Ask the Soapers

[Mama Bear]

ok.. this may be off the wall.. but Saint Sue has me thinking today.. and that is always a dangerous thing. There are quite a few soapers here.. all named Sue for some odd reason.. Wendy and Colleen both have the middle name of Sue.. but we are all soapers and artisans of many sorts and we might be able to answer questions that may arise regarding soap.. This should be open to all of us and be a give and take discussion..

If I am out of line, I profusely apologize...

 

[DSB]

I will post the first question: have any of the soapisans (soapologists?) attempted a triple milled tallow shaving soap for market? Why are the triple milled soaps primarily limited to the old European soap makers? I know some US based vendors (mytimebathandbody, e.g.) do tallow-based creams, but I have not come across an artisnal tallow triple milled soap. Is it too expensive or complicated? Does it require different equipment?

 

[RichGem]

Cool idea Sue(s). I'll be interested to see what develops here.

(btw, those soap rocks just look so awesomely cool)

 

[Mama Bear]

I will post the first question: have any of the soapisans (soapologists?) attempted a triple milled tallow shaving soap for market? Why are the triple milled soaps primarily limited to the old European soap makers? I know some US based vendors (mytimebathandbody, e.g.) do tallow-based creams, but I have not come across an artisnal tallow triple milled soap. Is it too expensive or complicated? Does it require different equipment?

ok.. the other Sue's better get here quick.. lol

Triple Milled Soaps are made using real soap.. and then are milled.. this was started in France and it is why they use the term French Milled. I am going to see if I can find a picture of a soap milling machine for you.. they are HUGE and really expensive. Triple milled would use 3 rollers. The soap is compressed and made harder during this process.. and also the glycerin is extracted for many reasons.. the glycerin gums up the rollers and glycerin is an expensive soap by product.

Triple milled soaps are harder.. last longer.. and usually lather up fantastically!!~ They can be made with any recipe.. tallow.. is just one of the many oils that can be used.... my personal opinion is that they are drying to the skin, but this might not be a good place for personal opinions..

Wow, you had to start off with a hard question..

ok.. off to find a picture of a milling machine... and hoping and praying one of the other soapers will jump in quick here!

Sue..

 

[Mama Bear]

pic of OLD soap milling machine.. still looking for something modern...

 

[sanuginz]

You seem to be business saavy. Could we see mama bear acquiring a soap milling machine in the not too distant future?

 

[Mama Bear]

You seem to be business saavy. Could we see mama bear acquiring a soap milling machine in the not too distant future?

LOL.. er.. no.

 

[krissy]

I will post the first question: have any of the soapisans (soapologists?) attempted a triple milled tallow shaving soap for market? Why are the triple milled soaps primarily limited to the old European soap makers? I know some US based vendors (mytimebathandbody, e.g.) do tallow-based creams, but I have not come across an artisnal tallow triple milled soap. Is it too expensive or complicated? Does it require different equipment?

Well I am not part of all the Sue's group but I am a soapmaker making shaving soap from scratch using the old fashioned method (lye and oils) and I am currently working on a tallow based shaving soap with over 50% tallow for all you tallow loving gents. It is not triple milled because for that you would need large and expensive machines with rollers among other parts. Which would add a huge expense to the soap maker one few could afford unless they were a very large operation. Which would put you into the commercial level of selling.

I just sent out a whole bunch of new samples to many of my testers using the new (tallow based) recipes i came up with. Much of this is trial and error to see what is working and just how to formulate the recipe. And from the last batch that I made and tested myself I know i am on the right track. So hopefully soon I will be getting comments back on those for those that are interested.

 

[Mama Bear]

Well I am not part of all the Sue's group but I am a soapmaker making shaving soap from scratch using the old fashioned method (lye and oils) and I am currently working on a tallow based shaving soap with over 50% tallow for all you tallow loving gents. It is not triple milled because for that you would need large and expensive machines with rollers among other parts. Which would add a huge expense to the soap maker one few could afford unless they were a very large operation. Which would put you into the commercial level of selling.

I just sent out a whole bunch of new samples to many of my testers using the new (tallow based) recipes i came up with. Much of this is trial and error to see what is working and just how to formulate the recipe. And from the last batch that I made and tested myself I know i am on the right track. So hopefully soon I will be getting comments back on those for those that are interested.

Krissy, it's nice to meet you! Someone new!

This is hopefully going to be a thread that gives answers to questions, share knowledge and learn as opposed to promoting our products. I really want to find a way to answer questions here? Or am I off base? This is a real shot in the dark.. again.. I hope I am not out of line..

Bear Hugs, Sue

 

[Mama Bear]

OK.. stole this pic off the web also.. interestingly enough.. this manufacturer also offers a 4 roll mill!

 

[krissy]

Krissy, it's nice to meet you! Someone new!

This is hopefully going to be a thread that gives answers to questions, share knowledge and learn as opposed to promoting our products. I really want to find a way to answer questions here? Or am I off base? This is a real shot in the dark.. again.. I hope I am not out of line..

Bear Hugs, Sue

Actually I think it's a brilliant idea. (hope the mods agree) There are many soaps out there and types that are made. Not just the handmade ones but also the commercial made ones. And many question can be answered by those who know about the ingredients used. And what a great thought to have them put into one thread. That way someone can go search one thread instead of trying to find which one has the right info in it.

*bear hugs back*
krissy

 

[Mama Bear]

which brings up a lot of good points.. there are strong differences between commercially made soaps and beauty bars and homemade soaps, of animal or vegetal origin.. as well as the inbetweens such as hand milled soaps.

There are questions regarding fragrance also.. be it synthetic fragrance oil or natural essential oils.

There are a number of us here.. and we all have our strengths and weaknesses.. for instance.. I wish I could make shaving cream like Saint Sue.. sigh.. but between the lot of us and there are almost a dozen of us I believe.. (yes I am counting you Soapbox! lol ) there is much knowledge to be shared.

 

[Mama Bear]

Krissy, maybe you can add to the information on triple milled soaps?

bear Hugs!!!!!!!

 

[bythbook]

Here's a question for the soapers - how do you scent your soap? I know that you have some soaps that "simulate" the scents of various colognes/edts - how do you go about doing that? do you buy a gallon of GIT and dump it in a batch of soap?

I'm interested because of the earlier discussion re C&S #88 - I'd love to try some of Mama's or SCS (or Kris's!) #88...!

(Incidentally, I think I might have LOTS of questions...!)


.

 

[Mama Bear]

Here's a question for the soapers - how do you scent your soap? I know that you have some soaps that "simulate" the scents of various colognes/edts - how do you go about doing that? do you buy a gallon of GIT and dump it in a batch of soap?

I'm interested because of the earlier discussion re C&S #88 - I'd love to try some of Mama's or SCS (or Kris's!) #88...!

(Incidentally, I think I might have LOTS of questions...!)


.

Oh if Kris has a dupe for C&S #88 she will make a fortune with that fragrance!!!! Aqua Velva would be another one!

This gets kinda of technical.. and I am going to go into the fragrance (synthetic oils) down the road, hopefully with the help of the other soapers as this is an education in itself and a great question.

Essential oils are derived from natures plants.. they are brought in bulk and the essence is removed by methods such as steam distillation or cold compression (think citrus) and many more ways.. the other soapers here can add to this. These are VERY expensive oils.. Frankincense and Myrrh were most prized 2000 years ago.. and are prized as much in these days.

Synthetics.. sigh.. wow.. a topic in itself. The nose has all sorts of scent receptors. and there is a machine now that can scientifically say what the scent that our noses smell actually are in a minute form. This has given way to synthetic versions of oils that would normally be highly expensive to make.. or impossible to reproduce such as lily of the valley, which essence cannot be claimed naturally.

There is a fantastic novel on this subject.. natural essences.. that was made into a movie called Perfume. let me see if I can get more info on this.. and hopefully other soapers will join in.. this is a good discussion!

Syn

 

[Mama Bear]

Perfume the book.. The Story of a Murderer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume_(novel)

This book seriously gave me the willies.. and it was made into a movie!!!

http://www.perfumemovie.com/

 

[BlackDog]

I too am a soap maker as well.

Regarding French Milled Soap.

From the Book "A Practical Treatise on the manufacture and candles"
by William T Brant 1888

French system of making toilet-soaps or milled-soaps.—These are the best and finest toilet-soaps, hence it is of great importance that the so-called stock-soaps used in their preparation should be made from fresh and pure materials and contain no incompletely saponified fats, which would exert an injurious effect upon their durability. They must, therefore, be carefully saponified, salted out, boiled clear, and ground, which will be briefly described further on. Stock-soaps, if allowed to remain too long in blocks after being taken from the frames, readily turn rancid; hence they should be cut into bars as soon as possible, and these dried in the air or the drying-room.
The first operation is to "strip" the stock-soap, i. c., to cut it up into strips or shavings. This may be done either by hand, which is rather a primitive way, though suitable and economical for small lots of soap, or by a machine called a chipper or stripper.
The tools required for working by hand consist of an ordinary carpenter-s plane and a good marble mortar and pock-wood pestle. Each end of the plane should be provided with a contrivance, so that when placed over the mortar it remains firm and is not easily moved by the parallel pressure of the soap against the projecting blade.
The operation commences by weighing off determined quantities of the soap that is to be cut up and perfumed. The plane is then laid upside down across the mortar and the bar of soap pushed across the plane until it is reduced lo fine shavings. Soap as generally received from the soap-maker is in proper condition for thus working; but if it has been in stock any time it is apt to become too hard, and after having been converted into shavings must be sprinkled with some distilled water and allowed to stand 15 to 24 hours to give the shavings time to absorb the water before the perfume is added.
After determining the size the cakes of soap are to be, what they are to sell for, and what they are to cost, the maker can measure out his perfume.
The soap being in proper condition in regard to moisture, etc., is now to have the perfume well stirred into it. This is done by working it thoroughly with the pestle for a few hours, when the soap is generally expected to be free from streaks and of uniform consistency.
The soap thus perfumed is then weighed out in quantities as required for the tablets and molded by the hand into egg-shaped masses, which are laid separately in rows on a sheet of white paper, and allowed to dry for a day or two to fit them for the press. It is usual before placing the cakes in the press to dust

Soap-Stripper or Clipper,
them over with a little starch-powder, or very slightly to oil the mould, to prevent the soap from adhering to the letters or embossed work of the mould.
For the preparation of large quantities of toilet-soap it is more convenient and economical to use machinery.
The stock-soap is cut into shavings by a machine called a " stripper" and driven either by hand or power.
There are four or five different kinds of this machine, though the essential parts of all of them are one or two revolving disks provided with four to six knives and a hopper to contain the bars. shows such a machine with two disks. Opposite the disks is a hopper or cylinder in which the bars of stork-soap to be stripped are placed. By pressing the bars against the disks, they are cut into shavings which fall through slits in the disks into a receptacle.
Fig. 8'2 is a power-chipper manufactured by Alfred Houchin, of Brooklyn, N. Y. The soap is cut into bars six inches square and, fed into the hopper and the disk, which is a revolving plane, converts it into shavings. The machine can also be arranged for
foot-power by taking off the pulleys and placing a fly-wheel in their place, which is connected to a treadle working the same as a foot-lathe or grindstone.
The latest and most improved machine for this purpose is the automatic soap-chipper manufactured by Messrs. Rutsohmaii Bros., of Philadelphia. This chipper or stripper, Fig. 83, works with great rapidity, and is also adapted for laundry and other purposes. The plate has six knives, which can be regulated to cut the shavings of any thinness and can be cleaned with ease.
Fig. 83.

Rutschman's Automatic Soap-Chipper.
In working it is only necessary to lay the bars in the trough leading to the knives, as the machine feeds the soap against the knives automatically.
After stripping the soap, the shavings are frequently dried somewhat and are then brought into a wooden box lined with zinc or lead. The proper proportions of volatile oils and coloring matter (except when the soap is required to be white) are
First mixed in a separate vessel with a little alcohol, and the mixture is then added gradually to the shavings with constant stirring. The shavings are then conveyed to the
Soap-mill to be blended into a thick homogenous paste. The mill is similar in construction to a cocoa-mill, and consists essentially of three or four contiguous rollers by whose action the
Fig. 84.

shavings, color, and perfume are intimately united. The size of the mill, and, whether it is to be worked by hand or steam, depends on the size of the establishment. Fig. 84 shows a mill with three rolls to be worked by hand. The rolls are of best synthetic granite finely polished. The perfumed and colored shavings are brought into the hopper, and after passing through between the first two rolls fall upon the third. A scraper pressing against the third roll scrapes off the soap which falls into a receptacle. The milled mass must be returned to the hopper and again passed through the rolls until it is perfectly homogenous.
With a machine with four rolls, Fig. 85, this repeated passing of the milled mass through the rolls is not required, since the operation is effected by the fourth roll. Besides, in large factories where the work is carried on continuously, two or three machines may be placed alongside each other and the thorough mixing of the mass effected by passing it successively through the machines. The soap-mill manufactured by Rutschman Bros., of Philadelphia, and shown in Fig. 88, is constructed upon entirely new patterns and principles. The bed is of box-section extending to the ground and on an incline, and with long bearings for the stone rollers, which are made from the best Quiiiey granite, a material well adapted for the purpose on account of its hardness; the surface finishing true and smooth, yet porous, so as to grind the soap quickly and perfectly. The shafts, which extend entirely through the rollers, are of steel and very heavy, so as to insure against all possibility of springing, and are fastened in the stone rollers with a special device which renders it impossible for them to become loose on the stone. The gearing and all the
Fig. 86.

 

[Mama Bear]

another great book... http://www.amazon.com/Emperor-Scent-Perfume-Obsession-Mystery/dp/0375507973

 

[Mama Bear]

I too am a soap maker as well.

Regarding French Milled Soap.

From the Book "A Practical Treatise on the manufacture and candles"
by William T Brant 1888.

WOW! Great Stuff! Thank you!

where are the rest of us soapers/artisans?

 

[Mama Bear]

I too am a soap maker as well.

6.

Can you put the pictures in here (figures) so that we can see?

Thanks so much Black Dog!