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Battle of the Finishers

I would be curious about what people think about going from 12k to hard Ark.

I ask because I remember reading a thread about people getting better results going from 8k to hard Ark, but this is from memory.
I have tried this experiment many times using a few different 8K stones, (Naniwa Snow White, Fuji 8K, Shapton Glass 8K) to name a few.
Then I tried Shapton Glass 10K & 16K, Naniwa Pro 10K, 12K SS and a few naturals like Coticules, J-Nats & Thuri's.
For me the Nani 12K SS gives very good results if I'm jumping off a synth to the Ark as a finisher, the Shapton 16K & Gok20 also can be very good in this category.
J-Nat Suita finish another, very good option on some edges.
For me any edge that I can still comfortably shave off of will work and my best efforts have come from edges that are keener than 8K.
 
Following up on my last post... After finishing the Ark on 600 git SIC powder and breaking it in with a kitchen knives I restored the edge of my test razor with a full nani progression up to to 12k before it visited the black Ark.

The honing on the fresh surface was much smoother and finally as I would expect it from this Ark. I cleaned up the stone several times, but still I ran occasionally into some loose material which I knew would scratch the bevel, but it was much less than in the previous run.

So here are some before + after images of exactly the same spot on the blade. Please excuse the change of the lighting, but I believe it's good enough to see the differences. (Those are the images coming directly from the stones, without stropping)

Before the ark (coming from naniwa 12k)
_DSC7995-before.jpg


After the Ark
_DSC7995-after.jpg


There are clearly some new scratches added as I already expected.

The shave with this edge was actually very good. Sharper and even smoother than my last shave. This time I had no problem cutting trough my stubble, even ATG on the lower part of my throat was easy. Lesser edges can start tugging in this area.
Even if there is clearly still room for improvement here (looking at the images above), this was one of the best shaves I have had until today and it had this "shaving on autopilot" kind of feel to it, that I assume most of you know and like.
 
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I'm not convinced that all of those scratches are new. Many of them seen to align perfectly with scratches that are visible right at the apex on the 12k edge. Is it possible that the 12k polish somehow obscured some deeper, older scratches and the ark uncovered them again?

I don't even know how that would work. But the alignment makes me suspicious.
 
I'm not convinced that all of those scratches are new. Many of them seen to align perfectly with scratches that are visible right at the apex on the 12k edge. Is it possible that the 12k polish somehow obscured some deeper, older scratches and the ark uncovered them again?

I don't even know how that would work. But the alignment makes me suspicious.
I see what you mean. Very well spotted👍 Could be caused by the change in the light setup. A different angle changes how the light is reflected from the scratches. Next time I will have to take more care not to change the angle of the light source for better comparability.
 
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Following up on my last post... After finishing the Ark on 600 git SIC powder and breaking it in with a kitchen knives I restored the edge of my test razor with a full nani progression up to to 12k before it visited the black Ark.

The honing on the fresh surface was much smoother and finally as I would expect it from this Ark. I cleaned up the stone several times, but still I ran occasionally into some loose material which I knew would scratch the bevel, but it was much less than in the previous run.

So here are some before + after images of exactly the same spot on the blade. Please excuse the change of the lighting, but I believe it's good enough to see the differences. (Those are the images coming directly from the stones, without stropping)

Before the ark (coming from naniwa 12k)
View attachment 1376079

After the Ark
View attachment 1376080

There are clearly some new scratches added as I already expected.

The shave with this edge was actually very good. Sharper and even smoother than my last shave. This time I had no problem cutting trough my stubble, even ATG on the lower part of my throat was easy. Lesser edges can start tugging in this area.
Even if there is clearly still room for improvement here (looking at the images above), this was one of the best shaves I have had until today and it had this "shaving on autopilot" kind of feel to it, that I assume most of you know and like.
To me it looks like heavy pressure have been used during bevel set. The 12k is not hitting all the way to the apex. As a result bits of the edge is breaking off. There should not be any crunchy bits breaking loose at this stage.
What stone are you using for bevel setting? The 12k edge should be much cleaner.
In my opinion the Ark is not the issue.
 
Yup, those are deep bevel setting stria, which were masked by other stone stria and not removed.

That you have deep stria at the edge post Ark, is more an indication of technique. You may be using too much pressure and the back of the bevel is acting as a fulcrum lifting the edge off the stone.

Super stones are notorious for loading up. If you hone on a swarf loaded stone, you are not making full contact (removing steel) and the edge is slamming into the swarf stuck to the stone.

Do a quick lap to clean and remove the load up, prior to your finish laps. It is for that reason I pre-finish on a Fuji 8k with a near mirror finish, no stone load up.

No need to buy a new stone, just lap the 12k.

Joint the edge, a single lite stroke on the edge of the stone and reset the bevel on a clean 12k, watch your pressure and remove all the deep stria. A 12k super stone is/can be very aggressive.

Alternating your last lap direction. (make sure you are removing the previous stria), easier to see. Finish one stone with straight strokes the following grit heel leading.

Horizontal stria is likely from exuberant Zubin Mehta X strokes.
 
To me it looks like heavy pressure have been used during bevel set. The 12k is not hitting all the way to the apex. As a result bits of the edge is breaking off. There should not be any crunchy bits breaking loose at this stage.
What stone are you using for bevel setting? The 12k edge should be much cleaner.
In my opinion the Ark is not the issue.
Thanks for your feedback! I used the 1k Naniwa pro stone for bevel set.
 
Yup, those are deep bevel setting stria, which were masked by other stone stria and not removed.

That you have deep stria at the edge post Ark, is more an indication of technique. You may be using too much pressure and the back of the bevel is acting as a fulcrum lifting the edge off the stone.

Super stones are notorious for loading up. If you hone on a swarf loaded stone, you are not making full contact (removing steel) and the edge is slamming into the swarf stuck to the stone.

Do a quick lap to clean and remove the load up, prior to your finish laps. It is for that reason I pre-finish on a Fuji 8k with a near mirror finish, no stone load up.

No need to buy a new stone, just lap the 12k.

Joint the edge, a single lite stroke on the edge of the stone and reset the bevel on a clean 12k, watch your pressure and remove all the deep stria. A 12k super stone is/can be very aggressive.

Alternating your last lap direction. (make sure you are removing the previous stria), easier to see. Finish one stone with straight strokes the following grit heel leading.

Horizontal stria is likely from exuberant Zubin Mehta X strokes.
Thanks for your valuable feedback. This thread turns out to be a great learning experience for me 🙂
I'll watch my pressure and keep my Naniwas free from swarf.

This current edge already gave me a wonderful shave I'm exited to hear, that there is still so much potential to improve it further.

I just checked the edge through the Carson Microbrite 120x and no matter in which angle I look at the bevel, there is barely a scratch visible throu that Lupe (only the big ones created by the loose particles on the Ark) Be aware that those images I shared here, have higher magnification, detail and contrast than a regular Lupe. For reference, the bevel on this razor is very shallow (less than 1mm)
 
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Now you made me curious to see, if I can improve the edge. I lapped all naniwas on the surface plate. They are now free of swarf and and their flatness is checked with my new straightedge (very nice toy by the way). I will try to apply lighter strokes now and not listen to Zubin Mehta 😉
 
Now you made me curious to see, if I can improve the edge. I lapped all naniwas on the surface plate. They are now free of swarf and and their flatness is checked with my new straightedge (very nice toy by the way). I will try to apply lighter strokes now and not listen to Zubin Mehta 😉
Let the force be with you:)
 
What a fantastic thread. I am, for complicated reasons, involved in something like that myself. OK, they're not that complicated. I dinged two of my Iwasakis due to awkwardness while I had the flu, and I decided that, rather than get the dings out in the usual way, I would shave only with those two razors, and use different finishers on them after every shave, and compare. Seems like a more fun way to use up all that metal.

So far that's all synthetics and JNats, because it is what I have, but I do have a Dan's black ark that will come into play at some point.

Here's my conclusions so far:

I still don't get Naguras. Every JNat finisher I've tried has been better with diamond slurry than with any of the Big 4 Naguras, or any sequence of the Big 4 Naguras.

My magical Barber stone (a Jnat that came from a Kyoto barbershop going out of business) still beats all comers.

The Gokumyo 20K is surprisingly excellent. Keen and comfortable. My best JNat edges are better, but I'd feel more comfortable with my JNat expenditures if they were better by a wider margin. For crying out loud, the stone wasn't even meant for razors! How can it be that good?

I will always be attached to the super-keen Method edge, but there are other kinds of super-keen edges to be had, and I like them a lot. Some days, I like them much more.

Gokumyo 20K edge:
1639183174420.png
 
Okay, here's the result of the repeated progression Nani 1k-12k to Black Ark.

I think maybe it's shave ready 😎

Looks like you are coming along, and that edge may shave well. Ideally you want those hair fragments to silently & completely fall on the offhand side of the razor when using the HHT, looks like you are getting mostly violin cuts.
Keep at it!
 
Your base stone Jnat and Nagura are both natural stones and you have a natural cocktail, a lot will depend on how you mix the grits. Also, Mikawa stones are graded by strata, not by grit. So even though we assume the strata have a progression, it not definitive.

Every natural stone is different and you must learn your stone. Some base stones can remove 1k stia and finish on Diamond slurry. Slurry performance can vary depending on how much and how thick you make your slurry and slurry can differ depending on how it breaks down and by how much steel swarf is in the slurry. I prefer a thinner slurry and add or make new slurry, if more aggression is needed.

If you go to the Jnat from a near mirror, 8 or 12k bevel, it may be easier for you to gage your stone and nagura performance as your results will be only from the Jnat and Nagura. When experimenting or learning, minimize as many variables.

I have a full Asano Mikawa stones and usually only use the Tenjou. You have to calibrate your stone to the nagura, different base stones may produce different results with the same nagura. Your honing technique also will make a difference. Experiment.

What stone are you coming off of, going to the SG20? The edge looks good but lots of stria on the bevel. The more you refine you bevels the better the edge.

SG20 works best as a finisher, 2-4 laps for me. Works very well with a micro bevel.
 
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Your base stone Jnat and Nagura are both natural stones and you have a natural cocktail, a lot will depend on how you mix the grits. Also, Mikawa stones are graded by strata, not by grit. So even though we assume the strata have a progression, it not definitive.

Every natural stone is different and you must learn your stone. Some base stones can remove 1k stia and finish on Diamond slurry. Slurry performance can vary depending on how much and how thick you make your slurry and slurry can differ depending on how it breaks down and by how much steel swarf is in the slurry. I prefer a thinner slurry and add or make new slurry, if more aggression is needed.

If you go to the Jnat from a near mirror, 8 or 12k bevel, it may be easier for you to gage your stone and nagura performance as your results will be only from the Jnat and Nagura. When experimenting or learning, minimize as many variables.

I have a full Asano Mikawa stones and usually only use the Tenjou. You have to calibrate your stone to the nagura, different base stones may produce different results with the same nagura. Your honing technique also will make a difference. Experiment.

What stone are you coming off of, going to the SG20? The edge looks good but lots of stria on the bevel. The more you refine you bevels the better the edge.

SG20 works best as a finisher, 2-4 laps for me. Works very well with a micro bevel.
I have an Asano Mejiro i could not get to work. I found out later that the base stone was not a good match. When i used it with a harder base stone and applied less pressure on the nagura it completely changed things.
I am only missing a koma, but not for long😎 Maxim now have one less in stock.
 
Just be aware, according to Sakamoto, re Gilmore video, Mejiro can be finer than Koma, again base stone dependent.

I have had better luck finishing on Tomo Nagura than, Mejiro or Koma Mikawa. I have a wide selection of Tomo Nagura and have tested against all my base stones to find which produce the best shaving edge for each stone. I cannot predict which edge will be better by looking at the bevel and edge, only by shaving.

My usual Nagura progression is Tsushima, thick-ish slurry, (it will quickly give you a Kazumi bevel and remove stria) from a near mirror, 8K Fuji bevel, to Tenjyou with thinnish slurry, then a hard Tomo Nagura thin slurry to finish. Some hard stones finish well on a thin 600 diamond slurry.

Once I have a finished edge I like, very lightly joint the edge, strop on firehose and on Chrome Oxide on Polyester canvas,(to remove any burr) about 10 laps and reset the bevel to finish, about 20-30 slow laps, on whatever slurry I finished on. Strop on clean vintage Kanoyama flax linen and Kanoyama leather to finish.

If you do not have an assortment of Tomo to test, but do have other stones, try using the end of your base stones, just ensure that there is no hard Kawa, skin on the edge or file the corner away from the Kawa so that you are making slurry from the stone and not Kawa.

I find if I use the Tsushima to first set the bevel and lay an even Kazumi base, I need less slurry to refine the bevel and edge. Slurry can be added, removed and refreshed or thinned as needed.

I add water to rehydrate slurry, then wipe half the stone with a damp sponge, to thin the slurry by half, and continue removing half to get to finish slurry, usually twice for super thin finish slurry. This slurry will not have a lot of steel in it, if it does, make new slurry.

Another thing to try is a micro bevel on thin finish slurry or the SG20. 3-4 laps on a Kapton taped spine.

Bottom line is you really do need to calibrate your Nagura, Mikawa or Tomo to each of your base stones for best performance.
 
One other thing to point out, which is sometimes missed - most people I believe (myself included) prefer Mikawa nagura as soaking stones. Between 10 - 30 mins, makes them much easier to use, especially I think on very hard base stones.
 
Yes, soaking can help, test your Mikawa to find how much soaking works best, it may be different for each stone, again natural stones. I do not soak the whole nagura, just set in a shallow rice bowl with about an inch of clean bottled water. My bride is notorious for leaving a ½ bottle of water in the car. I save that water and use it to hone. We have hard aquifer tap water, don’t know if it makes a difference, but can’t hurt.

Also, I find using a squirt bottle, (Lab wash bottle) allows you to flood the base stone and apply a drop or flood of water to keep your stone face wet and not as messy as a spray bottle.

Hone on a plastic food tray, to contain any runoff. Lab wash bottles are cheap and easier to use than condiment type squeeze bottles.
 
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