Arkie Collection: Lot's of pics so take a look

[Alum of Potash]

Pinnacle is the brand name put on Woodcraft's arkies, but the box and instructions inside are identical to Dan's.

I assume that this refers to the current production. If so, then we know what that means. As I recall, Natural Whetstones pamphlets are similar as well.

It certainly won't hurt your blades. I'd worry about it possibly allowing bacterial growth, but I could be wrong there. I just assume rancid fats have that risk. Anyway on the stones, yeah it doesn't matter as long as you clean it off. Olive oil does go rancid far, far, far, far, faster than sperm oil. In fact I think sperm oils stability after boiling was one reason why it was so popular. It's not that olive oil is so bad you can't use it. Just that mineral oil seems better and isn't any more expensive, so I'd go with it.

Fair enough, but who knows what kind of bacteria I'm transferring to a strop when I rub it with my palm prior to stropping. After shaving, I dip the blade in a solution of 1 pt. mineral oil to 4 pts. denatured alcohol. Prior to stropping, I wipe the blade off with a bar towel then spritz it off with isopropyl alcohol. My guess is that the bacteria is coming from my hand.

 

[Wid]

This thread is making me want another translucent stone, thanks fellas

 

[David]

Same here. Thinking of pulling the trigger on an 8x2 from dans tomorrow. They're more expensive than I thought.

 

[SliceOfLife]

The days when you could get a 12x3 under $150 are sadly over.

 

[oakeshott]

Same here. Thinking of pulling the trigger on an 8x2 from dans tomorrow. They're more expensive than I thought.

You don't really need all that real estate. My first one was a 4x2 and the other ones that get the most use are 6x2. You just have to up the time you spend on them which I don't mind doing. I find finishing on an arkie relaxing.

Also, look on the 'bay. It's tricky, but just this weekend a nice vintage translucent went for about 30 bucks shipped. I came close to bidding on it, but do I really need another arkie finisher? I think it was 6x2 but it might have been smaller.

Also, try a wtb. May very well be some guys who are sitting on stones they're not using.

 

[life2short1971]

I find on naturals there is usually a spot on them I like best so even on an 8x3 i may finish on a 1x3 spot wasting all the rest of that space. Big stones are nice for grunt work though.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

The enabling force is strong with this one.

So, hypothetical question, how would one get ones hands on some of those primitive stones over here in Europe?

 

[newbilong]

Great thread.

 

[oakeshott]

I find on naturals there is usually a spot on them I like best so even on an 8x3 i may finish on a 1x3 spot wasting all the rest of that space. Big stones are nice for grunt work though.

Scott's post reminds me of another consideration: a big stone means much more work smoothing out even a lapped stone. I wouldn't wish that on any newcomer to arkies. Good men have gone missing getting an arkie Hone Worthy.

The enabling force is strong with this one.

So, hypothetical question, how would one get ones hands on some of those primitive stones over here in Europe?

Won't Dan's ship to Belgium?

 

[life2short1971]

I have always thought this was a Washita but truthfully I have no idea. Its 8x2 and I have finally lapped it after a couple years and several lapping sessions. Its pretty hard actually and semi translucent. You can see light through all the edges.

 

[oakeshott]

Instructions from Woodcraft arkie.

 

[BakerAndBadger]

Won't Dan's ship to Belgium?

I'm scared to ask them as they'll probably say YES!!!

 

[Wid]

Black and surgical black, they are one in the same? How much more does a translucent take and edge compared to a black?

 

[astripp]

It depends on the individual stone, but in general the SB and translucent are of equal density and have the same polishing ability.

 

[oakeshott]

Black and surgical black, they are one in the same? How much more does a translucent take and edge compared to a black?

It depends on the individual stone, but in general the SB and translucent are of equal density and have the same polishing ability.

This is my limited experience also, but there are people who disagree and the current trend, and it is a current one, is toward black arkansas over translucent. Several things to note here:

Dan's Whetstones doesn't recognize a category of "surgical black". Not a term they use. It's now a colloquialism dating back to the time when the black arkies were used by Dentists and Surgeons to sharpen their instruments. Now, all one sees is "black arkansas" with no distinction between that and a "surgical black". I have one stone, currently on loan, that is a jet black; darker than any of the other SB's that I own. It seems from the pictures I've come across that this was the ideal color for surgical instruments, but clearly by the 70's this was not the case as many of the SB's I've seen were really gray. The early Nortons, like the ones you see in my pics above, were much darker than the SB's that came later, but were only referred to as "Hard Arkansas". It's too late to say "in short", so I'll just say that these terms are not scientific, but marketing terms and therefore infinitely elastic.

According to the academic literature, translucent arkies range from white to black with multiple colors in-between. I can find no other reference, yet,by geologists or other academics that the colors mean anything in terms of composition of the stone and since it's over 99% Novaculite, the remaining percentage of other elements, and there are several, is quite small. One shouldn't assume that means they are insignificant, however, since a .25% increase in carbon added to iron causes dramatic changes in the characteristics of the base metal. It only means that their effect is, as far as I can tell, unknown by the cats who should know.

Again, according to my reading, the most prized of the stones were the translucent white arkies. This changed around the 50's or 60's it appears. One can speculate that it happened as the supplies of the previously available white stones disappeared or there may be something else at work. Lots of white vintage Nortons show up, so it may have been a response by the independent distributors to a dominant position by Norton. One can easily imagine them making this argument since any difference between the two is difficult to ascertain.

I recently read a surprising bit on the absorbency of translucent arkies. While not terribly absorbent, they can take in water and in the mining and handling of these stones, that is taken into account. I only bring this up because it impacts the color question (bandied about earlier in this thread). It may be that minute amounts of oil over a very long time do get absorbed and then the oil gives the previously white arkie a buttery appearance. I'm doubtful of this, but it may be true and I'm not cutting my favorite arkie in half to find out.

Finally, it's worth repeating, and repeating again if necessary, that these stones change with use. A well used translucent arkie, regardless of color, is almost certainly going to refine an edge more than one that's received little use. One of the things Alum of Potash reported is that even with the softer stones like a Washita, their sharpening characteristics change with usage also and one needs to lap them to get them to cut more aggressively.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Scott, yes that's a Washita. They do occasionally get a few mm worth of translucency.


Rick, according to Halls (one of the mines), Surgical black is NOT just black hard arkansas. They note that cutting translucents and surgical blacks takes hours, which is not the case for your standard Hard Arkansas. When pressed for the differences between a surgical black and a black that leads to their grading something surgical, they basically said that it's IMMEDIATELY apparent that you've got a surgical black when you try to cut it.

One of the things Alum of Potash reported is that even with the softer stones like a Washita, their sharpening characteristics change with usage also and one needs to lap them to get them to cut more aggressively.

This is less true in other applications than ours, however. A large part of why Washita's were popular was because unlike soft arks, they were friable enough to wear away under heavy use, keeping them cutting fast without resurfacing. It's doubtful this trait of theirs comes into play with razors, but there you have it.

 

[life2short1971]

Thanks Ian

 

[PapaFish]

I've been meaning to post this for a while, and finally got around to pulling out all my arkies and taking a few pics. I don't use mine as much as Papa Fish or Alum of Potash, but I think I have almost as much love for them as they do.

I ordered one in each flavor, translucent and black, and waited.

And waited.
And waited.

Now, to be fair to Dan's, the stones had to be found, cut to the right size and then lapped. From first inquiry to arrival was somewhere around 4-6 weeks and in retrospect it was probably a bespoke cutting of the stone.

...take a look at what Papa Fish and Alum have to say on these matters. They're very knowledgeable and dedicated to using Arkies more extensively than I am.

First off, beautiful stones! I really appreciate the tip on the Primitive Stones that Dan's offers. I see one in my future, though it may be a semi-distant future .

Secondly, I think I'm being given more credit than I deserve on the matter! It's true, I do love Arkansas Hones, and I have read up on them a quite a bit, but I have only owned a few.

The first I got, a Lily White Washita, was part of a group of "oil stones". It wasn’t sold as a Lily White, it was just sold as a 7”x2” Medium Oil Stone. I purchased it to help with bevel setting, but I’ve found that it’s capable of a lot more refinement than that.

The next Arkansas Stones I got were a “custom order” (sizes not offered on the website) from Natural Whetstones. David worked with me via email, giving me a couple quotes on some different size stones. I opted to go with a full set of “custom size” stones, 12”x3”x1”, Soft, Hard, Black, and Translucent Black. It seemed like it took forever to get the stones, but in reality it was 11 days from the time I placed the order to the time the stones arrived at my front door (and this included David making custom hardwood boxes for the stones. The quality on these stones is excellent. The Hard is exceptionally white, the Black is very black and uniform, and the Translucent Black is very uniform in color and free of any fissures (except for one tiny one on the very end. From the pictures I have seen of Dan’s Whetstones and Natural Whetstones, it seems that Natural Whetstones has a more pure/color-consistent vein (they cost less, too). On a countering note, Dan’s stones come flat, which could save you countless hours of lapping.

The stones from Natural Whetstones seem to come flat and fairly smooth, but they are not. None of the stones I got were either flat or smooth. None can be used on a razor as they came, even the Translucent Black just beat the snot out of a shave ready edge (I attribute this 100% to surface finish). I have been working on flattening the stones using SiC powder on worn out w/d sandpaper on a polished marble tile. The worn out w/d does a good job of both protecting the base stone and holding up to the abuse that the SiC gives it. I get several hours and several flattening sessions out of a sheet before it gives out. I currently have the major side of my Translucent Black flat, with the exception of maybe a 3/4” x 1/2” corner. This corresponds to over 99% of the surface. I have considered calling it done numerous times, but I know I will never come back and fix it if I do. So although this 99+%/200 grit surface has been used a lot, and although I have shaved off the edge it provides, I can’t honestly say that it’s ready for finishing razors. I’ve lost track of how much time I’ve spent on lapping this stone, but I know it’s over 30 hours. I think a lot about what I could do to speed thing up (like I said, I have spent a lot of time flattening this stone), and I have a couple ideas I may be trying out at some point in the future.

As was stated, flattening is only the first step. From there, expect hours of smoothing the stone through use. I purchased additional grits, 600 grit SiC, 5 micron AlO, and 1 micron AlO. I am hoping that using these on the Translucent Black will help speed the smoothing process.

If you read a bunch of threads on Arkansas Stones you will get a feeling for how hard/tough they are. People lament if they come even a little out of flat, or if they are scratched up. I remember a guy with a 3”x1” stone that had some scratching on the surface. He loved the stone and used it, but to him, it wasn’t worth it to put in the effort to remove the scratches. To me that says a lot, since he also said that although they didn’t impact honing, they bothered him every time he used it.

It’s difficult to find other stones that require this level of effort to flatten and get up and running. Even hard JNats and CNats aren’t close (based on my reading). I look at it as more of a right-of-passage rather than looking at it negatively.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've tried a LOT of ways to flatten arks. There is no fast way that I like. If I HAD to do it, I'd go with wet dry to at least 2k ansi.

The BEST way by far is to use it to sharpen my knives for a few months.

And the hardest ark I ever had to flatten was soft as mud compared to the dished frictionite I had to fix. That stone was hell to flatten. Everything else is easy by comparison, arks included. I will lap a hundred trans arks before I lap another frictionite.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Instructions from Woodcraft arkie.

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Might be interesting to shine a light on the side of that stone to see if you can pick up any translucency. Since they are mentioning a Hall's "Carbo-Ark," maybe this stone was sourced from Hall's as well?

I believe the "self-masking" property that I mentioned elsewhere was in reference to a lily white Washita.

I've mentioned this before, but I had the same frustrations with lapping a Natural Whetstones translucent black that PapaFish did. But then I tried 120x, 240x, 320x silicon carbide powder and water on a granite slab and this did the trick where all else failed. Subsequent w/d sandpaper up to 2000x went very easily and quickly.