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Am I the only one who can only get a couple shaves out of a blade?

I have a feeling that we're both talking about the same thing and you're calling it the opposite.
I think more common terminology holds that shallow angles are those that place the blade's edge nearly parallel with the surface of the skin. At least, that's what I've held to be true. It just makes sense to me for the measurement to be relative to the surface, rather than relative to the perpendicular, despite how we tend to hold and find cutting angles on DEs.

Either way, your posts suddenly make a lot more sense to me. :biggrin1:
 
I think more common terminology holds that shallow angles are those that place the blade's edge nearly parallel with the surface of the skin. At least, that's what I've held to be true. It just makes sense to me for the measurement to be relative to the surface, rather than relative to the perpendicular, despite how we tend to hold and find cutting angles on DEs.

Either way, your posts suddenly make a lot more sense to me. :biggrin1:
Maybe we're all thinking about the same thing and calling it something completely different.

I'm no expert math surgeon, but if you look at a mathematical/geometric plane (the infinite "L" or "+" shape that you drew angles and lines on), the y (vertical) axis being your face and the x (horizontal) axis being your razor head, the closer the razor head (x) is to 90 or perpendicular to the face (y) the shallower the angle, the further the razor head (x) is from 90 or perpendicular to the face (y) the steeper the angle.

Keep in mind that I tested into remedial math in several community college entrance exams...

Let he who is without sin cast the first rock, and we shall smoketh it
 
Steep = handle pointed away - "riding the cap". Not always that extreme, but you know what I mean.

Shallow = handle parallel to face

This confuses the daylights out of me. The steepest angle I can conceive is 90°. The blade is perpendicular to the surface. That occurs when the handle is parallel to the face and you are riding the bar.

The most shallow angle to me is 0° when the blade is flat against the surface. In that case, the handle is away from your face and you are riding the cap.

I admit that there might be a convention that I am not familiar with. I also am thinking the OP thinks of it the opposite from me.

Does the steepness refer to the handle and not the blade?


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I know I'm an outlier here, but I can get 2-3 months with a feather. They are one of my longest lasting blades. I get a month of daily shaves, on average, with most blades.
 
I have a feeling that we're both talking about the same thing and you're calling it the opposite.

Steep = handle pointed away - "riding the cap". Not always that extreme, but you know what I mean.

Shallow = handle parallel to face (or less)
The usual discussion is about blade angle not handle angle because it is the blade at the business end of the razor. If the terms are confused people will not understand what you are discussing. This is the usual designation of steep, neutral and shallow angle we use;
Safety_Razor_Parameters_around_Blade_Cutting_Edge.jpg
 

AimlessWanderer

Remember to forget me!
Maybe we're all thinking about the same thing and calling it something completely different.

I'm no expert math surgeon, but if you look at a mathematical/geometric plane (the infinite "L" or "+" shape that you drew angles and lines on), the y (vertical) axis being your face and the x (horizontal) axis being your razor head, the closer the razor head (x) is to 90 or perpendicular to the face (y) the shallower the angle, the further the razor head (x) is from 90 or perpendicular to the face (y) the steeper the angle.

Keep in mind that I tested into remedial math in several community college entrance exams...

Let he who is without sin cast the first rock, and we shall smoketh it

Your thinking works in relationship of the face to the razor handle, or in terms of the head from horizontal, but in terms of relative angles, the general understanding here for shallower or steeper angles is to talk about the blade in relation to the face. So for example if the cap riding angle is 30 degrees from the face to the blade, and the guard riding angle is 40 degrees from face to blade, the cap riding angle is the shallower (most acute). The razor handle and head are somewhat irrelevant, as different razors curve the blade by different amounts, so the only thing that truly matters is what angle the face is to the blade.
 
Your thinking works in relationship of the face to the razor handle, or in terms of the head from horizontal, but in terms of relative angles, the general understanding here for shallower or steeper angles is to talk about the blade in relation to the face. So for example if the cap riding angle is 30 degrees from the face to the blade, and the guard riding angle is 40 degrees from face to blade, the cap riding angle is the shallower (most acute). The razor handle and head are somewhat irrelevant, as different razors curve the blade by different amounts, so the only thing that truly matters is what angle the face is to the blade.

The usual discussion is about blade angle not handle angle because it is the blade at the business end of the razor. If the terms are confused people will not understand what you are discussing. This is the usual designation of steep, neutral and shallow angle we use;
View attachment 839293


So we're talking about the same thing, but the way I'm saying it is the opposite.

Let he who is without sin cast the first rock, and we shall smoketh it
 
I know I'm an outlier here, but I can get 2-3 months with a feather. They are one of my longest lasting blades. I get a month of daily shaves, on average, with most blades.
As always, YMMV.

In my experience I didn't find the Feathers to be nearly as sharp as the common consensus, so I'm an outlier in regard to Feathers as well. I believe I got 6 shaves out of the ones I've used, with the 3rd-5th shaves being the best of the 6.

Let he who is without sin cast the first rock, and we shall smoketh it
 
guyakaka, you are right, you are using the terms opposite of what I do. Physics of cutting will only permit minimum effort at a very narrow range of angle, specifically the (shallow) angle where the back side bevel provides a few degrees of clearance above the hair as it's cut to lower drag. For most blades, that's about 20 degrees, but modern blades seem to have a small "microbevel" at a slightly steeper angle than blades sharpened with a single bevel, meaning you may need a few more degrees steeper angle to get the clearance.

Anything steeper than that does two things -- it increases the drag against the hair being cut and scrapes more on the skin, both increasing as the angle increases.

That said, there are plenty of people who get nice shaves with decent to exceptional blade life at steep angles (handle close to the face). I don't, I can't even get a close shave with a Polsilver unless I'm shaving a very shallow angle, and it took half the blade life for me to figure that out. No irritation, but no shave either!

Minimum sensation of tugging (and all razor blades tug some, it takes some effort to cut hair, after all) and minimum sound for any particular razor and blade combination should give the most comfortable and close shave. How many shaves you get from a blade depends on blade, razor, and individual beard -- fine hair with a light beard will allow more shaves out of a blade than coarse, dense growth. Just the way things are.

Shave for maximum comfort and efficiency, and you will get good blade life. Specifically, shave in a manner that gives the least sensation of tugging, the rest should follow!

And above all, slick, slick lather. I get some of my best shaves when my lather is so thin it actually drips from the razor. Doesn't matter which soap, as long as it's SLICK you will get a good shave!
 
If you took a survey or observed the people who typically get 10+ shaves per blade you’d notice one thing they consistently do: shave with a steep angle.

I am not. If anything, quite the opposite. Merkur Futur is built to work with a shallow angle, same goes for R41. I've never used a steep angle with it outside of few shaves where I wanted to experiment the angles of the razor. So, those 10-15 shaves are at a steep angle.

For me, the angle is given by the razor and not by my hand. If the razor requires a different angle than the natural one, then I consider the razor as being badly built. I get consistency from not having to deal with the angle, and that's what I'm looking for in a razor.
 

AimlessWanderer

Remember to forget me!
For me, the angle is given by the razor and not by my hand. If the razor requires a different angle than the natural one, then I consider the razor as being badly built. I get consistency from not having to deal with the angle, and that's what I'm looking for in a razor.

That seems a bit harsh.

If you recognise that each razor's angle is different, some offering a steep angle and some offering a shallow angle (plus adjustables which vary in presentation angle), then why is the razor considered badly built if it doesn't suit the angle you've become accustomed to using? That's not badly built, that's just different. Given how some shavers prefer a shallow angle and some prefer steep, surely having a range of different set angles on the market is a good thing ... or have I misinterpretted something?
 
I'm not talking about an angle that I'm personally accustomed to when I say "natural" angle, but the angle that the head design naturally gives you.

On most razors, if you take a look at the way the bottom plate looks, it gives you an angle at which you can hold the razor, and that surface will be parallel to your face. That would be the natural angle. And that would add up to the angle of the blade, how much is bent, and you will have an angle. Now, if I need to raise the razor, in order to make that angle more shallow, because it will scrape, I'm kinda missing the whole purpose of the safety razor. I might as well get a shavette, where I will use whatever angle I consider to be good.

Fatip Grande/Picollo is one of these razors, where, in order to get a good slide, I would have to tilt it more than it would tilt itself due to the built. And it's the main reason of why I didn't like the razor. I would have had to keep the razor in an unnatural position, and that would make it inconsistent. The same goes for DE89, Merkur HD, Ikon 101. The razors simply cut better if you use them at a shallow angle.

That's why the safety razor has this design, to give you the limits where the angle it's just good. If, by design, those limits are outside the natural zone, then I consider the design to be bad. Because there are plenty of razors where you don't need to make this adjustment by hand, they are perfectly designed. And I prefer those razors. R41, Futur, Progress (even if it's not really perfect, is very close), Ikon 102, they stay all pretty good within those limits, and they provide consistency. Not having to manually adjust the angle gives me better control.
 
I'm a steeper angle shaver than not and I shave face and head pretty much daily. I get about 3-4 shaves per blade before it starts getting uncomfortable. I have found my German Wilkinsons last a bit longer than most of my other brands.
 
guyakaka, you are right, you are using the terms opposite of what I do. Physics of cutting will only permit minimum effort at a very narrow range of angle, specifically the (shallow) angle where the back side bevel provides a few degrees of clearance above the hair as it's cut to lower drag. For most blades, that's about 20 degrees, but modern blades seem to have a small "microbevel" at a slightly steeper angle than blades sharpened with a single bevel, meaning you may need a few more degrees steeper angle to get the clearance.

Anything steeper than that does two things -- it increases the drag against the hair being cut and scrapes more on the skin, both increasing as the angle increases.

That said, there are plenty of people who get nice shaves with decent to exceptional blade life at steep angles (handle close to the face). I don't, I can't even get a close shave with a Polsilver unless I'm shaving a very shallow angle, and it took half the blade life for me to figure that out. No irritation, but no shave either!

Minimum sensation of tugging (and all razor blades tug some, it takes some effort to cut hair, after all) and minimum sound for any particular razor and blade combination should give the most comfortable and close shave. How many shaves you get from a blade depends on blade, razor, and individual beard -- fine hair with a light beard will allow more shaves out of a blade than coarse, dense growth. Just the way things are.

Shave for maximum comfort and efficiency, and you will get good blade life. Specifically, shave in a manner that gives the least sensation of tugging, the rest should follow!

And above all, slick, slick lather. I get some of my best shaves when my lather is so thin it actually drips from the razor. Doesn't matter which soap, as long as it's SLICK you will get a good shave!
There is a magic angle for (almost) every blade teamed with (almost) every razor. This can vary slightly depending on which blade you're using in which razor, and how long you've been using the blade, but are generally relatively close.

I'll also start referring to steep as shallow and vice-versa.

Let he who is without sin cast the first rock, and we shall smoketh it
 

AimlessWanderer

Remember to forget me!
I'm not talking about an angle that I'm personally accustomed to when I say "natural" angle, but the angle that the head design naturally gives you.

On most razors, if you take a look at the way the bottom plate looks, it gives you an angle at which you can hold the razor, and that surface will be parallel to your face. That would be the natural angle. And that would add up to the angle of the blade, how much is bent, and you will have an angle. Now, if I need to raise the razor, in order to make that angle more shallow, because it will scrape, I'm kinda missing the whole purpose of the safety razor. I might as well get a shavette, where I will use whatever angle I consider to be good.

Fatip Grande/Picollo is one of these razors, where, in order to get a good slide, I would have to tilt it more than it would tilt itself due to the built. And it's the main reason of why I didn't like the razor. I would have had to keep the razor in an unnatural position, and that would make it inconsistent. The same goes for DE89, Merkur HD, Ikon 101. The razors simply cut better if you use them at a shallow angle.

That's why the safety razor has this design, to give you the limits where the angle it's just good. If, by design, those limits are outside the natural zone, then I consider the design to be bad. Because there are plenty of razors where you don't need to make this adjustment by hand, they are perfectly designed. And I prefer those razors. R41, Futur, Progress (even if it's not really perfect, is very close), Ikon 102, they stay all pretty good within those limits, and they provide consistency. Not having to manually adjust the angle gives me better control.

I'm not sure I understand. I think I'm going to have to study my razors a little to try and understand this ...

OK, I'm back. If you mean the defined "shelf" angle of the guard should be correctly inclined for riding the guard and maintaining best angle (which I think is what you are saying), only one of my four razors has this defined angle - the Edwin Jagger 3D Diamond. The Parker 22 and Wilkinsons Sword offer a more radiused nose, so you will only have point contact, and the Merkur 985 comb kind of just juts straight out, and you are riding on the top corner of the teeth if you are guard/comb riding. I don't know how you'd feel about razors that don't have that defined angle.

There's another aspect to this too. If you expect that flat area (on that one razor) to act as your angle guide, it's not going to be consistent across individual shavers. The guard obviously has to ride ahead of the blade on top of the bristles, and therefore the hair thickness and stubble density will affect height and parallelism. For some users it will be close to the skin, but not for others. Also, on a densely stubbled face, the comb/guard will ride at a different height on the first pass and last pass. This is something that the excellent drawing that Shaving By The Numbers did, also doesn't pick up. The Shave Plane as he calls it, the tangential line from apex of guard to apex of cap, doesn't account to the fact that even if guard riding, the razor will be "nose high" on the first pass.

Finally, and this may be pedantic, so please forgive me, if that shelf angle was indeed level with the face on final pass, and not point contact, there would be more skin contact with the razor, more contact equals more friction, and a higher likelihood that the razor would judder than a razor with point contact if the lather wasn't 100% perfect.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your concept of natural angle. I hope I have understood better this time.
I'm not trying to say "you're wrong", of course you are quite welcome to your own tastes and opinions, but I do disagree that the leading edge should be parallel with the skin. Just my personal take on things, and as ever YMMV.
 
Of course, it's YMMV, as with most things. It's just a thing that I've personally noticed over the years. For me, if I pick up a razor, put it on my face in whatever angle naturally falls, and it's tugging too much or not cutting properly, there's a small chance that I'm gonna get good shaves with it after I find the right angle. If it does that, it cuts just right without me having to find the right angle, I'm gonna rarely get bad shaves.

And I'm not changing the razors too often. I've shaved exclusively with my Futur for more than one year, and only times I ever nicked was on my first two shaves, due to the height and the build of that razor. Other than that, the consistency of my shaves was great, with whatever blade I would have used.


On the other hand, I've also used Merkur HD for about a year, and, with that one, I was all over the place with any blade. I mean, I would get a good shave today, with the same setup, tomorrow, I might've got nicks and maybe some irritation. And, as far as I realized, it was due to the weird angle needed in order for the HD to cut the hair nicely.


Anyway, back to our topic, I don't think that a steep angle lowers your blade life, and I don't think that a shallow one will make the blade last longer. I think that it has a lot to do with misinterpretations on how sharp the blade actually is. Because I can't see any scenario, right now, where I would think that a blade will go dull after 5 shaves. I don't think that, physically, a blade wears so fast, no matter the technique.
 

AimlessWanderer

Remember to forget me!
Yeah, I'm probably at my least consistent with my Merkur (985). With it being a travel razor, I've spent far less time with it. I really ought to get to know it better, so that I'm more conversant with it if I do come to use it.

I'm a believer (rightly or wrongly) that a lot of misinterpretation with blade dulling is having the blade too high off the face. I've had my Merkur snatch like that through me not being fluent with it. I think a well used blade might feel sharper at one angle or another, but like you I don't think the angle affects the rate of dulling that much.
 
Blades last longer with better prep. As my shave technique has matured and as I have focused more and more on my prep/lather, the number of shaves per blade has gone up dramatically.
 
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