What's new

Asylum 17-4 and some Paradigm controversy

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well I saw a Paradigm 17-4 de razor (pretty expensive but very nice looking) on the bay and did some researching on it (since its in Wolfman razor price range). During my research I came across Bullgoose selling a Asylum 17-4 (plastic proto-type which is an example to order the ss version coming out in march),and there was a page talking about how Paradigm pretty much short changed him, therefore they were going to make the 17-4. Does anyone know more about Paradigm being shady? Or is Asylum being shady in producing this razor?
 
Last edited:
I know that the Paradigm 17-4 is a great razor - I used one today in fact. It's also hard to get since the run was very limited. It looks as if Bullgoose is taking pre-orders for an Aslyum version of what looks very like the Paradigm selling for $230. 17-4 steel is considered to be very hard to work. I seem to recall reading something about how the shop that made them took a bath. A razor made to the same dimensions from 304 or 316 stainless would presumably shave the same. Wolfman can certainly get a decent polish on 316 and they don't ding up easily. Paradigm still makes some other razors as far as I know. Their website says something about changing heat treatment to make the 17-4 easier to machine - very cryptic. I've no idea if they are shady or not. Their product is certainly very sound IMO. I would buy from them or Bullgoose without hesitation if they had a product that I wanted.
 
Hmm, asylum is only making 100 and I believe the pre-orders are all completed. Looks like a sweet razor, but I don't think I would pay wolfman prices for it. Well its a interesting story just wondering who was taking advantage of the other.
 
Paradigm is very much at fault for the whole debacle. I do wish Bullgoose did something with the outward appearance to make it more unique -- similar to RazoRock with the Lupo -- but apparently he has made some tweaks to make it shave smoother.
 
The entire debacle played out fully on another forum and the threads have since been closed but still there for the reading if one chose to search... Long story short, Phil is making a run of 100 razors with the only change being the design of the handle which still hasn't been released yet. I saw this morning that the first presale happened for I believe was 25 razors with another release of 25 in a few weeks and the balance of 50 a few weeks after that... I really hope Phil is successful with this razor and ends up flooding the market with them just to try and recoup a small portion of what Andy still owes him after all this time!!

As for Andy, I would doubt that he'll be designing and releasing anything in the near future because of what transpired. He had a deal with Grooming Dept that was about to go to production that went belly up at the time also!! Is it a shame that this all transpired, yes, but it exposed a dishonest person in the process and this industry doesn't need anymore of those as there are already too many!!
 
I saw that Andy was a lawyer and that raised flags for me. Well thanks for the info I was searching for more info on this debacle. Well I am signed up for the e-mail update when more are in stock/presale. I feel better about purchasing one then if Phil got the short straw on the deal.
 
I tend to try and distance myself from the drama so I'll pass on seeking it out. Short of someone taking my money and not delivering the product, which I don't believe to be the case here, you should be fine. I'm good with not chasing conflicts. I mean if you think about it we can find an ethical reason to not purchase just about any item from any large company.

I'd recommend that if you want the razor then to buy it, if not then skip it.
 
I just wish Bullgoose wouldn't make this a limited run. It's his right, I know, but it just annoys me. Take pre-orders and at least meet initial demand, IMO.
 
Yeah, I agree with you 100 seems way too small of a run, but they will only go up in value (as long as they are not terrible) due to being so limited. It's a little ballsy to make a pre-order based on a plastic mock up though.
 
Hmm I see that now, but doesn't have a textured handle yet. Either way I am probably down for buying another razor
 
Aa far as I am concerned, once the razor is made, it hardly matters what kind of stainless steel it is made of where the shave feel is concerned. I have 316L and 303 and 304 razors and they do not feel any different where the steel itself is concerned. Admittedly I don't have a 17-4 razor but I don't think the mere fact it is made of 17-4 makes any difference in shaving performance.

In any event if 303 is heat treated to make it harder, and 17-4 is not hear treated to do so, then wouldn't the former be harder than the latter?

What may make a difference is corrosion resistance. 316L is undoubtedly better in this respect compared to e.g. 303.

On this paradigm vs bullgoose debacle, it is a matter between them and isn't really our business and it isn't very nice for all of us to be viewing all the dirty linen in public so to speak. If paradigm owed money to bullgoose then they are certainly wrong under the law and there are legal remedies available for that. Surely the 10k or so it must have taken to do this run of razors would be enough to pay a lawyer to take legal action?

However afaik one wrong doesnt entitle the other party to wrong the first party - and thus I do not see how a creditor copying the design of the razor of the debtor without the permission of the debtor is an acceptable way to get recourse for the debt.
 
I agree that ss shouldn't be a concern for shave quality, just perhaps dings/scratches/corrosion resistance.

I don't agree on the matter only being between them now that it's aired out. They tried to keep it between them, but there seems there was no good compromise with the wrong party being recouped their commitment investment. It's kind of muddy if paradigm let Asylum make this razor to avoid a lawsuit.

I also agree that 2 wrongs do not make a right. If that was the case then both parties here have the ability to take each other to court. I think that there must of been a agreement to let Asylum recoup there investment to make a version of paradigm's 17-4.

These days companies are taking stances, and the only voice you have to curb some of these choices that you don't agree with is through your wallet. I.e. gillette's commercial which made men seem like we were a bunch of cretins. The only way to stop these ideas is not paying money into something you don't agree with, and is the whole reason I started using de razors. (I have no qualms with old gillette razors just the new p&g made ones).
 
Last edited:
I agree that ss shouldn't be a concern for shave quality, just perhaps dings/scratches/corrosion resistance.

I don't agree on the matter only being between them now that it's aired out. They tried to keep it between them, but there seems there was no good compromise with the wrong party being recouped their commitment investment. It's kind of muddy if paradigm let Asylum make this razor to avoid a lawsuit.

I also agree that 2 wrongs do not make a right. If that was the case then both parties here have the ability to take each other to court. I think that there must of been a agreement to let Asylum recoup there investment to make a version of paradigm's 17-4.

These days companies are taking stances, and the only voice you have to curb some of these choices that you don't agree with is through your wallet. I.e. gillette's commercial which made men seem like we were a bunch of cretins. The only way to stop these ideas is not paying money into something you don't agree with, and is the whole reason I started using de razors. (I have no qualms with old gillette razors just the new p&g made ones).

From the email exchanges that were shared in the thread in question, it seems that the paradigm owner clearly stated his objection to his design being used. So that particular question seems settled in any event - there was no agreement for this run of razors by the owner of the design, and anyone who buys these razors should know that.

If two wrongs do not make a right, and we do not need to be lawyers to know this, then anyone who buys those razors knowing of the IP owner's non agreement becomes a party to what is being done...
 
Ah ok, well then I suppose your right. Shrug well looks like I'll wait for my wolfman hopefully they dont have any dirty laundry.
 
Ah ok, well then I suppose your right. Shrug well looks like I'll wait for my wolfman hopefully they dont have any dirty laundry.

Well according to the paradigm owner himself, the diamondback is his best ever razor and I have to say that good as the 2020 diamondback is, my wolfman wr2 1.05 has it comfortably beaten in every attribute where my face is concerned. So I do not think you are missing out anything waiting for a wolfman as dufour's reputation as among the best of the best is more than well deserved.
 
Last edited:
From the email exchanges that were shared in the thread in question, it seems that the paradigm owner clearly stated his objection to his design being used. So that particular question seems settled in any event - there was no agreement for this run of razors by the owner of the design, and anyone who buys these razors should know that.

If two wrongs do not make a right, and we do not need to be lawyers to know this, then anyone who buys those razors knowing of the IP owner's non agreement becomes a party to what is being done...
He wasn't happy about the design being used, but he also said that he wouldn't oppose it. I suspect he was hoping that the second wrong would make it all right.
 
He wasn't happy about the design being used, but he also said that he wouldn't oppose it. I suspect he was hoping that the second wrong would make it all right.

If you got that impression then perhaps I did not remember it rightly. But my recollection was rather that the paradigm owner was saying he did not agree but there was nothing he could do to stop the bulllgoose owner from doing so as he was cash strapped. If my memory is correct then that is quite different from giving his ok to that move.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom