Are all coticules good?

[TimS]

I've read debates regarding whether all coticules can be used for razors; i.e. some believe that not every coticule can put an acceptable finish on a straight razor. I also hear that people buy/sell coticules until they find one that works for them, seemingly supporting this argument.

I know that one-stone honing requires lots of practice. I don't have much experience at this point, but I can only get barely-acceptable shaves out of my coticule (a vintage glued combo). I'm going to continue to plug away at it, and hopefully finally nail the right combinations of slurry dilutions, pressure, laps, etc. to get the elusive edge I'm looking for (I have a couple of razors with coticule edges put on them by others, and my shaves come nowhere near these reference razors). However, I don't want to (continue to) bang my head against the wall if there's a possibility that not every coticule can put a really nice edge on a blade.

So, those of you with a lot of coticule experience, and especially those who have owned (or own) many coticules, has every coticule you've worked with given you a satisfactory edge once you've 'mastered' it? If the answer is yes, I'll continue until I get it right. If the overwhelming answer is no, then maybe I need to get my stone evaluated by someone who knows what they're talking about.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MilkyLee]

Can you post photos of your coticule? I've owned quite a few coticules and have only had one that produced an edge I didn't like and it was a modern La Grise. Of the stones I have owned a few of them were vintage glued combos and they all produced great shaving edges. It might also help if described what kind of method you are using on your coti. If it were me and I couldn't get a good edge off it this is what I would do:

Coti with medium slurry and dilute to plain water. Once to plain water rinse the stone and razor and move to the BBW side.
BBW side with heavy slurry and dilute to plain water. I dilute faster on BBW than with the coti side. Most people won't approve of this but I stay on BBW with plain water rinsing the stone after every ten x-strokes until the bevel is almost mirrored, then back over to the coti side to finish up. Rinse the stone and razor. Sometimes I will even shave off of the BBW edge.
Coti side plain water 100 x-strokes, rinsing the stone after every 10 x-strokes.

Using this technique I've always been able to get a great edge on any steel. Honestly this is the only way I hone on my coticule anymore, and why I will only buy combo cotis. Hopefully this helps some.

 

[gary haywood]

Bart always told me to do unicot method? to test if the coticule is worty finisher. If you do unicot with your coticule and the shave is smooth there is maybe your answer to how well your stone finishers with water? I have owned lots of coticules ... I've had my ups and downs with them .. the ones I struggled with oftenprooved me wrong..... I do and have had my favourites.. In all onestly I have struggled with some and they have been la grise I realy may succed on one somtime ...A coticule edge realy in my opinion does feel just how it is they all when maxed out to me feel very much alike ...there is a posability not all coticules are as easy to use not as fine as another one I realy wouldn't like to say . there a natural stone so they must be different? have you got a picture of yours. pitty some one here isn't close by to have one to one with you and your coticule

 

[gary haywood]

Can you post photos of your coticule? I've owned quite a few coticules and have only had one that produced an edge I didn't like and it was a modern La Grise. Of the stones I have owned a few of them were vintage glued combos and they all produced great shaving edges. It might also help if described what kind of method you are using on your coti. If it were me and I couldn't get a good edge off it this is what I would do:

Coti with medium slurry and dilute to plain water. Once to plain water rinse the stone and razor and move to the BBW side.
BBW side with heavy slurry and dilute to plain water. I dilute faster on BBW than with the coti side. Most people won't approve of this but I stay on BBW with plain water rinsing the stone after every ten x-strokes until the bevel is almost mirrored, then back over to the coti side to finish up. Rinse the stone and razor. Sometimes I will even shave off of the BBW edge.
Coti side plain water 100 x-strokes, rinsing the stone after every 10 x-strokes.

Using this technique I've always been able to get a great edge on any steel. Honestly this is the only way I hone on my coticule anymore, and why I will only buy combo cotis. Hopefully this helps some.

I don't disagree its well worth a shot.

gary

 

[jpcwon]

I am someone who's gone through more than a few coticules as I searched for ones that I liked. Some were fast, some slow, but I do believe that most if not all coticules are suitable for razors in the end. Whether or not they're easy to get a good shaving edge off of is different for each stone. I agree with MilkyLee and Gary that the modern La Grises seem to be a tad more difficult to use for whatever reason (Just my opinion). I have owned 4 La Grises and have sold all of them as I prefer something with a little more speed & not quite as soft. Not saying that there aren't harder/faster La Grises out there; it's just that the ones I've owned seemed to be soft & slow...which is not necessarily a bad thing in the right hands!!

I now have 3 La Dressantes (my favorite vein) that I love, as well as 2 vintage combos. All have decent speed & are very fine.....I personally find that I'm able to get a shave ready edge a little easier with a stone that has some speed to it....YMMV though....Some prefer slower stones...it really is up to the individual....

I say keep plugging away at it....coticules are like little puzzles that have to be figured out...I'm sure you'll succeed in the end!!

 

[Obiwan]

I own my fair share of coticules and have tested several for members in the past. IME, every one has been able to achieve a shave worthy edge. That said, some of them are far and above better than others in results and some are certainly easier to "maximize" than others. The biggest thing is investing the time in learning that particular stone and how to get the most out of it.

Also, don't be shy. There are many tenured coticule users on this board that would likely be willing to test your stone for you if you'd like. (***I am by no means the end all of coticule pros, but I'm glad to test it for you if you'd like)

 

[TimS]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the pointers. I probably can't get a photo up or try out any technique changes until tomorrow (working late), but will as soon as I can.

I've tried dulicot a bunch of times, and unicot once. Unicot got me a shaveable edge, but not near the expert edges. Dulicot at this point is about the same as my unicot edge, so I'm getting somewhere. I just hope there's much more potential for a great edge.

Another question: since I don't have a combo slurry stone, should I form the slurry on the BBW with my small diamond plate, or with the coticule side of my slurry stone?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Obiwan]

Try both, but either should work IME.

 

[Brooksie967]

I'll be honest and tell you that I don't think coticules are particularly good finishers at all. They are GREAT, in fact exceptional for mid-range work when working towards a thuringian/escher or jnat finish.

 

[MilkyLee]

I would use the diamond plate to raise the slurry on the bbw.

 

[Steve56]

Have to agree with Brooksie based on my one La Dressante coticule and a lot of reading. It's a great stone and if I could only have one, the coticule may very well be it. It will hone a dull axe if you're patient, and to a darn sharp edge I might add. And I can shave with it fairly decently. But it isn't in my experience, a top flight finisher, though I'm sure there are better ones than mine. And Jarrod at SS says he ships HHT 3-4 blades off a coticule.

I do understand that honing technique is everything, but if the garnets are 8k-ish, that's kind of a natural limit.

cheers, Steve

 

[Chaloney]

I'm surprised no one else has asked this but are you certain the stone is flat?

 

[Gamma]

Can't speak for anyone else, but here in my house - my Coticules absolutely do make great finishers.

 

[Brianskeet]

Hello, my name is Brian and I am addicted to coticule hones. I think I am in the neighborhood of a dozen hones now. Various veins and sizes. I do have a couple hones that I have relegated to knife use only, but the vast majority of coticule hones will produce a fine shaving edge. The couple I have that won't produce for me probably have more to do with me than the stone.

 

[gary haywood]

Tim i take it you have a couple of razors honed by other coticule users and your very happy with the way they feel and shave ?? now your not matching those results your wondering if your stone is not suitable for razor s.. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.... you need to keep trying unicot once isn't enough, you also need for sure linen strop before leather it makes a big difference with coticules for some reason.... my la vainette leaves a smooth edge smooth no different to an Escher and i tried four of them and no smoother than my j nat .....j nats are just easier to master as are eschers...they don't seem to slurry dull like coticules. coticules are slow to very slow with water ..So its difficult to bridge the keenness from slurry to water .. for that reason you will have to spend more time finishing stages . some coticules tend to slurry dull more than others .. try working on slurry only until you have a solid bevel and shave arm hair easily (keep slurry milky) then strop and shave ...there should be some resistants if there is loads then your stone slurry dulls a lot if its tiny then its not to bad , then work with pressure and half strokes on water only finish wit light x strokes a good 100 strop linen leather and test shave the other side of your face .. see if there is any difference . the razor should shave much better ..this will give you a indication of what water finishing is acatuly doing...chances are you may get a great shave with out dilutions.. If it still resist a little go back to lighter slurry and then water again , lighter than milk this time .... i practised every night for a very long time , so jst keep doing just that grab some gold dollars to practise on...

 

[Obiwan]

Can't speak for anyone else, but here in my house - my Coticules absolutely do make great finishers.

+1 here. There at some coticules that excel for sure, but IMO its all about figuring out how to squeeze out that last 3-5%. A well done coti edge is a very comfortable shave IMO.

 

[TimS]

I'll be honest and tell you that I don't think coticules are particularly good finishers at all. They are GREAT, in fact exceptional for mid-range work when working towards a thuringian/escher or jnat finish.

It's comments like this that caused me to initiate my original post; it appears for some people the coticule isn't the best for them, and I'm trying to figure out if it's the stone or not. The two 'professional' coticule edges I have give me remarkable shaves; I'm trying to get there with my rock if it's possible.

Regarding finishing, if I were to introduce a thuringian into the mix (after much more work on the coticule), at what point during the coticule honing is it used? After getting all the way to water on the coticule, or at a certain point in the slurry dilution? And once switching to the finisher, are you using slurry on the Escher, or straight water? And how many laps on the finisher?

 

[TimS]

There are many tenured coticule users on this board that would likely be willing to test your stone for you if you'd like. (***I am by no means the end all of coticule pros, but I'm glad to test it for you if you'd like)

Thanks for the offer, David. Sending my stone to you was already in my head, due to your geographic proximity and love for these rocks. I'll keep plugging at it, and if I can't make progress, I'll get in touch about this.

 

[TimS]

I'm surprised no one else has asked this but are you certain the stone is flat?

It is; I've lapped it a couple of times, and FWIW, the slurry stone is pretty hard to remove due to suction between the flat surfaces.

 

[TimS]

Photos, as requested (last one is wetted surfaces). I should have provided something to scale; the stone is about 1.5" x 6":