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Am I missing out?

It's been a long day. I came home from work late, and my face was pretty scruffy since there was a conference 1.5 hours away I was going to last weekend, and I didn't get a chance to shave since Thursday night. I pulled out a razor I had been planning to sell but have been vacillating over. It's actually my favorite razor when it comes to the aesthetics of it, but I have another just like it that's almost in mint condition. This one has a fair bit of wear in it. It had been honed a couple months ago on my usual "progression", i.e. one coticule from bevel setting to finishing (finishing with clear water). I decided to give it a few water-only passes on one of my coticules anyway followed by the usual 60/60 linen/leather. The edge looked good and seemed to pop hairs mostly fine, so I went at it.

I did my usual prep, which consists of washing my face with cool water while my brush soaks for a couple minutes followed by lathering with cool water. I stopped fussing with warm lather maybe a year and a half ago. My facial hair is curly and very wiry, and warm lather seems to encourage in-grown hairs for me. I really do mean wiry. I've given myself a splinter with one of my hairs before. I thought it was a sliver of metal at first, but, looking under a microscope, I found that it was clearly hair, and the color of it indicated that it was unmistakably mine. I still thought I was nuts until my wife once mentioned getting a splinter from one of my hairs as well! On two occasions! Well, anyway, at least cool/cold water for my lather makes my shaves faster.

Tonight, I decided to try something different. For the longest time, I had found that doing against the grain passes required the most concentration since, even with a long lathering with warm lather right after a warm shower, the razor often tugged even just the tiniest bit if I didn't get the angle (both relative to my skin and laterally) just right. And, hot water softens hair more than cold water, so my way is more prone to tugging than what most do. Also, if I hadn't shortened the hair enough in previous passes, these ATG passes were even more challenging. For me, a really good edge would smoothly go against the grain... as long as I had the angle and prep done right. I don't think it was until a year ago that my edges were fairly consistently satisfactory to me, but I still have my off days when it comes to actually shaving. Anyway, tonight, while about to start my first pass, I decided to do something different. I went straight for the ATG pass. The razor zipped up my neck without any hesitation--not a skip, tug or scrape. The next stroke was the same. I started from the bottom and went upward. I did some across the grain passes just to keep a neat line to my sideburns and on a small area either side of my chin out of habit. Those were the only XTG passes. There were no with the grain passes, and my face feels as smooth as it would after a three pass shave. For every stroke, the spine of the razor was against my skin. My skin does not feel any irritation from those ATG passes. I had shaved off a razor honed on a Spyderco UF hone last week. That particular razor shaved just as willfully, but my skin burned like hell afterwards.

So, on to why this post is in the honing forum. My procedure for honing and shaving is pretty simple. A very small percentage of the time, I will play around with some of the other hones I have: a couple Arkansas stones, a Nakayama and an Oozuku (including my four nagura and a couple tomonagura), synthetics on occasion, chromium oxide paste (still don't like that stuff much), etc. 95% of the time, I'll use only a coticule, creating a bevel with either a Shapton 1k or Cretan hone if needed. It doesn't matter which coticule I choose. I've had dozens over the past three years, but whichever it is, I use that from start to finish. I don't switch to another stone for finishing, although sometimes that means I take a while finishing. I finish with plain water. I don't mess with oil, lather, or whatever cushioning medium is in vogue. I do spend much of that honing time reading various indicators of the edge's progression on the stone. I use the hanging hair test as one of my tools, but the reading can vary depending on humidity or how much conditioner I used in my hair or the thickness of the strand. As explained above, my method of shaving is pretty simple. I shave either at night or after showering, but usually it's at night with no shower beforehand. The way my razor cuts through my hair is more than acceptable to me.

I ask, why do I get great results now when others proclaim that what I use is not enough for them? I mean, I certainly struggled for a while. It was often hit or miss, but increasingly it's almost all hit and rarely miss. I'm also not a terribly patient person nor do I have the best attention span, although I'm amazingly stubborn. So, I've kept chugging along trying to improve. I don't think what I'm shaving is any easier than what others are. I won't claim to have the manliest beard around, but I don't think it's the wimpiest either. I started shaving when I was nine. I've given myself and others splinters with my facial hair. It grows fast and reasonably thick. How is it that what I use isn't sharp enough for so many others? I don't think I'm settling for something mediocre. Is it just a matter of preference? Is it not just the edge but how it's used?
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
I think you have tinkered with your edge so that it suits your face, hair and shaving style perfectly. I will surmise that if I honed one up for you it might feel too harsh, crispy, etc. That is why I really think one MUST learn to hone their own to get the best results possible. Every veteran shaver seems to have a specific "trick" to dial in their razor-oil on a Coticule, diamond spray on a Spyderco, dilutions on a Jnat, and my favorite, CBN and Poly on hanging leather.
Have you gotten any feedback about your edges from other honers?

Edit:you also likely possess a skill many are too impatient to attain, like myself. 5 laps on .1 and 10 laps on .05 and the razor is deadly keen.

Edit:edit: and no, you aren't missing out. I sent Scott some sprayed balsa and all it did was harshen up his Coticule edge.
 
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Probably "dialing in" to your exact needs is a major factor.

Also, I do believe that few men are able to get the kind of keeness you can wring out of a coticule.
I have shaved with two razors you honed & both were waaay beyond what anyone else, sans Bart Torfs, has done with a coticule that I have tried.
And that is not flatter. That's empirical evidence :biggrin:
 
Beware of the man who only owns 1 gun.

Not an exact fit to this thread but close. I also have alot of different hones that I mess around with when honing just to see how far I can take an edge off that stone. But when it comes down to honing for someone else or my daily shaver I have two goto hones. my Coticule and Jnat. I have done alot of honing on these two stones and know them very well. I can tell from water displacement and feedback from razor on stone where my edge is for the most part. I think this is where being dialed in takes place. in the case of beware of the man who ones 1 gun you can assume that he is very efficient in the use of said gun because that is all he uses. same with stone. you are able to squeeze all that potential out of your stone because you have alot of experience with that stone.

This is just my rambling opinion though.
 
Coti finishes (even some finishes sharper than that) Struggle for me at the upper half of my ATG over throat pass, and oftentimes at my ATG into throat side arcs. If they didn't I'd be happy to use a Coti. One stone honing would be a nice thing to have for my shaves. I see improvement on other hones. Perhaps more than that is that coti's never "glide" for me. Someone in another forum (Creams or Soaps I think) was talking about using a DE and he used the phrase "I thought I had forgotten to put a blade in". I get that feeling from my higher end finishes. Coti's always feel like they're sawing through my beard. I hear them cutting, and I feel the hair push back a little when they do.

That said. Coti edges LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the strop for me. And I doubt I ever do a 60/60 stropping (I don't count, but just tedium counting suggests I do 24-50 each). So it's possible that I'd gain some smoothness on a coti edge if I bumped the stropping up some more. I doubt I'd see that huge of an improvement though to be honest.


As for your beard: It's possible that though you think it makes your beard harder to cut, the properties you mention actually don't have that effect.
 
What was the question again?

He shaves with coticule edges. Wants to know why some people don't find them sufficient.

I'll reply to the other replies after work, but basically that. I frequently see others say that they've used coticules for a while and find the edge too dull. I don't. I'd like to understand why this is. I also don't find most synthetic edges to be significantly sharper if at all sharper, which I rarely find to be the case. I occasionally find a synthetic edge to feel harsher, but I think this may often be because I haven't used them enough.
 
i have no problems with shaving of my coticule... tryed most edges of differant hones and i just love the feel of a coticule edge .. i've had more ups and downs in the past but i get consistantly nice kee smooth comfortable shave s from coticule.... against the grain for my tough beard was aproblem untill i relized keeping razor flat to skin was spot on, especaialy under chin area... i've had razors proffesional honed with syths and i have rehoned them all after first shave. After rehoning there was distinct and notisable differance .. no sharper but defanatley more fluffy and comfortable edge ... synths arn't for me .. i do like paste crox especaily
 
This argument goes on in the woodworking world a lot. what do I need to buy, what should I use and how should I use it to get the results that ____ says, etc.

Probably 9 times out of 10, the difference between getting the results you want vs. not getting them comes down to experience. Beginners don't like to hear that, but it's true with woodworking and probably to some extent with shaving (it was for me). If sharpening a razor and shaving was the monstrous academic exercise that it is sometimes perceived to be by beginners, people wouldn't have been able to do it 200 years ago when not everyone had the abundance of hones, etc. I'm assuming that the local general store probably had some products to help shavers who needed to shave (and the percentage of folks doing it every day was probably pretty low), maybe some mined natural stones and some iron oxide powder, etc, to strop (certainly powders were around, as jewelers and metalworkers used them in the days before aluminum oxide was cheap).

Anyway, experience is generally between anyone and their goals, and not gadgetry and piles of hones and 1/20th micron sprays.

But I'm as guilty as anyone of letting curiosity dictate purchases I didn't need to make.
 
I'll reply to the other replies after work, but basically that. I frequently see others say that they've used coticules for a while and find the edge too dull. I don't. I'd like to understand why this is. I also don't find most synthetic edges to be significantly sharper if at all sharper, which I rarely find to be the case. I occasionally find a synthetic edge to feel harsher, but I think this may often be because I haven't used them enough.

are ya'll takin bout me?

it's prob cause I have crap technique more that the coti don't work.
 
This argument goes on in the woodworking world a lot. what do I need to buy, what should I use and how should I use it to get the results that ____ says, etc.

Probably 9 times out of 10, the difference between getting the results you want vs. not getting them comes down to experience. Beginners don't like to hear that, but it's true with woodworking and probably to some extent with shaving (it was for me). If sharpening a razor and shaving was the monstrous academic exercise that it is sometimes perceived to be by beginners, people wouldn't have been able to do it 200 years ago when not everyone had the abundance of hones, etc. I'm assuming that the local general store probably had some products to help shavers who needed to shave (and the percentage of folks doing it every day was probably pretty low), maybe some mined natural stones and some iron oxide powder, etc, to strop (certainly powders were around, as jewelers and metalworkers used them in the days before aluminum oxide was cheap).

Anyway, experience is generally between anyone and their goals, and not gadgetry and piles of hones and 1/20th micron sprays.

But I'm as guilty as anyone of letting curiosity dictate purchases I didn't need to make.



Razor hones were hit or miss. People who could afford them used coti's or thuri's which were the best solutions. There were a few decent synths, but generally if you could afford it you got a coti/thuri. Arkansas and other naturals (CF's, a few slates) saw regional use. But the only ones that seems to actually get shipped out of country of origin with any regularity (as razor hones) were coti/thuri. Strop treatments existed but seem to have been pretty rare. I recall some people just rubbed white chalk into linen strops as a treatment, it seems that was more common than commercial treatments (it just made the strop coarser, chalk won't abrade steel). Backhoning on glass has some small amount of support based on barbers guides I've read.
 
Do you shave daily or no? Skipping days always makes shaving easier for me, daily shaving making things a lot more fickle..

Just curious...

When I skip days I can get smooth results from a decent coticule edge . The problem I face is daily shaving, then things are harder to work out and never as smooth and if I skipped 1-2 days.
 
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Yep. And the same is true. I'll use a soap after having skipped a day, think it's ok then try it again in my normal daily shavings and go... wow... nooooo slip.... at.... allll.


Razor dragging from bad soap doesn't matter so much with two days growth. Daily though, I need good lather.
 
I think you have tinkered with your edge so that it suits your face, hair and shaving style perfectly. I will surmise that if I honed one up for you it might feel too harsh, crispy, etc.

I'd certainly entertain the thought. I wouldn't say no to exchanging and comparing.

Have you gotten any feedback about your edges from other honers?

I've mostly gotten feedback from "clients" of coticule.be's free honing service, but I also have received unsolicited feedback from people I sell razors to. Either way, it's overall fairly positive feedback, but I don't know who's just being polite. :001_tongu

Edit:you also likely possess a skill many are too impatient to attain, like myself. 5 laps on .1 and 10 laps on .05 and the razor is deadly keen.

Possibly! Like I said, I'm very stubborn. Interestingly, so is Bart...

Edit:edit: and no, you aren't missing out. I sent Scott some sprayed balsa and all it did was harshen up his Coticule edge.

Jens honed up a couple razors with CBN for me. They were pretty good, but unfortunately that kind of edge didn't seem to hold up long. It's kind of like racing tires.

Also, I do believe that few men are able to get the kind of keeness you can wring out of a coticule.
I have shaved with two razors you honed & both were waaay beyond what anyone else, sans Bart Torfs, has done with a coticule that I have tried.
And that is not flatter. That's empirical evidence :biggrin:

:blushing:

I can tell from water displacement and feedback from razor on stone where my edge is for the most part. I think this is where being dialed in takes place.

Actually, I really do think that, once you get the basics of honing without ****ing up the edge, like by raising the spine, maybe 90% of the effort is in reading the razor on the hone and getting better at the finishing stage. That's at least how I feel I've spent all that learning time.

in the case of beware of the man who ones 1 gun you can assume that he is very efficient in the use of said gun because that is all he uses. same with stone. you are able to squeeze all that potential out of your stone because you have alot of experience with that stone.

I agree that there's something to be said for perseverance. It's probably true that I could have learned to get very similar results in less time (as in less time spent learning, not necessarily less time per honing) using other methods. I know that my honing a couple years ago was not what it is today.

As for your beard: It's possible that though you think it makes your beard harder to cut, the properties you mention actually don't have that effect.

Empirically, I've found that they seem to make a difference. Lathering the same amount of time with cold water as with hot water, I find that the hair is harder to cut. It's true that I don't know if going ATG first makes a difference, but at least, when going ATG first when I haven't shaved for a few days, there's no chance of the razor skipping over the hair like there is if the hair length has already been reduced by a previous pass. I would notice more if the edge wasn't up to the task.

i have no problems with shaving of my coticule... tryed most edges of differant hones and i just love the feel of a coticule edge .. i've had more ups and downs in the past but i get consistantly nice kee smooth comfortable shave s from coticule.... against the grain for my tough beard was aproblem untill i relized keeping razor flat to skin was spot on, especaialy under chin area... i've had razors proffesional honed with syths and i have rehoned them all after first shave. After rehoning there was distinct and notisable differance .. no sharper but defanatley more fluffy and comfortable edge ... synths arn't for me .. i do like paste crox especaily

Yeah, I've had my ups and downs in the past. I of course still have my off days. I've found problems with my honing, my lathering, what soap I use (some soaps irritate my skin a little bit before I've even started shaving), what angle I use, how heavy-handed I am, etc.

I'm not sure why I don't like chromium oxide. I have a bottle of Hand American chromium oxide. To be honest, probably the only reason I try it on occasion is because the bottle I have would probably last a lifetime. I should try TI chromium oxide. I've heard good things about it.

This argument goes on in the woodworking world a lot. what do I need to buy, what should I use and how should I use it to get the results that ____ says, etc.

And then, you even see the same question posted only hours or days after the previous such question!

Anyway, experience is generally between anyone and their goals, and not gadgetry and piles of hones and 1/20th micron sprays.

But I'm as guilty as anyone of letting curiosity dictate purchases I didn't need to make.

Right. I'm not immune to curiosity either. I've got a couple handfuls of coticules (not to mention the other stones) not out of necessity. I know I'm just as pleased by the results from any one of them. And, despite the fact that I went to a respectable university that's got "technology" in the name, even my most accomplished professors taught me to use my hands and intuition more than advanced tools.

are ya'll takin bout me?

it's prob cause I have crap technique more that the coti don't work.

Nah, you hadn't even crossed my mind (in a good way!). Also, don't you have a huge pile of razors and a messy desk you should be working on right now? :001_tongu

Razor hones were hit or miss. People who could afford them used coti's or thuri's which were the best solutions. There were a few decent synths, but generally if you could afford it you got a coti/thuri. Arkansas and other naturals (CF's, a few slates) saw regional use. But the only ones that seems to actually get shipped out of country of origin with any regularity (as razor hones) were coti/thuri. Strop treatments existed but seem to have been pretty rare. I recall some people just rubbed white chalk into linen strops as a treatment, it seems that was more common than commercial treatments (it just made the strop coarser, chalk won't abrade steel). Backhoning on glass has some small amount of support based on barbers guides I've read.

Various grades of Arkansas stones are sold in other countries even to this day. I once saw some export numbers from early in the 20th century but don't have them handy. Several sources also mention them with highest regard, just like with coticules. Pasted strops seem to have been common enough for there to be a constant flow on auction sites, but they're supposedly more popular in Europe.

Have you forgotten the 15-20 coticules you have purchased before you found one that worked for you?

Nope, and I didn't sell them because they didn't work. In fact, the first one I sold because I thought at the time that it was too small. I still regret selling it because it was very fast and beautiful with its manganese lines. The second one I bought I regretted selling and have spent a while trying to find a "replacement" for it. I like the earthy smell and nice feedback it provided. It was also decently fast. The third one I bought is one I still have. I think the only reason I didn't stupidly sell it is because of the Pike box it came in. I've sold all the slate-back ones I've owned because I prefer the aesthetics of naturally bonded combo coticules. I've sold other ones to fund other purchases then been a sucker for the beauty of some stone I found.

Do you shave daily or no? Skipping days always makes shaving easier for me, daily shaving making things a lot more fickle..

Just curious...

When I skip days I can get smooth results from a decent coticule edge . The problem I face is daily shaving, then things are harder to work out and never as smooth and if I skipped 1-2 days.

I usually shave every few days out of (lack of) habit, but I occasionally shave every day. If I have problems with shaving daily (not saying the two go hand-in-hand), it's not really with getting smooth results but with my skin getting irritated. But, I've singled that out mostly to my skin getting irritated by the soap I'd been using. I've made those soaps body soaps instead, finding that my body's skin got a bit irritated too after a few days. If you'd like, I'll do my best to shave every day for a few weeks.

Yep. And the same is true. I'll use a soap after having skipped a day, think it's ok then try it again in my normal daily shavings and go... wow... nooooo slip.... at.... allll.


Razor dragging from bad soap doesn't matter so much with two days growth. Daily though, I need good lather.

Yeah, I don't know if it's whether a particular soap provides poor glide or not. I usually find that it takes me a while to get the best lather out of a soap anyway, most especially if I keep switching between soaps. But, I seem to be fairly sensitive to lots of chemicals used in body care products.
 
Arks were widely distributed. But I've seen very few that were sold or used as razor hones outside this country (pretty rare as razor hones even in this country, but there are a few floating around).

I can't say that I've ever seen a vintage pasted strop sold on an auction site. I've seen a tin or two of abrasive strop treatments, but of the dozens of vintage (and well used) strops I've found, none have shown any evidence of treatment with anything but chalk. I'm sure they're out there, but they seem exceptionally rare.


Four sided paddles are the one exception but they certainly aren't seen often enough I'd call them common.
 
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Arks were widely distributed. But I've seen very few that were sold or used as razor hones outside this country (pretty rare as razor hones even in this country, but there are a few floating around).

I don't usually see them with any markings, so I couldn't say. I've seen very old references to using them with razors and microtomes.
 
Yeah there's a few razor arks out there. There just aren't very many. From the boxed examples and the wear I've seen Arkansas were sold and used as knife and tool hones much more commonly than as razor hones. And of the barbers kits I've picked up, Cotis and synths dominated. Never gotten an ark out of one.
 
If I try to shave daily with a coticule edge I can get redness on my neck and not so smooth results on the sides of my neck as well. If I shave daily with a razor honed on lapping film finished on Cerium oxide and then stropped normal I can shave daily without any irritation or rough spots...Now I have not tried to shave daily with a coticule then Cerium on a strop, I probably could. Maybe the paste is the factor.
 
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