Another AR question regarding quality

[Kentos]

OK.

So after biting my lip and not buying into the feeding frenzy surrounding the AR platform, I feel as if things are finally calming down and stock is catching up.

From what I have been gleaning of the internets AR components are either Mil-spec, or not. Mil Spec would assure me it meets certain quality controls, non milspec could be better, or worse. I plan on target shooting with the thing, maybe competing locally, using it to poke holes in bad guys that come knocking, and caressing it gently. My budget is around 1500 max. At that price I can get a low to mid tier SW, RRA, Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc off the shelf. I could also get a BCM hammer forged barreled upper with BCG and charging handle, and put together a billet lower with basic internals, rear iron sights and a CTR stock for around 1300 maybe? I like to buy once cry once, and supposedly I would have a top shelf upper in the BCM.

So my big question is, is there a noticable difference between them all? For example, a BCM BCG is 220.00, a NiB from JoeBOB is 200, a non tested from PSA is 160.00. For a weekend warrior could Bushmaster be more than good enough?

I have to admit that I like a certain look as well, so call me a "poseur" but a BCM branded upper seems nicer intrinsically than a PSA one, though from 10 feet away they look identical.

Sorry for the disjointed post, but I have AR paralysis

 

[MrMurphy]

Shopping around, you can find a Colt for about $1k-1200. Colt is milspec, and is the standard by which all others are judged.

For your purposes, any of the major brands will likely work, especially if you know what to look for inspecting it.

I would avoid DPMS completely. RRA and Bushmaster can build good guns, but need a good once over to verify it was built correctly. S&Ws are not milspec guns but hold up well to hard use despite that, they are generally built right.
LaRue, Noveske, BCM, etc are 'better than milspec'. They're not meeting the standard because many of the components they use are actually better.

Shop wisely, and you'll be fine.

Mike Pannone's M4/M16 handbook and Kyle Lamb's Green Eyes Black Rifles should be bought and read thoroughly before you buy a rifle.

 

[cb91710]

Another good company that's not too high end is Daniel Defense.

 

[Kentos]

Thanks guys. I guess I can't go wrong with a DD/BCM/La Rue it seems. From reading the other thread the LaRue stealth upper looks nice too. The trouble is for another 300 you get this. Then another 300 you get that. Next thing I know my budget is 1800.00.

 

[MrMurphy]

Yes, DD slipped my mind, I had a bawling 3 month old at hand.

 

[Kentos]

Would there be any merit to splurging on the upper and cheaping out on the lower? Then save up piece by piece for a nice lower. How much does the lower contribute to accuracy assuming triggers are decent?

 

[LittleLebowski]

Would there be any merit to splurging on the upper and cheaping out on the lower? Then save up piece by piece for a nice lower. How much does the lower contribute to accuracy assuming triggers are decent?

Not at all other than trigger like you said. I'd recommend a PSA lower and an ALG QMS trigger. Crisp, very nice milspec trigger. http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3023

 

[dreadpirate]

For me, the trigger is a big deal. I would say try one out if possible before you buy. I like my Timney 3#; it's the way I like my trigger for sport shooting. A lot of folks like the RRA 2 stage NM. And some folks are happy with the standard 6.5# military trigger. I saw a vender at a gun show that had a lower receiver with various triggers to try.

I have read that other than fit and finish, the lower receiver is not as critical as the upper parts. Some are even made out of polymer instead of metal.

I have also read that the buffer spring can be a big deal if it is too weak; but I have no experience with multiple rifles and thousands of rounds to substantiate that claim.

Finally, there is the buttstock. Some people are really picky about having a nice cheek piece, etc. I'm fine with a standard A2 stock. Magpul has various models.

It all does add up.

 

[Kentos]

The 150.00 NFA complete lower looks like a good interim lower while I wait to find a Mega or Seekins lower. I just missed out on a few Mega billet at Ranier today.

 

[LittleLebowski]

Just build it up with a good LPK (Lower Parts Kit); say a BCM LPK and an ALG trigger. Choose your buffer based on your gas system/barrel length.

 

[cb91710]

I've been very happy with my basic $60 RRA LPKs.
Stay away from Stag. I've had more than one kit have issues that could cause trigger slap leading to a double cycle.

 

[dreadpirate]

Ahh - so the length of the gas tube determines how much force the BCG receives getting slammed back into the buffer. The shorter the tube, the greater the force. That's one reason I would rather have a 20" barrel.

Choose your buffer based on your gas system/barrel length.

 

[Kentos]

16" seems to be a popular length, but a longer barrel would equal more accuracy at the expense of weight, and I guess maneuverability in close quarter?(not that I would ever need it as I chose a handgun for home defense)

 

[cb91710]

Ahh - so the length of the gas tube determines how much force the BCG receives getting slammed back into the buffer. The shorter the tube, the greater the force. That's one reason I would rather have a 20" barrel.

I have a 14.5 with a mid-length gas system and standard "H" buffer. Brass ends up in a nice little pile at 4:00.
The 14.5 and 16 on the mid-length gas system are pretty gentle on the BCG.
The carbine gas system is really only appropriate for the 14.5, but it's still a bit "hot". The dwell time is comparable to a 20" with a rifle-length gas system, but the pressures are higher, which is why I got the mid-length in my 14.5.
Mid-length is very slightly overgassed on the 16"... and rifle-length gas systems are becoming more popular on 16" barrels (termed "dissipator"). People are realizing that slightly undergassed is better for semi-auto rifles.

 

[MrMurphy]

Barrel length is fairly irrelevant to actual accuracy, especially with an optic.

The single-hole bullseye fanatics with the 30lb rifles on lead sleds use short, stiff barrels.

Longer barrels with long sight radius helps with irons, not for anything else.

With an optic, a 12 or 16" gun can shoot minute of angle or better if it's built right.

To give you a frame of reference, the LaRue OBR 16" loaded with Federal GMM, with one hell of a shooter, shot under minute of angle at 1,200m. That's a 7.62mm carbine shooting around a 10.5" group at 1,200m or so.

16 is popular because it's the shortest legal length without SBR'ing it. For working around vehicles and heavy brush, indoors etc, the 16 is fine, and with an optic loses little to nothing in accuracy out past 300m. Even with a short (M4 length) sight radius using a 7" tube and fixed front sight, hitting steel at 250m+ isn't that hard with irons. With a longer tube and sight radius, a friend who at that point had shot ARs (ever) maybe six times, and his own twice, put his second round on target at 250m with irons and was getting about 50% hits off the bench. Since he was still figuring out irons and the target was small and hard to see.....he did pretty good for a fairly new shooter. This was a 16" Daniel Defense carbine with an 11" tube.

 

[LittleLebowski]

Just stick with 16" for the reasons already listed.

 

[Kentos]

16" BCM mid length on the truck enroute!

Thanks for all the info guys!

 

[dreadpirate]

I have a stripped lower with paperwork waiting and have been considering my options.

I am interested in a longer sight radius for using iron sights, so I am looking for a barrel with a "rifle length" gas tube; at least 11". If I can get 12 or 13, even better, and I would be willing to trade the handier shorter barrel, for a longer barrel with a longer sight radius.

Since he was still figuring out irons and the target was small and hard to see.....he did pretty good for a fairly new shooter. This was a 16" Daniel Defense carbine with an 11" tube.

 

[cb91710]

I have a stripped lower with paperwork waiting and have been considering my options.

I am interested in a longer sight radius for using iron sights, so I am looking for a barrel with a "rifle length" gas tube; at least 11". If I can get 12 or 13, even better, and I would be willing to trade the handier shorter barrel, for a longer barrel with a longer sight radius.

The world is your oyster.
You can get a "dissipator" 16" barrel with a rifle-length gas system, or you can run the (IMHO better) mid-length gas system on a 14.5 or 16" barrel.

But the gas system need not define your site radius. You can run a low profile gas block with a freefloat tube/rail and get the front site on a 16" barrel out to the same distance as a 20" A2 FSB.
I'm not sure if you can get a tube long enough to get the front site out much more than the standard 20"... and if you can, it's going to add a lot of weight and turn it into a bench rifle.

When you select your front site, be sure to buy one sized for handguard mounting.
There are gas blocks with a short rail segment on top, and it is slightly lower than the top rail on a tube, so if you buy the wrong one, it will be too short and you won't be able to zero it.

 

[dreadpirate]

Very informative.