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Battle of the Finishers

I recently bought a few new finishing hones (and have two more on the way), so I thought I would be fun to somewhat systematically try my different finishers on different types of steel - starting with five different finishers (Nakayama Asagi, hard translucent Ark, Vermont green slate, Naniwa 12k, and Ozuku) across three types of steel (19th century Sheffield crucible steel, post WWII Solingen, and C135). Please feel free to join me with your own tests - the more the merrier. Should be a lot of fun! Let's get started.

For the first season, I will use a 19th century Wade & Butcher 7/8 near wedge with very good geometry. This is the second 19th century Sheffield I bought and restored.

Season 1, Episode 1 (S1E1). Nakayama Asagi finish I put on the razor back in May 2021. Excellent shave. Very sharp and very smooth edge. I could shave with this edge every day and be happy. Under the loupe the edge is quite smooth looking. Not as smooth as Naniwa 12k but pretty darn smooth looking.

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For testing stones, be sure that you go back to your pre-finisher every time. For me that’s a 6k or 8k Shapton Glass HC.

What about folks with just a coticule? Would going back to a light slurry and do a few sets of dilution be about the same?
 
For today's episode (S1E2), I used the Wade and Butcher with a hard translucent Ark finish. Sharp and smooth. Like butter when shaving up my neck - a litmus test.

What can I say, hard Ark seems to like 19th century Sheffield crucible steel. And whoever made this particular razor sure knew what they were doing.

For our next episode, I have already taken @Steve56's advice and went back to my Shapton HR 8k before finishing the edge on my Vermont green slate. Stay tuned!

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What slurry did you use on the Asagi, and how was it finished prior to the Jnat.

I have done similar testing, recently buying a Vermont slate and was unimpressed by the slate. Jnats and Ark edges are much better shaving edges, 12k Super Stone edge is harsh for me, (I have the old Pink one) can be improved with paste, but is a great stone for jumping to a natural.

Yes, for testing, I would joint the edge and reset on the pre-finisher to ensure the new edge is just from the finisher.
 
Very interested in the Vermont Green Slate been considering purchasing one for a few months now at the price and it's almost a no brainier but would like to hear and see your thoughts.
 
So, many years ago I learned on and maintained my first razor for 10 years with just a translucent Ark. I have tried most all finishers available and the only thing that compares to an Ark edge is a good Jnat and possibly film, though Arks and Jnats are a bit smoother on the skin.

The Vermont will shave but not as keen as a good Thuringian and not even close to a Jnat or Ark in terms of keenness and skin smoothness.
 
So, many years ago I learned on and maintained my first razor for 10 years with just a translucent Ark. I have tried most all finishers available and the only thing that compares to an Ark edge is a good Jnat and possibly film, though Arks and Jnats are a bit smoother on the skin.

The Vermont will shave but not as keen as a good Thuringian and not even close to a Jnat or Ark in terms of keenness and skin smoothness.
It's really interesting that you say that. I haven't shaved straight off film for several months, but at the time the finish was acceptable but not necessarily great. I'm sure a lot of that was just me. But they were plenty keen. Lately as I've been learning my trans ark, it's really crazy how it doesn't feel "sharp" during the shave but it's as close or closer than my diamond balsa edges.

Like, every time I think, "this won't be a close shave" and then after each pass I'm shocked at how much it's actually taking off.
 
What slurry did you use on the Asagi, and how was it finished prior to the Jnat.

I have done similar testing, recently buying a Vermont slate and was unimpressed by the slate. Jnats and Ark edges are much better shaving edges, 12k Super Stone edge is harsh for me, (I have the old Pink one) can be improved with paste, but is a great stone for jumping to a natural.

Yes, for testing, I would joint the edge and reset on the pre-finisher to ensure the new edge is just from the finisher.

I originally set the bevel with Chosera 1k, Shapton HR 4k, Shapton HR 8k, and finished with Nakayama Asagi. I then touched up the edge with the same Nakayama Asagi a second time before starting this thread. I use a fine (red) 3" Dia-Sharp Credit Card Sized Sharpener to raise slurry. Have never had a problem with loose diamonds. The card is pretty fried at this point.

I bought the Vermont slate at the very beginning of my journey, used it with water and glycerin not getting very good results, and put it in the drawer. I recently pulled it out of the drawer and tried it with oil - much better. Oil was the answer for me.
 
I'm currently running my own little comparison of finishers. Last week I have been shaving with the same setup every day using my Böker Classic finished on Naniwa 12k and I am very happy with the results.

The first shave of the edge was still a bit crisp, but after going back to the Naniwa 12k for a few strokes, the next shaves where wonderful and just as I like them. Very sharp and not harsh at all.

Next week I'm moving on to the black Ark.
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I'm currently running my own little comparison of finishers. Last week I have been shaving with the same setup every day using my Böker Classic finished on Naniwa 12k and I am very happy with the results.

The first shave of the edge was still a bit crisp, but after going back to the Naniwa 12k for a few strokes, the next shaves where wonderful and just as I like them. Very sharp and not harsh at all.

Next week I'm moving on to the black Ark.

Nice! I really like the Naniwa 12k finish and also do not find it harsh.

Will you be using oil on your Ark? When I got my hard black Ark a year ago, I was put off by the whole oil thing. Now I really enjoy using the oil.
 
Nice! I really like the Naniwa 12k finish and also do not find it harsh.

Will you be using oil on your Ark? When I got my hard black Ark a year ago, I was put off by the whole oil thing. Now I really enjoy using the oil.
Yes, I bought some baby oil and already used it for a quick test on the Ark. I am holding the stone in my palm for honing, so It's a bit messy compared to using water, but still okay if you don't use a huge amount of oil.

I have also some glycerine that I could try, but I'm not sure how glycerine/water is changing the results on the Ark compared to mineral-/baby oil.
Also I'm not sure about the right mixture of water/glycerine.
 
I should add that I used mineral oil with the Vermont green slate. Tried water, and I prefer the oil with this stone.
 
Yes, I bought some baby oil and already used it for a quick test on the Ark. I am holding the stone in my palm for honing, so It's a bit messy compared to using water, but still okay if you don't use a huge amount of oil.

I have also some glycerine that I could try, but I'm not sure how glycerine/water is changing the results on the Ark compared to mineral-/baby oil.
Also I'm not sure about the right mixture of water/glycerine.
Have you tried using shaving soap on the Ark? The last times i used my Ark i used an LEA shaving stick. I just rubbed it on an wet stone and spread it with my fingers. I have tried Ballistol (diluted), baby oil etc, but so far i like a little shaving soap the best. I am new to honing on Arks, but so far they seem to give a nice edge.
It has been a long time since i have inspected edges under magnification, but i got curios after using my Blue Black Ark.
This is a concave bevel were the Ark only have affected 2/3 of the bevel. The bevel is shaped using coticules and finished on an blue black. These stones are really grate for thinning the bevel if you convex one side. The edge is finished on the flat side. You have two transition lines, which is not easy to capture here. You basically end up with three bevels that are blended to one. The affect is actually easier to see with an loupe. No tape was used here, just stones with different radiuses.
I ended up with a nice comfortable edge. The photo was taken after one shave, post stropping.

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Have you tried using shaving soap on the Ark? The last times i used my Ark i used an LEA shaving stick. I just rubbed it on an wet stone and spread it with my fingers. I have tried Ballistol (diluted), baby oil etc, but so far i like a little shaving soap the best. I am new to honing on Arks, but so far they seem to give a nice edge.
It has been a long time since i have inspected edges under magnification, but i got curios after using my Blue Black Ark.
This is a concave bevel were the Ark only have affected 2/3 of the bevel. The bevel is shaped using coticules and finished on an blue black. These stones are really grate for thinning the bevel if you convex one side. The edge is finished on the flat side. You have two transition lines, which is not easy to capture here. You basically end up with three bevels that are blended to one. The affect is actually easier to see with an loupe. No tape was used here, just stones with different radiuses.
I ended up with a nice comfortable edge. The photo was taken after one shave, post stropping.

View attachment 1373717
Haven't tried soap on the Ark as of now (in fact, I've only used it twice since I got it), but I'm going to add it to the list of things to test. How does the soap improve the result from your experience?

This triple bevel is really nice, I didn't know, it can also be done with convex stones.
 
I'm currently running my own little comparison of finishers. Last week I have been shaving with the same setup every day using my Böker Classic finished on Naniwa 12k and I am very happy with the results.

The first shave of the edge was still a bit crisp, but after going back to the Naniwa 12k for a few strokes, the next shaves where wonderful and just as I like them. Very sharp and not harsh at all.

Next week I'm moving on to the black Ark.
View attachment 1373490

So today I started my Ark week.

But before I used the Ark, I took the razor back to the Naniwa 8k as suggested in this thread for 20-30 X-Strokes. Then I went ahead and refined the edge on the Ark, which was loaded with baby oil.

I did a few circles at first, but quickly moved on to normal X-Strokes before finishing with some very light and short X-Strokes. The whole process took probably 30 minutes.

The first look through the loupe was sobering. There were some fairly deep horizontal scratch marks on the bevel that were not there before the Ark. Looking directly through the loupe from above, there was also a sparkling visible on the edge (that wasn't there before). So I cleaned the stone, poured in some fresh oil, and continued with some very, very light X strokes for probably another 10 minutes.

After that, I checked the bevel again with a magnifying glass, but it did not improve in the slightest.
At this point, HHT was barely possible. I then did some stropping on plain cordovan leather, which greatly improved the overall appearance of the edge. After the stropping, most of the sparkle on the edge was gone. The HHT was also acceptable now, but not great.

The shave was just okayish. Not harsh, but a clear step back in sharpness and efficiency compared to the Naniwa 12k.
I was clearly expecting a better result from this Ark and am not yet at the point where I want to accept this as the final result.

I'm pretty sure, that I did not commit any erratic stroke on the stone. I was thinking that the finishing of the stone probably needs some further refinement. It came very flat from Dans, but I still lapped it and chamfered all edges using 400 Grit and 1000 Grit sandpaper on my certified flat granite plate, which was not all that hard as expected (probably because it was already very flat). After the lapping I sharpened a kitchen knive for 5 Minutes on the stone. However, when honing my razor on this stone, it is still not running completely smooth over the surface. Sometimes (not every stroke) I seem to run randomly into some loose, coarse material which makes gliding/honing rough (probably explains the deep scratch marks I see on the bevel). I don't know where this loose material could be coming from, as the stone is already very polished and clean.

I'm thinking about lapping the Ark again, probably with a higher grit (2k) and burnish the surface even more, but I'm not sure if that will help.

I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the results I saw today.
 
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Haven't tried soap on the Ark as of now (in fact, I've only used it twice since I got it), but I'm going to add it to the list of things to test. How does the soap improve the result from your experience?

This triple bevel is really nice, I didn't know, it can also be done with convex stones.
I think as long as you have some sort of lubrication it really does not matter that much what you use. It is more a personal preference. Different feedback and honing sensation, more or less the same result.

With regards to convex stones, in my opinion the benefit is that you can manipulate where you are working on the bevel. On the last curved stone the bevel is allowed to flex, which enables you to thin the last part of the bevel. This needs to be done in steps to avoid damage to the edge. The last stone if it is flat acts as an high angle knife stroke to clean the apex.
Another benefit is that you can start with some pressure on your first stone without chipping the apex because it does not make contact with the stone. This enables you to start the bevel set with a much finer stone utilizing more pressure.
The radius of the stones is not that important. The math behind the concave bevel shows that it should not make much difference. We are disregarding the most important factors. The bevel is flexing and you are effectively creating a thinner more flexible bevel plane.
I can see the affect with my loupe and the shave is quite different.
 
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