you plan to hone eBay or Antique store beaters, you will at least need a 1k.

I would not recommend the Naniwia Super Stones, they load up easily and for a new honer this is just one more variable that slows the learning process. Take a look at this thread (GD66 Bevel Set - How to). He is a new honer using Super Stones, you might ask his opinion.

Despite all the advice to do so, Do Not learn on a Gold Dollar. Learning to hone is about eliminating as many variables as possible. A new Gold Dollar is a box of variables that must be repaired before it can be honed.

Get a decent well ground razor and maintain it.
 
For a finish stone you might want to look at JNAT's, little slower but very smooth. I have a Suehiro G20K which give a nice finish. Today I put the same razor on a JNAT, and I wish I had tried them sooner. Additionally get a nice strop leather and cloth, Thiers Issard Pate A Razor for cloth side. You shouldn't be disappointed.

I have done the balsa and diamond paste method in the beginning. I have gotten rid of all my balsa. I now use the Thiers Issard 4 sided strop for Diamond paste with the Their Issard Diamond Paste. Really keeps the edge nice between honing.

Just my thoughts, but I do want to try the Shapton Glass Seven set.
 
I think you’re on the right track. If you’re going to shave with a straight razor these days, you eventually need to learn to hone them. The local barber won’t be able to help you anymore. It’s actually not that hard because, unlike knives, razors all have a built in bevel guide.

Arks are great finishers and very consistent. If you’re drawn to Arks, follow your instinct. You won’t be disappointed with a surgical black or trans from Dans. Arks aren’t the lottery that Coticules and Jnats can be. I personally consider arks to be post finishers. To get the best out of them you need a shave ready edge going in. They then take it to the next level. They’ve gotten expensive recently but a good ark will last many lifetimes.


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In terms of progressions you have a couple of options. You will want to consider how often you plan on using it. All going well you won’t need it very much. It’s mostly just for setting up new razors or repairing damaged ones.


Option 1: 3M Lapping Film and acrylic substrate

It works, it’s cheap, it’s easy and it’s forgiving. All good things when you’re starting out. You can get a full set up with plenty of spare sheets for around $100 AUD delivered. There’s a bit of overlap in the stages so you don’t have to be quite as precise. You won’t have to worry about flattening and the whole set up takes up little space when packed away. Pick up a few extra sheets of the coursest and finest grits.

The down sides are that it’s a little fiddly and eventually the sheets loose cutting power. For the money I just use a fresh sheet every time but you can definitely stretch them. You only need a third of a sheet. Make sure you do not get the adhesive backed sheets. See attached product codes.


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2. Option 2 Whetstones

I’m a big fan of the Shapton Glass, High Rockwell (HR) stones. They’re fast, they’re consistent, they’re well known, they’re compact and they never let me down. I consider them to be the gold standard. You can watch the chips of rescue razors melt away on the 500k grit stone. 1k quickly and accurately sets your bevels. The 3k and 10k quickly move you up to your finisher of choice.

Adding a Suehiro Gokumyo 20k synthetic finisher is the cherry on top of the progression. It’s the quickest way from A to B. Of course a set up like this will cost substantially more. By the time you add an Atoma Diamond plate you’re easily looking at $1,000+ AUD.

Either way your Arkansas edge will feel exactly the same. You’re really just paying for convenience in this case.

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Legion

Staff member
Just to offer a contrary point of view.

You mentioned coticules having a steep learning curve. Yeah.... to a point. But if I was starting again, I'd still start with one of those. But I am kind of a jump in and paddle like hell kind of a guy.

My arguments are;

You already know how to shave with a SR, and know what a shave ready edge feels like, so at least you aren't learning that at the same time.

Potentially you only need to buy one stone, not a whole progression.

If you change your mind later you will be able to sell the stone for what you paid or maybe more. All the coticules I have sold in the past I regret. Partly because I am a hoarder, but mostly because they are now worth WAY more than I bought and sold them for. And that trend doesn't look like slowing down anytime soon. If you try to sell used synth hones you will lose money, and lapping film is just a consumable.

Natural stones have mojo. If you are making all the effort to do something as esoteric as shave with a SR, mojo points should be a prime concern.
 

Legion

Staff member
Also, I would second what @H Brad Boonshaft said above about the Gold Dollars. They can be fun to experiment and mess with, but I would not consider them a beginner project, and they will add another layer of complication. Hit the swap meets and antique stores and try to find a vintage Bengall or similar that is in good shape. They can be had for $30-40AU pretty regually, and will be easier to hone than a GD. And again, you can sell it for what you paid if you wanted to later.

Vintage, not much hone wear (or at least even hone wear), and if it has rust, not on the cutting edge. The face and spine is just cosmetic and the cooties sand off.
 
Also, I would second what @H Brad Boonshaft said above about the Gold Dollars. They can be fun to experiment and mess with, but I would not consider them a beginner project, and they will add another layer of complication. Hit the swap meets and antique stores and try to find a vintage Bengall or similar that is in good shape. They can be had for $30-40AU pretty regually, and will be easier to hone than a GD. And again, you can sell it for what you paid if you wanted to later.

Vintage, not much hone wear (or at least even hone wear), and if it has rust, not on the cutting edge. The face and spine is just cosmetic and the cooties sand off.
Sorry mate. The Bengalls are taken. You’ll have to find something else.
 
Just to offer a contrary point of view.

You mentioned coticules having a steep learning curve. Yeah.... to a point. But if I was starting again, I'd still start with one of those. But I am kind of a jump in and paddle like hell kind of a guy.

My arguments are;

You already know how to shave with a SR, and know what a shave ready edge feels like, so at least you aren't learning that at the same time.

Potentially you only need to buy one stone, not a whole progression.

If you change your mind later you will be able to sell the stone for what you paid or maybe more. All the coticules I have sold in the past I regret. Partly because I am a hoarder, but mostly because they are now worth WAY more than I bought and sold them for. And that trend doesn't look like slowing down anytime soon. If you try to sell used synth hones you will lose money, and lapping film is just a consumable.

Natural stones have mojo. If you are making all the effort to do something as esoteric as shave with a SR, mojo points should be a prime concern.
Some good points there. If you get the right Coticule you could be golden. With four razors you also have the luxury of messing around with one until you get it right.

The trouble with Coticules is that they are highly variable. There’s no guarantee that they will finish a razor well. That could be an exercise in frustration. With synthetics you can at least be sure that your tools are up to it. You also have something to fall back on when you start experiencing with natural stones.
 

Legion

Staff member
Some good points there. If you get the right Coticule you could be golden. With four razors you also have the luxury of messing around with one until you get it right.

The trouble with Coticules is that they are highly variable. There’s no guarantee that they will finish a razor well. That could be an exercise in frustration. With synthetics you can at least be sure that your tools are up to it. You also have something to fall back on when you start experiencing with natural stones.
They do vary. But I’ve yet to own one that couldn’t finish a razor I don’t think. Some are certainly easier than others, and some may need a few tricks like finishing under running water or with oil, but most will get there.

And if you buy from the source, and tell them it’s for razor use, you have a better chance that they will suggest what is most suitable.

The biggest issue with that is the current international postage costs. But that is the same with Arks.
 
I think the Naniwa progression you’re thinking about is the way to go. I started SR shaving and honing about 8 months ago, so I’m not exactly a beginner any more, but I still remember well the frustration of honing, honing, honing and not getting anywhere. Learning a coticule at the same time would probably triple that frustration.

I started with film and just got my first “real” stone (a Naniwa SS 12k) a few weeks ago. The film gave me great edges, I just got sick of fiddling around with it, and I have a tendency to use it past its prime. I’d get a crappy edge that turned wonderful when I used a fresh piece of film.

Someone said get magnification, and I agree. I use a Belimo triplet (10x I think) and it works great. My view is that if you can’t see a chip at that magnification it’s not worth worrying about.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Hi everyone from Australia,

Long time lurker, just signed up today however.

After a year of exclusive straight razor shaving and just purchasing a fourth razor I feel like its time to learn to hone myself.

The vibe I get is - coticule with slurry progression is good but steep learning curve, naniwa super stones are a safe bet, norton has fallen out of fashion despite the introduction guide.

My razors have been honed by a honemeister recently.

I was looking at getting naniwa ss 3k/8k/10-12k and a diamond plate for lapping. Thoughts?

Part of me wants to try an alternate finishing stone - a black ark or something jnat. Could I drop the 10-12k in exchange?

Anything else I would be missing to start honing? Plan is to get a gold dollar or start on my dovo best quality.
Your gateway drug into honing is refreshing your formerly sharp edge, that has gone dull from normal use, and has no gross damage. For that, you need a finisher and nothing else. Your basic choices are natural stones, synthetic stones, and lapping film. Let's look at them in that order.

Natural stones such as Jnats, slates, coticules, etc demand a certain level of dedication to learn. This is not to say that you CAN NOT begin with a natural, only that the road is slightly less traveled by newbies, and has more twists and turns. If you are so moved, then go for it.

Synthetic stones can be meh or they can be very good, and usually are very straightforward in usage. I find the Naniwa Superstone 12k to be a good one, with consistent results if you keep it lapped. Not cheap, but not dreadfully expensive, either. Wide user base, lots of peer support. It is hard to go very wrong with choosing this stone for a finisher. I will be honest and say I have never owned or used a Shapton in that grit range so I can't compare, but those are the two big names in synthetic finishers. I recommend avoiding combo stones. Just get the solid 12k.

I believe lapping film is the easiest way to get excellent and extremely consistent results. It is also not expensive up front, and actually isn't too bad for ongoing costs, either, compared to the wear and replacement of an expensive stone. The major benefit of film is that it is as flat as the plate you mount it on, and that plate stays flat because it does not get any wear while honing. When a piece of film is worn, you replace it. A sheet makes three pieces, and each should do a dozen or more razors, at the finish stage, which is 1µ. There are finer grits, but they do not find a lot of favor with straight shavers who hone their own razors, and I would not even bother to experiment with them until you are turning out professional or better quality edges on the 1µ film. Read the lapping film thread for more details. It will answer all your questions, and in fact, you REALLY NEED to read and heed everything in that rather long thread, before you even shop for your plate and film. Serious. Don't waste your money or your time. Once you master film finishing, you can look into the proper preparation and use of the basted balsa, to turn your sharp edge into an extremely sharp edge. But learn the film first. Or stone, Whichever.

Nortons were once the go-to synthetic stone for razors, then they seem to have gone into a decline in quality and consistency. However, not long ago I picked up a new 1k and found it a rather effective bevel setter, fast, long wearing, and not an unruly stone. Maybe their former quality has returned? It did seem significantly coarser than other 1k stones, but after all it is 1k on the ANSI scale so it should come in at a lower grit rating on the JIS scale of the Naniwas. Even so, it seems coarse, and I call it equal to or a bit finer than the 600 grit Chosera. That's not a bad thing. It is pretty good for straightening out a problem blade. I have not tried the new Nortons in higher grits. They do not, AFAIK, make a 12k or finer. So initially you can ignore them.

Coticules are IMHO not much as finishers, but I like sharp. Coticules finish smoothly, but not, by today's jaded standards, sharp. Still, you could shave well enough off a coti. They are no harder to use than Jnats, maybe actually you could say they are simpler.

With film, you never need to lap a stone. But if you go with stones, IMHO the best way to lap is with sandpaper roll, 4" wide, glued to an 18" long x 6" wide x 3/4" thick plate of acrylic. With this setup, you never overrun the edge of the lapping media. A diamond plate will likely be smaller than your stone. Some guys say that is okay. I don't think it is. Your decision. For a quick lap to unload a stone, you can simply give it a quick rub with another stone up or down one step in your progression.

You can indeed forego the 12k synthetic if you finish on a Jnat, Surgical Black or Translucent Arkie, or many other naturals. If you want to go that route, then do it. Don't try to learn two methods at once. Master one or the other. Follow ONE HONER'S STYLE AND TECHNIQUE, and follow it exactly, until you get the same results. If you freestyle it, this will take you years. Simply copy and you will have a usable edge in no time, maybe right out the gate. Rigidly adhering to a system will give you quick gratification and confidence building. THEN if you feel inclined, knock your own thing down the path less traveled or not yet traveled. Just my suggestion.

Ironically, Dovo's Best Quality razors are actually their worst quality. They can be frustrating for a beginner. Once a GOOD honer who understands them has beaten them into shape, they are just fine. But raw, out of the box, they can be a nightmare. A GD can be almost as bad. The differences are a GD is cheap enough that it is expendable and easily replaceable, and also the GD has a more obtuse bevel angle, which could maybe be a good thing, is more likely to be a bad thing, and still more likely to be not a too terribly important issue.

I would start like I said, with maintenance honing, refreshing an edge that has gone North on you. When you get good at that, look for a razor that needs honing from scratch, and get the rest of your progression dialed in. Don't buy anything yet except for finishing. Get the other stuff later, after you know what you really want or need. Then, go nuts. Actually, like I said about following one guru's style, do the same when you do a complete hone from edge repair and bevel set, all the way to the finish. You will be glad you listened here. For your first self honed razor, pick one that was formerly sharp, and do not mess with any others. If you are gonna screw up a razor, do them one at a time, at least. Maybe you will only toast one instead of all. You can get help here on this forum if you fail the first time. Don't try your hand on a different one. Remember, your honemeister honed it up just fine, so you can, too.

Some of us here have evolved a system that we call "The Method", that is designed to give noobs a better than professional quality edge on the first or at least the second attempt, while keeping costs down to minimum. Within the parent thread are links to the sub threads, and ALL of your questions are answered there, if it has to do with Method honing. There are other ways, but I think it is the best way. Suit yourself. Whatever blows your kilt up.
 
Honestly, I'd ask specifically AUS members (we have a few).

Shipping internationally is not cheap, and being in AUS definitely changes your availability/cost and resale values in ways that US and even EMEA/UK members probably can't speak to.


Someone suggested film/paste. That's an option. For film you need a flat surface (thick acrylic or a pane of glass). For paste, most these days use thick acrylic with balsa pasted to it then lapped. I'd assume this is available locally for you, but maybe not depending on how rural your area is?

As someone mentioned, a natural finisher will hold value typically if you don't overpay for it. The exception I'd say would be Jnats... as Jnats can get VERY pricey and if you aren't meticulous about keeping the history of your stone and/or aren't a well known Jnat guy who folks trust to vouch for a stones quality... you limit your resale market to guys who trust their own skill to tell a stones quality from your pictures... and that can TANK resale value (Literally NO ONE will take your word on a stones description... the majority of international Jnat sellers are just making stuff up in stone descriptions and buyers will assume you bought from one of them unless you prove otherwise... and as such they'll assume any description is worthless.) A labelled Escher or a Trans ark doesn't have that problem. If you go jnat: 1: Don't go nuts on what you spend. 2: Buy from a trusted/detailed seller. 3: Save pictures of the stone from all sides before any lapping. Screenshots of the sellers listing. Etc etc etc. You want a MUSEUM dedicated to the stone in case you ever want to resell.

There's countless options in stones/hones... but as mentioned... the market in AUS is gonna make the best options different there than in the UK or US or Germany, etc, etc. I'd expect Japanese synths would be a decent deal there, but that's an assumption.

Another consideration is are you just maintaining or do you plan to restore razors? If you just want to keep razors you're using sharp; you just need a finishing method and your strop. Four razors aren't really a justification for a whole honing set unless you want to learn how just to know how. If all four are shave ready or were shave ready recently (and haven't been chipped/dropped/etc)... you really just need a finishing stone/film/balsa.


I've had two coticules that in MY opinion couldn't "Finish" a razor. But that's out of several hundred. Both were large (10"+) vintages that I expect were sold for non-razor use. I'd say roughly 20% of vintages and 50% of modern Coti's I've tried fell into an "unexceptional finish" camp. Good shaves but you won't fall in love with them the way a good coti finish often can make you. For the most part I'd say you're safe buying coticules; especially vintages.
 
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Just my take on the Super Stones as a guy just starting honing. I learned on these stones, I have 1-3-5-8-12k progression. Either the 3 or the 5 could be skipped, you don't need them all, 1-3-8 will work and 1-5-8 will work as well but you need to know what you're doing.

I wouldn't recommend these. The 12k is a great finisher and you can live with the issue of extra fast swarf load up. Maminky because you are honing with next to none pressure on it, because it is a finisher.

But other stones are a CHORE to use. The swarf build Up is there with just a little bit of tourquing (force only generated by my fingers) in seconds. It needs constant removal, otherwise you're not honing on the stones's surface but on a layer of removed steel.

When you need to put some pressure on the razor and remove some steel, it will ALL get imbeded into the surcafe of the Stone. I have to keep rubbing the stones with my palms after a few laps or one set of circles, to remove it. Eventually, after just two or three minutes I need to use a lapping plate. These stones are soft and thin so they go down the drain quick. I Made a beginner mistake and lapped too extensively, with Pressure and too often and I reduced the thickness of my 1k to 20%, maybe less, after a few days of learning and setting bevels over and over.

Naniwa super stones are not Bad stones, I learned to put on comfortable edges in two days. My edges will only improve with further experience in honing and using these stones. But the extra work of CONSTANTLY cleaning the surface is frustrating and it makes me not want to hone at all sometimes. Experienced honer only needs a few minutes on each stone, so they will not notice this too much, maybe they'll be on the next Stone by the time the current one loads Up too much. But a new guy will spend more time on each stone to make sure the work is finnished and he will be "punished" for it with these stones and their super quick swarf load-up.

I would recommend thicker, harder stones. For my next set I will go with:
Shapton pro 1k or 1.5k as a bevel setter
Shapton 3k or 5k
Naniwa Snow white 8k seems better than a Shapton 8k and is praised around here
My 12k SS will last a while since it doesn't need that much lapping and after the 12k I'll finnish with Diamond loaded balsa strops.

Shapton glass stones are harder and load less but they seem too thin for my liking.
 
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