Anyone ever use this stuff? Lustro Italiano

[MG31]

I picked up a few lower-grit stones in an attempt at restoring some razors I acquired (see older post if interested in seeing them).

I just sealed my first Jnat (cashew lacquer), so I thought sealing these Naniwas might not be a bad idea.

My thought is to first seal them, then glue them to a marble or ceramic tile. I definitely don’t want to mess around with the cashew lacquer for these, so I picked up a “stone sealer”.

Anyone ever use this stuff? I haven’t found any relevant content after searching. What’s everyone’s take on sealing naniwas in general? I’m finding mixed views… I suspect I’ll find the same on this thread, but I’d love to hear some rational.

Side note/funny: I purchased a 12k from a member here in 2016, and it came glued to a glass tile. I thought I’d do the same for these, so I picked up 6 of them with the assumption I’d break a couple…

Well, I tried scoring + using a manual tile cutter, and using a Diamond tile cutting blade with an angle grinder + water… I broke all of them lol. Soooo I’m thinking marble now

 

[cotedupy]

You'd certainly be able to use that to seal stones, looks ideal. You can use almost anything tbh.

However, there really isn't a need to seal synths, they're designed not to need it. I especially wouldn't seal NP/Choseras which are specifically not meant to be soaked in water for any great length of time. If you seal one then it's just going to make the whole thing dry slower and less evenly after use.

 

[MG31]

You'd certainly be able to use that to seal stones, looks ideal. You can use almost anything tbh.

However, there really isn't a need to seal synths, they're designed not to need it. I especially wouldn't seal NP/Choseras which are specifically not meant to be soaked in water for any great length of time. If you seal one then it's just going to make the whole thing dry slower and less evenly after use.

Appreciate it! Yeah, it will surely take longer to dry, is that really a concern with splash-and-go/naniwa though? I honestly don’t know. Some have mentioned it could possibly cause a faster dilution of minerals in the stone, some say not.

I’m seeing that a lot of naniwas have been cracking or crumbling with recent production, that’s something I’d really like to avoid, especially with my Snow White.

I may have to do it in the name of science…

 

[Toro Blanco]

The best and easiest way to avoid crazing is to wrap the stone in a damp(not wet) kitchen towel and placed in a dark, cool, airy part of a room.

I have a snow white 8k that started crazing a little and after I started doing that I never crazed again.

 

[MG31]

The best and easiest way to avoid crazing is to wrap the stone in a damp(not wet) kitchen towel and placed in a dark, cool, airy part of a room.

I have a snow white 8k that started crazing a little and after I started doing that I never crazed again.

That’s interesting. This is done after use, correct? I’m assuming you let the towel dry? Or do you constantly keep it damp?

 

[Toro Blanco]

That’s interesting. This is done after use, correct? I’m assuming you let the towel dry? Or do you constantly keep it damp?

Yes after use.

Yes you let the towel dry normaly. It dries the stone slowly and evenly. Preventing the crazing from starting.

 

[cotedupy]

Yes after use.

Yes you let the towel dry normaly. It dries the stone slowly and evenly. Preventing the crazing from starting.

Is the SW the same Magnesia binder as the NPs...?

 

[Gamma]

Dunno, you have to be careful what you put on synths because a solvent based sealer can have a bad reaction with the binder. So it's not really an 'anything goes' scenario. I've melted the sides on a few stones trying to use different lacquers and enamels with different solvents.
I have had success with krylon clear on a few synths - just did the bottom of a Morihei actually. I did it to preserve the ink stamps, not so much to prevent water ingress. Not convinced sealing Nanis is good or bad, tbh... can't see sealing being a problem. Don't see not sealing it being a problem either. The problem with Nanis is that some won't stay flat, and they don't even need to get wet for them to warp. So sealing isn't a solution for that....Shapton seales the sides of some of their 12k stones, but just the sides. Not sure it actually does anything though. I've lapped it off and had no issues.

 

[MG31]

Dunno, you have to be careful what you put on synths because a solvent based sealer can have a bad reaction with the binder. So it's not really an 'anything goes' scenario. I've melted the sides on a few stones trying to use different lacquers and enamels with different solvents.
I have had success with krylon clear on a few synths - just did the bottom of a Morihei actually. I did it to preserve the ink stamps, not so much to prevent water ingress. Not convinced sealing Nanis is good or bad, tbh... can't see sealing being a problem. Don't see not sealing it being a problem either. The problem with Nanis is that some won't stay flat, and they don't even need to get wet for them to warp. So sealing isn't a solution for that....Shapton seales the sides of some of their 12k stones, but just the sides. Not sure it actually does anything though. I've lapped it off and had no issues.

You’re making sense. Attaching the stone to a tile or something + Toro Blanco’s method is probably best. I did some more digging and found this is actually how they are supposed to be stored (see bottom of link).

Sharpening stones FAQ

How whetstones are manufactured Japanese synthetic whetstones are manufactured by mixing the abrasive material, silicone carbide or alumina oxide, with a binding agent: magnesium based resin or cem…

hawatari.com

 

[Gamma]

I try to tell everyone to take internet info from retail websites gently - meaning, don't read something and believe it 100% right away.

Some of that info is flat out wrong.

For example, if a stone doesn't dry out, and than it is put it in a bag, it can/will grow mold. I speak from first hand experience here, not my imagination. Putting a stone away wet, even in a cardboard box, can cause mold to form. Structural damage can result also.

What I have found is that most stones dry better standing on their long sides. They should not be dried harshly, but rather more slowly. Temp extremes are not good. Repeatedly getting stones totally soaked and then totally dry and cycling that quickly/rapidly might not be good for the stones, the constant expansion/contraction can cause them to craze/crack. Just like a good brush, let it dry, rest, then cycle back into play. I have several stones of the 'same grit' at home for that reason. Sometimes, some stones do not show any ill effects from this, but sometimes some others do.
But put a stone away wet or damp - heck no.... nope.... never.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

This sub-forum ain’t big enough for two of us sealing our naniwas, partner.

This is the Falcon and Fuji so they may not be the exact same formulation as other Naniwas. These are splash and go and I’ve seen no ill effects from sealing them.

 

[MG31]

This sub-forum ain’t big enough for two of us sealing our naniwas, partner.

View attachment 1602193

This is the Falcon and Fuji so they may not be the exact same formulation as other Naniwas. These are splash and go and I’ve seen no ill effects from sealing them.

I’m your huckleberry….

I didn’t even realize those were sealed synthetics when you posted in my other thread! I feel like an idiot, you even have them labeled haha. You’re using varnish right?

 

[MG31]

I try to tell everyone to take internet info from retail websites gently - meaning, don't read something and believe it 100% right away.

Some of that info is flat out wrong.

For example, if a stone doesn't dry out, and than it is put it in a bag, it can/will grow mold. I speak from first hand experience here, not my imagination. Putting a stone away wet, even in a cardboard box, can cause mold to form. Structural damage can result also.

What I have found is that most stones dry better standing on their long sides. They should not be dried harshly, but rather more slowly. Temp extremes are not good. Repeatedly getting stones totally soaked and then totally dry and cycling that quickly/rapidly might not be good for the stones, the constant expansion/contraction can cause them to craze/crack. Just like a good brush, let it dry, rest, then cycle back into play. I have several stones of the 'same grit' at home for that reason. Sometimes, some stones do not show any ill effects from this, but sometimes some others do.
But put a stone away wet or damp - heck no.... nope.... never.

Valid concerns, I can see that happening using a dirty towel or storing it in an area already containing mold. I think if a bleached towel was used in a clean area, it wouldn’t be much of a concern, especially if used sparingly.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I’m your huckleberry….

I didn’t even realize those were sealed synthetics when you posted in my other thread! I feel like an idiot, you even have them labeled haha. You’re using varnish right?

I’m using Japanese lacquer. Very similar to cashew but in a spray can. I go through phases where I seal everything I can get my hands on.

 

[Gamma]

Valid concerns, I can see that happening using a dirty towel or storing it in an area already containing mold. I think if a bleached towel was used in a clean area, it wouldn’t be much of a concern, especially if used sparingly.

Fact, not concerns.
If there is water in a stone, it can be a vehicle for mold growth. Mold spores are in the air all around us, all the time, everywhere. Clean or dirty areas, the surrounding air will contain mold spores. Yes, it's true.

I've never heard of a single person subscribing to this sort of stone storage and I've been discussing stone use, storage, etc with pros, non pros, casual users, etc - all over the globe - for over 10 yr. A lot, and I do mean A LOT of people use permasoak. This can sorta wreck the binder in some stones but a lot of those guys just replace a mucked up stone the same way I buy new socks. No one I've ever talked to puts wet/damp stones in a sealed bag. Most don't seal their permasoak tubs either.
I've seen stones in a clean environment develop mold because they weren't 100% dry before storage. I've seen stones pulled from a chlorinated perma-soak get moldy through and through too.

Sure, bleach might be a mold deterrent to some extent. I would expect that to be localized, externally, but not effective internally. Bleach has a shelf life though, and it is shorter when diluted. In a permasoak scenario, the bleach has to be recharged, and the water flushed. Just like running a swimming pool. IIRC, the shelf life of diluted bleach is 24 hr. People run it longer but 24hr is the time frame when bleach diluted with water provides acceptable anti microbial/bacterial action.
Bleach is highly alkaline, and somewhat corrosive. It's not ideal, or good, for some binder types.

Ok, so lets say the stone is stored, damp, in a bag, with a bleach soaked cloth and the cloth/bleach thing is cycled continually to avoid the bleach going stale, etc.
Just wondering, what is the point?
All that is needed, required, and suggested by the manufacturer is to just dry the stone out.

Contact a whetstone mfgr - say Shapton, or Naniwa, any of them really - they'll tell you to dry whetstones, slowly, away from sunlight. The cases they sell their stones in are designed to do this.
These manufacturers will tell you to not store them wet or continually soak them. Well, some manufacturers will tell you permasoak is fine for a particular type of whetstone, but not every type, and only so long as the system is maintained correctly. It is not a set it and forget it type of thing.

If someone wants to store their stones wet/damp - that is up to them for sure. Anyone can do what they want with their property. But facts, basic science, and hands-on experience override marketing theory and imagination. Some of the stones we buy are big investments for a lot of us, gambling with them like this could have disastrous results. When a retail site says 'this is how people do it" I wonder who the people are, where they are, and why they do it.

To me, that webpage is straight up misinformation. It reminds of that retail website promoting only using distilled water on Jnats because it was the only true pure water; and honing on pure water was obviously better.
That retailer 'thought' they were doing everyone a favor by sharing what they thought was true as facts. But it wasn't a fact at all, it was imaginary b/s.

For years gullible types bought into it until someone finally said - "hey - that's b/s". Even the guy that wrote it had to cop to that, they said it was 'silly'. I say it was irresponsible.
Fact was, using distilled water has no effect on anything, except it could have a negative effect on the stones.

 

[Herrenberg]

Fact was, using distilled water has no effect on anything, except it could have a negative effect on the stones.

Wouldn't be surprising. Distilled water is surprisingly nasty stuff, in some contexts.

 

[MG31]

Fact, not concerns.
If there is water in a stone, it can be a vehicle for mold growth. Mold spores are in the air all around us, all the time, everywhere. Clean or dirty areas, the surrounding air will contain mold spores. Yes, it's true.

I've never heard of a single person subscribing to this sort of stone storage and I've been discussing stone use, storage, etc with pros, non pros, casual users, etc - all over the globe - for over 10 yr. A lot, and I do mean A LOT of people use permasoak. This can sorta wreck the binder in some stones but a lot of those guys just replace a mucked up stone the same way I buy new socks. No one I've ever talked to puts wet/damp stones in a sealed bag. Most don't seal their permasoak tubs either.
I've seen stones in a clean environment develop mold because they weren't 100% dry before storage. I've seen stones pulled from a chlorinated perma-soak get moldy through and through too.

Sure, bleach might be a mold deterrent to some extent. I would expect that to be localized, externally, but not effective internally. Bleach has a shelf life though, and it is shorter when diluted. In a permasoak scenario, the bleach has to be recharged, and the water flushed. Just like running a swimming pool. IIRC, the shelf life of diluted bleach is 24 hr. People run it longer but 24hr is the time frame when bleach diluted with water provides acceptable anti microbial/bacterial action.
Bleach is highly alkaline, and somewhat corrosive. It's not ideal, or good, for some binder types.

Ok, so lets say the stone is stored, damp, in a bag, with a bleach soaked cloth and the cloth/bleach thing is cycled continually to avoid the bleach going stale, etc.
Just wondering, what is the point?
All that is needed, required, and suggested by the manufacturer is to just dry the stone out.

Contact a whetstone mfgr - say Shapton, or Naniwa, any of them really - they'll tell you to dry whetstones, slowly, away from sunlight. The cases they sell their stones in are designed to do this.
These manufacturers will tell you to not store them wet or continually soak them. Well, some manufacturers will tell you permasoak is fine for a particular type of whetstone, but not every type, and only so long as the system is maintained correctly. It is not a set it and forget it type of thing.

If someone wants to store their stones wet/damp - that is up to them for sure. Anyone can do what they want with their property. But facts, basic science, and hands-on experience override marketing theory and imagination. Some of the stones we buy are big investments for a lot of us, gambling with them like this could have disastrous results. When a retail site says 'this is how people do it" I wonder who the people are, where they are, and why they do it.

To me, that webpage is straight up misinformation. It reminds of that retail website promoting only using distilled water on Jnats because it was the only true pure water; and honing on pure water was obviously better.
That retailer 'thought' they were doing everyone a favor by sharing what they thought was true as facts. But it wasn't a fact at all, it was imaginary b/s.

For years gullible types bought into it until someone finally said - "hey - that's b/s". Even the guy that wrote it had to cop to that, they said it was 'silly'. I say it was irresponsible.
Fact was, using distilled water has no effect on anything, except it could have a negative effect on the stones.

Im not denying that it could lead to a problem, however, a member recommended that strategy in this thread (see post #4). I later found that website which aligned with his storage strategy. It clearly works for him.

If a stone was kept in a constantly damp towel I would be very concerned. However, if a stone was used let’s say 1x/6mo, and was wrapped in a (clean) damp towel that eventually dried, albeit slower, thats a whole different scenario.

Im not in a position to validate or disprove any strategy, the reason I posed my original question was to get advice from members with more experience. As such, I appreciate any feedback and thoroughly consider any strategy, including yours.

 

[Gamma]

This....

...is to wrap the stone in a damp(not wet) kitchen towel and placed in a dark, cool, airy part of a room

Is not this

.... wrap it in a towel. Then put the wrapped stone a sealed container for storage.

They are, quite obviously, two completely different things.

Personally, I wouldn't wrap a damp stone in a damp towel to dry a stone unless my RH was under 50%. Even then, I'd dry them in a decent size cardboard box that is partially covered. I have this issue when the ACs are running hard. It's like curing Urushi in a controlled environment. Most people don't need to ever do this though, it's not 'normal procedure' - it's an attempt to stop defective stones from disintegrating. When stones are not defective, sane people employ typical / normal drying procedures. Many people have owned Chosera stones without issues.

When I was still trying to keep my Chosera stones I tried everything under the sun to prevent cracking, including a similar wrap type of thing except I used paper towel. The curing box method didn't work either. The crazing and cracking continued, and those methods were not a deterrent. What I did notice with wrapping the stones, is that they were drying unevenly, more slowly where it was making contact with damper parts of the toweling. It's not ideal, I can see that causing issues in the long term. Even so, My 10k, 5k, 800x, 600x, 2k, and 400x Choseras never had crazing issues. Just the 1k & 3k. The rest were fine, they were all dried per manufacturer's info. The 1k and 3k didn't craze/crack because they weren't dried correctly, they were dried cautiously as always. They were defective stones, and that was the problem and storing them in a pyramid wouldn't stop it from continuing. Maybe slowing it down would have been possible but for me it was a deal breaker.

But, back to the towel thing, since the suggestion is to leave it out in an open airy spot, it probably won't be a factor in creating mold. Unlike putting that assembly into a sealed container, which is what I was pointing out as false info, repeatedly, above.

I've had a Snow White for over 10 years, never cracked - I dry it out away from drafts, sun, etc - on its side. That is what has worked for me. But i am pretty sure it won't work for everyone 100% of the time. The fact that it works for me is not empirical evidence, it's anecdotal.

 

[MG31]

This....

...is to wrap the stone in a damp(not wet) kitchen towel and placed in a dark, cool, airy part of a room

Is not this

.... wrap it in a towel. Then put the wrapped stone a sealed container for storage.

They are, quite obviously, two completely different things.

Personally, I wouldn't wrap a damp stone in a damp towel to dry a stone unless my RH was under 50%. Even then, I'd dry them in a decent size cardboard box that is partially covered. I have this issue when the ACs are running hard. It's like curing Urushi in a controlled environment. Most people don't need to ever do this though, it's not 'normal procedure' - it's an attempt to stop defective stones from disintegrating. When stones are not defective, sane people employ typical / normal drying procedures. Many people have owned Chosera stones without issues.

When I was still trying to keep my Chosera stones I tried everything under the sun to prevent cracking, including a similar wrap type of thing except I used paper towel. The curing box method didn't work either. The crazing and cracking continued, and those methods were not a deterrent. What I did notice with wrapping the stones, is that they were drying unevenly, more slowly where it was making contact with damper parts of the toweling. It's not ideal, I can see that causing issues in the long term. Even so, My 10k, 5k, 800x, 600x, 2k, and 400x Choseras never had crazing issues. Just the 1k & 3k. The rest were fine, they were all dried per manufacturer's info. The 1k and 3k didn't craze/crack because they weren't dried correctly, they were dried cautiously as always. They were defective stones, and that was the problem and storing them in a pyramid wouldn't stop it from continuing. Maybe slowing it down would have been possible but for me it was a deal breaker.

But, back to the towel thing, since the suggestion is to leave it out in an open airy spot, it probably won't be a factor in creating mold. Unlike putting that assembly into a sealed container, which is what I was pointing out as false info, repeatedly, above.

I've had a Snow White for over 10 years, never cracked - I dry it out away from drafts, sun, etc - on its side. That is what has worked for me. But i am pretty sure it won't work for everyone 100% of the time. The fact that it works for me is not empirical evidence, it's anecdotal.

I was simply referring to the part that coincides with wrapping in a towel -

“Just wipe off the water from it’s surface and wrap it in a towel.”

My reply didn’t intend to be interpreted as using the sealed container -

“You’re making sense. Attaching the stone to a tile or something + Toro Blanco’s method is probably best.”

There appears to be a misunderstanding on both our ends. My post didn’t make it clear, and I should have emphasized that a little better. I do appreciate all of your advice.

 

[Gamma]

You were very clear, and there was no misunderstanding on my end.