Lately, after taking up honing and discovering how hard it can be sometimes, I've wondered about the quality of honing 100-150 years ago. Before the invention of the internet, of artificial hones, DMTs, pastes and powders, and the availabity of Japanese hones (in America), exactly what was considered a well honed blade? I'm guessing most razor owners did their own honing and had a lot less free time than we do today. Were their razors sharpsharp, sharp or perish the thought,..........dull? Anybody here have a clue? Anybody here hone strictly old school? Whatever that is.
Back in the day.
- Thread starter Tolduonce
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i think they did had more time then we do.of course their razor's wouldn't as sharp as ours. Now days we are fragile. want perfect edge etc.
The belgian coticule has been around for centuries; Julius Caesar mentions them in his De Bello Gallico, and lists the acquisition of this hone among the benefits of conquering the area.
Novaculite has been used for a long time for sharpening razors and chisels; this is the abrasive contained in the turkish oilstone, charnley forest hone, and arkansas stones. The Charnley Forest hone has recently become a bit of a cult favorite over on SRP, among guys with some of the finest hones the japanese can make or mine.
Jewelers rouge, graphite, and chalk are not exotic abrasives. Even chromium oxide has been around a long time (at one time it was the primary pigment used for green paint). Smear any of these on a chunk of cloth or leather and you can get a razor as sharp as you care to. Dovo Red paste is jewelers rouge, Dovo black paste is graphite, and their white paste is chalk. Low-tech, time-proven, and works like a charm even by modern standards. Where they fall down is in the numbers game - the micron race.
Novaculite has been used for a long time for sharpening razors and chisels; this is the abrasive contained in the turkish oilstone, charnley forest hone, and arkansas stones. The Charnley Forest hone has recently become a bit of a cult favorite over on SRP, among guys with some of the finest hones the japanese can make or mine.
Jewelers rouge, graphite, and chalk are not exotic abrasives. Even chromium oxide has been around a long time (at one time it was the primary pigment used for green paint). Smear any of these on a chunk of cloth or leather and you can get a razor as sharp as you care to. Dovo Red paste is jewelers rouge, Dovo black paste is graphite, and their white paste is chalk. Low-tech, time-proven, and works like a charm even by modern standards. Where they fall down is in the numbers game - the micron race.
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- #4
Yep, I took into account that really nice stones have been around forever. I wonder if Joe Sodbuster out in Iowa had access to them though or if he could afford them. My guess is that they've always been expensive relatively speaking. The other abrasives may have been the weapon of choice. Just wondering if there was some other common "find it in your own backyard" abrasives used. Then again I keep hearing about how all the good stones were mined a long time ago. It's possible old Joe had a 12" X 3" Coticule and got it for a buck or so. Forgive me. I tend to over think things.
Most people had a hone they bought in a shop and spent what they could afford. Most who did their own honing had mediocre sharpness by our standards today but they could periodically take the razor to a barber or knife shop and get expert honing. So I would say middle class people probably had sharp razors and lower class people had duller ones. In general of course.
I would imagine that on a whole, the razors were not as sharp as they are today. The communication abilities and the postal service was not as good as it is now.
Thus, I would imagine that not everyone even owned a straight razor. They were just as expensive as they are now, if not more so. Therefore, people probably went to the local barber for honing and shaving services. Those that did do their own honing would have to rely upon what the local store had to offer. Its not like they had the internet or even the phone back then.
Even though all the great stones existed back then, they were probably out of the reach of the average man. They are only affordable to us because everyone uses safety razors. Imagine if everyone used a straight razor and they all wanted a coticule/barber's hone...
However, they did exist and people still had them, and its not hard to imagine that they knew how to use it. That said, I would say at the top, they got as good an edge as we do now. However, the range of sharpness around the globe was probably quite large. Most people probably had to make do with what we would consider mediocre shaves.
Thats just my ill-informed opinion though.
Thus, I would imagine that not everyone even owned a straight razor. They were just as expensive as they are now, if not more so. Therefore, people probably went to the local barber for honing and shaving services. Those that did do their own honing would have to rely upon what the local store had to offer. Its not like they had the internet or even the phone back then.
Even though all the great stones existed back then, they were probably out of the reach of the average man. They are only affordable to us because everyone uses safety razors. Imagine if everyone used a straight razor and they all wanted a coticule/barber's hone...
However, they did exist and people still had them, and its not hard to imagine that they knew how to use it. That said, I would say at the top, they got as good an edge as we do now. However, the range of sharpness around the globe was probably quite large. Most people probably had to make do with what we would consider mediocre shaves.
Thats just my ill-informed opinion though.
I don't see any reason why they could not sharpen as well or even better than the we do today. The internet is great, sure, but it isn't hands on - you can read about how to play football on the net, but it doesn't make you a great footballer!
What they did have was a proper, organic network - people. I only personally know a handful of people who use straights today, and only one or two of those live anywhere near me. I don't expect it was like that at all when straights were all that anyone had.
Look at blokes today: chinwagging at work, in the pub, on the street - you can't honestly tell me that knowledge wasn't disseminated in that way without the need for books or the internet.
Were stones like coticules, charnley forest, water of Ayr always as expensive as they are today? A little thought about the laws of supply and demand might prove instructive. When these stones were used by barbers, razor owners, carpenters, the medical profession, jewellers, etc, etc they must have been in great demand and therefore cheaper. Who uses them now? disposable blades, disposable scalpels and blades, synthetic hones for carpenters and jewellers and so on mean that only the minority use them, so they are correspondingly more expensive.
I just don't get why people feel the need to knock past-times as much as they do. I get the feeling that if adult people from the 1940s - 1960s could see what it is like today, a lot of them would be less than impressed. And that isn't idle speculation!
What they did have was a proper, organic network - people. I only personally know a handful of people who use straights today, and only one or two of those live anywhere near me. I don't expect it was like that at all when straights were all that anyone had.
Look at blokes today: chinwagging at work, in the pub, on the street - you can't honestly tell me that knowledge wasn't disseminated in that way without the need for books or the internet.
Were stones like coticules, charnley forest, water of Ayr always as expensive as they are today? A little thought about the laws of supply and demand might prove instructive. When these stones were used by barbers, razor owners, carpenters, the medical profession, jewellers, etc, etc they must have been in great demand and therefore cheaper. Who uses them now? disposable blades, disposable scalpels and blades, synthetic hones for carpenters and jewellers and so on mean that only the minority use them, so they are correspondingly more expensive.
I just don't get why people feel the need to knock past-times as much as they do. I get the feeling that if adult people from the 1940s - 1960s could see what it is like today, a lot of them would be less than impressed. And that isn't idle speculation!
Some of the best straight razor equipment comes from the early 1900's.
Here is an example of a paddle strop from that period.
http://www.belowstairs.co.uk/acatalog/DSCF125051d.JPG
I have seen this item and the leather is simply superb. You can see that the one side has been pasted. It's better leather than on any modern stuff, no disrespect to the guys making fine quality products today.
Now to suggest we have better today is just wrong.
The average working man would go to his barber for a weekly shave.
The middle class man would have his razor sharpened periodically by the local barber.
The wealthy man would go to the barber daily or have his butler shave him.
If a barber couldn't provide a comfortable close shave to his customers he had no customers. They had good hones and pastes and strops.
The Sheffield steel razors from the same era are superb. Delivering a smooth close shave.
The other thing to remember is that relatively, in England at that time, there were some wealthy men to whom money was no object and they demanded the best.
The antique shop that has the paddle strop photographed above had a similar strop with an ivory and silver handle from one of the famous straight makers. Just stunning workmanship .
He also had an old badgers hair brush. It had a bone handle and the best badger hair I have ever seen. Made the top modern brushes look, well, pathetic is a good word.
I don't think that they have the same quality of steel , badger hair, leather or the craftsmen today to either match or even compete with the products that were available.
Now ask the guys who like soaps about the demise of animal fat soaps.
Another thing that was better, many years ago.
Here is an example of a paddle strop from that period.
http://www.belowstairs.co.uk/acatalog/DSCF125051d.JPG
I have seen this item and the leather is simply superb. You can see that the one side has been pasted. It's better leather than on any modern stuff, no disrespect to the guys making fine quality products today.
Now to suggest we have better today is just wrong.
The average working man would go to his barber for a weekly shave.
The middle class man would have his razor sharpened periodically by the local barber.
The wealthy man would go to the barber daily or have his butler shave him.
If a barber couldn't provide a comfortable close shave to his customers he had no customers. They had good hones and pastes and strops.
The Sheffield steel razors from the same era are superb. Delivering a smooth close shave.
The other thing to remember is that relatively, in England at that time, there were some wealthy men to whom money was no object and they demanded the best.
The antique shop that has the paddle strop photographed above had a similar strop with an ivory and silver handle from one of the famous straight makers. Just stunning workmanship .
He also had an old badgers hair brush. It had a bone handle and the best badger hair I have ever seen. Made the top modern brushes look, well, pathetic is a good word.
I don't think that they have the same quality of steel , badger hair, leather or the craftsmen today to either match or even compete with the products that were available.
Now ask the guys who like soaps about the demise of animal fat soaps.
Another thing that was better, many years ago.
That's a great shop there in Hungerford, English - I've been there myself a couple of times. It always amazes me when I go into places like that how well made things used to be - even the poor quality stuff had a lot of work put into it.
I bought a gold-washed (horror of horrors - another "fanatic" - NOT), acid-etched, covered tang Fisher straight there once and an old Wheatsheath razor - they knocked quite a bit off the price for me.
I bought a gold-washed (horror of horrors - another "fanatic" - NOT), acid-etched, covered tang Fisher straight there once and an old Wheatsheath razor - they knocked quite a bit off the price for me.
By the way said:
I don't consider the 1940's or even the 1920's to be in the distant past. My grandfather was alive during both eras. Anything within living memory is just the past, not the distant past.
The OP asked about sharpness 100-150 years ago. During the 1850's-1900's. A very different time period than the 40's. Most people were not part of the middle class back then. The fastest form of communication was the telegraph, shipping a stone from Germany would be very expensive. Heck, the west wasn't even tamed. I'm sure they had more pressing problems than how to get a great shave out there.
I have no doubt that the years after WWII brought great improvements to the lives of the average person and an increase in global commerce. But just before the war, there was the great depression. Most people around the world lived very destitute lives. I am pretty sure most of those people would look at our society with envy. Even with all its faults. We don't have soup kitchens, food lines, everyone has their own razor, running water, electricity, etc.
I believe I said past-times, not "distant" past. What I had in mind was the bright new future people dreamed of then, a chance to start again after the war without repeating the same mistakes, jet flight, the first man on the moon and all the ideas of a new technological age. What happened? The moon landing is just a fading memory, concorde came and went, we're still grieving over the losses in Iraq - we aren't that much further forward.
As far as the distant past is concerned, I guess the germans didn't pay to import stones from Germany, the belgians didn't pay to import stones from Belgium, the welsh didn't pay to import stones from Wales, the scots didn't pay to import stones from Scotland - get the idea?
No doubt everyone has more pressing problems than getting a great shave - maybe it was as much of a minority interest then as it is now - its certainly not the be-all and end-all of everything. The difference as I see it is that they HAD to use what was available - straight razors. We don't. Most of us dont. You get familiar with what you have and what you use everyday. There are enough people on this forum who have (re-)discovered old wisdom - just how many of our antecedents took what we know about straights as second-nature back then.
Maybe that old adage of not trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs would be more apposite as not trying to teach your grandpa to shave whiskers!
And for what its worth, its not such a rosy world. It's close on a depression now, and there are still food handouts, even in London.
As far as the distant past is concerned, I guess the germans didn't pay to import stones from Germany, the belgians didn't pay to import stones from Belgium, the welsh didn't pay to import stones from Wales, the scots didn't pay to import stones from Scotland - get the idea?
No doubt everyone has more pressing problems than getting a great shave - maybe it was as much of a minority interest then as it is now - its certainly not the be-all and end-all of everything. The difference as I see it is that they HAD to use what was available - straight razors. We don't. Most of us dont. You get familiar with what you have and what you use everyday. There are enough people on this forum who have (re-)discovered old wisdom - just how many of our antecedents took what we know about straights as second-nature back then.
Maybe that old adage of not trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs would be more apposite as not trying to teach your grandpa to shave whiskers!
And for what its worth, its not such a rosy world. It's close on a depression now, and there are still food handouts, even in London.
Lovely debate......here is somefood for thought
I just think its funny that most of what we seek and desire as collectors/users are those very instruments produced in that era of time. Whether it be razor, hone or strop we can all appreciate the incredible craftsmanship required to produce such fine accountrements.
I would say, at least for the US, that by and large, the vast majority of users were folks that probably made their living by their hands, requiring some type of tactile skill. I would be hardpressed to say that they were generally not very good at honing a razor. If I were a bettin man I would always choose a skilled hand and an average stone over an unskilled hand and a superior stone.....Just my 2 cents.
I just think its funny that most of what we seek and desire as collectors/users are those very instruments produced in that era of time. Whether it be razor, hone or strop we can all appreciate the incredible craftsmanship required to produce such fine accountrements.
I would say, at least for the US, that by and large, the vast majority of users were folks that probably made their living by their hands, requiring some type of tactile skill. I would be hardpressed to say that they were generally not very good at honing a razor. If I were a bettin man I would always choose a skilled hand and an average stone over an unskilled hand and a superior stone.....Just my 2 cents.
H
Hanzo
Only one thing to add, that is rich men , people like Dean Swift for example had local barbers come directly to their home for a daily shave so I don't think they much trifled with honing.
Also, in reading barbershop history I think we are underestimating how many men from all walks of life relied on the barber for a shave, on average once or several times a week.In America vintage Barbershop photos show barbershops anywhere you can imagine, from suburbs to small neighborhoods to work camps .
Also, in reading barbershop history I think we are underestimating how many men from all walks of life relied on the barber for a shave, on average once or several times a week.In America vintage Barbershop photos show barbershops anywhere you can imagine, from suburbs to small neighborhoods to work camps .
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- #16
Man, this is getting interesting. When I asked my original question I was referring to a certain type of man. Here's a description of him. Joe the Sodbuster (American), living somewhere in the middle of the country, nearest neighbor a couple miles away, farmer, seven kids, wife, land to till, rainfall and locusts to worry about, one razor shared by him and "the boys", three dollar emergency fund in the matress, whole family bathing maybe once a week, Joe and the boys shaving the Saturday before the circuit preacher came around, town and barber half a day away round trip, the sharpening "rock" used on shovels, plows, knives, axes and the razor, bowl haircut, fingernails kept short through hard labor, gone on to his reward around 50. Granted a good close shave may have been the menfolks true luxury, but equally likely was the fact that they just wanted to knock down the whiskers to a presentable level for Sunday meetin'. I don't know, I could be looking at the whole thing trough my limited 21st century myopic eyes. This isn't to say that things were like this in the big cities. Most likely, just the opposite was true. What we need here is some old (150 year-old) guy to chime in.
H
Hanzo
In the book " King Gillette, Russell Adams says 18th century America was all about beards as the fashion , being clean shaven was minority. In 19th century America he reckons that although blade manufacture had been improved dramatically in Sheffield and Solingen, razors themselves had not changed much since the Bronze Age models. He believes it was a problem for men to use the straight well , without cutting themselves. He says if men lacked the skill to self shave or the money for the barber that they would generally shave with a straight once or twice a week. He doesn't mention honing. I think it will be shortly that members understanding honing will be able to answer your question.
Too many variables to consider.
Honing a straight razor IS NOT the same as honing a knife or chisel, or plane, or any other tool. The skills do not necessarily translate over. Using the same technique you use to sharpen a knife will produce an edge that shaves. But it won't shave well. This is of course assuming you have an 8k stone. From personal experience, shaving off a 1k stone is too uncomfortable, I'd rather grow a beard. Shaving off a 4k stone is doable, but again, I wouldn't do it daily. Shaving off an 8k stone honing your razor like a knife with a really low angle = an ok shave. Definitely not the level of shave we like to experience.
Heres some food for thought, before I forget it. Exactly how many of your/our grandfathers have coticules lying around in the attic? Mine doesn't. His father didn't have one either. Hmmm.... They were around 50 years ago. That should probably tell you something about what tools the average man had in his possession.
As for how good Joe the Farmer in rural America's shaves would have been. I would venture he said **** it to shaving and let it grow out until he went to town and got a shave. Or, he had the skills and the tools and got a decent shave. The ultimate quality of the shave would then depend not upon his skills, but upon what tools he had available to him. As to what hones he had available to him. I don't know, probably barber's hones in America. Exotic stones from the UK, Germany, etc, were probably cost prohibitive. I would imagine mostly barber's bought those, since shaving was their trade. Ask Utopian the difference between a barber's hone shave v. a "normal" shave according to our very high standards. Its over at SMF if anyone wants to read it.
IME, shaving off something in the 8k range is perfectly acceptable. I don't mind it at all. But shaving off something in the 30k range is luxurious.
What - 150 yr old members presumably?
As an advocate of the Old Things are better philosophy myself, and out of purely academic interest, would you happen to remember the manufacturer of the brush that you mention.
Regards,
Stew
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