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Am I honing a frown into this edge?

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I have noticed this comment more then once in the forum but have not seen an explanation. Just curious of the reason should you be honing in hand on lapping film and pasted strop?

Please excuse my ignorance and off topic question
There are a few good reasons. The two main ones are that you have a much better feel for the pressure that you are honing with and secondly your honing medium tends to follow the shape of the edge. By following the shape of the edge, I mean that it tends to hone along any slight smile that may be in the edge.

Honing bench-mounted does not have the above advantages. As a person becomes more proficient in honing, they tend towards bench-mounted honing. I now set bevels and do initial refining bench-mounted. I still use my lapping films and (always) pasted balsa in-hand. I have only honed about 100 SRs from bevel set to finish so I am still perfecting my honing technique.

When using my Adaee #12000 Cnat whetstone, I do hone bench-mounted and that seems to work will for me. I must be improving.
 
In my opinion if you use allot of half strokes and circles I think you are increasing the chance of creating a frown. Rolling x strokes, with focus on the heel and the toe. The middle with usually come along nicely.
Thanks for your reply.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, I would just like to make sure that I understand correclty, so in other words:

When using a narrow hone, even if you are honing a razor with a straight edge, it is best to treat it as if it already has a frown.

Or phrased differently;

If honing a razor with a straight edge on a narrow hone, it is best to aim for a slight smile as a means of keeping the edge straight.

That way, even if you get it wrong, you are likely to still have an edge that at least tends towards being straight, or even a nice smile.
 
Thanks for your reply.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, I would just like to make sure that I understand correclty, so in other words:

When using a narrow hone, even if you are honing a razor with a straight edge, it is best to treat it as if it already has a frown.

Or phrased differently;

If honing a razor with a straight edge on a narrow hone, it is best to aim for a slight smile as a means of keeping the edge straight.

That way, even if you get it wrong, you are likely to still have an edge that at least tends towards being straight, or even a nice smile.
That might be one way of looking at it. I do not have any razors that has a perfectly straight edge. Most of them have some slight warp in them. A simple way around that is to shift your pressure from heel to toe and hone to a smile but not purposely creating one.
The heel tend to see less time on the stone, so a slight heel leading, or focus on the heel is usually required for me. On a narrow hone the toe is also seeing less time one the stone, hence the need to focus a little extra on the toe. The middle of the edge tend to see a little more time on the stone.
I would not call my razors happy, but if you put them next to a straight edge they lean towards having a slight smile.
 
Hand honing or honing on a bench has nothing to do with honing a frown.

It is all about where you put the pressure. There is always pressure or the razor would not stay on the stone. “Weight of the Blade” is BS.

There are light strokes, but not weight of the blade. Try it, put the blade on a stone and push it from the spine… That’s weight of the blade.

A frown comes from honing straight strokes because you will naturally put more pressure on the middle of the blade. Here again, try it. Ink the bevels and do a single light stroke on a high grit stone, where does the ink come off first?

If you arc the stroke, even slightly you will vary the pressure from the heel to the toe. If you overthink it, you will add too much pressure and hone the heel and toe more and cause a smiling edge. Which is actually a good thing and the even slightly curved edge will automatically give you a slicing cut, as opposed to a push cut.

Try push cutting a tomato or loaf of bread with a dull knife, then use a slicing cut. Beard hair is no different.

Smiling edge razors you will need an exegeted arc and need to lift the heel to hone the toe. This is a Rolling X, but for most razor you do not need to “roll/lift” to hone an edge completely.

If you use a straight stroke, like using the Axe Method, just arc the stroke slightly, so that the tip of the toe starts out near the edge but finishes near the middle of the stone at the bottom, The arc is only about 1-inch and most of the razor stays on the stone the whole time. You can actually get away with about a ¼ inch of edge to middle movement for most razors.

If you look at videos of guys honing a rolling X, you will note that the heel comes off the stone within the first inch of travel, while the toe remains on the stone the whole time.

You must compensate for this and hone the heel separately with heel forward 45-degree strokes or make sure to keep the heel on the stone until the halfway point, so it is like an inverted J stroke.

Proper/ consistant honing is all about eliminating as many variables as possible. If you hone on a bench as opposed to handheld, you just eliminated half of the variables.
 
Just curious of the reason should you be honing in hand on lapping film and pasted strop?

Honing in hand implies holding the razor with one hand - your dominant hand.

My advice is to learn to hone both using two hands and using one hand. Whether you set the stone down or hold the stone in hand when holding the razor with one hand will depend on personal preference and the size/weight of the stone.

Both one and two hands are useful. When I started, I only felt comfortable using two hands. I now tend to use two hands during the initial stages of setting a bevel (metal removal) and then tend to change to one hand. I seem to have an easier time feeling the edge on the stone when using one hand.

Would you use two hands to spread soft butter or peanut butter on a piece of firm bread?
 
Honing in hand implies holding the razor with one hand - your dominant hand.

My advice is to learn to hone both using two hands and using one hand. Whether you set the stone down or hold the stone in hand when holding the razor with one hand will depend on personal preference and the size/weight of the stone.

Both one and two hands are useful. When I started, I only felt comfortable using two hands. I now tend to use two hands during the initial stages of setting a bevel (metal removal) and then tend to change to one hand. I seem to have an easier time feeling the edge on the stone when using one hand.

Would you use two hands to spread soft butter or peanut butter on a piece of firm bread?
I think in this context it means razor in one hand and hone in the other. As opposed to hone in the bench
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
It is nearly always a good idea to round the heel, and definitely so if you are getting a heel hook. If you are having a hard time staying off the shoulder, then removing the last 1/8" or more of the heel end of the edge will help you a lot. Try it on a fleabay rescue or a GD before you do it on a nicer razor, though. A cheap set of diamond plates from Harbor Freight work great for heel fixing, and the cost is minimal. You can also use them for your work knives, machetes, axes, any edge where perfect flatness and consistency is not needed. Grinding a heel off a razor is a fine application for those metal eaters. I would avoid using power tools for this, initially. It is easy to mess up the razor beyond fixing.

If your edge treetops along the entire length, and your shaves are good, then there is obviously nothing wrong with your honing. The blade has a very slight warp, so the middle gets excess love on one side, not so much on the other. That is fine, as long as you do have a bevel facet along the entire length of the blade on both sides, and they meet at a sharp, smooth edge. No need to change your honing if your results are good.

Weight of blade only is excellent for finishing. Honing in hand is likewise excellent, especially for finishing but also for the entire progression. An experienced hand can get great results from bench honing. Nor argument there, from me. However, I encourage beginners to hone in hand for the same reasons @rbscebu stated. A slight x stroke motion is good even when your honing surface ls wider than the blade is long. A sharpie test can reveal much about your honing and your bevel. Paint it with the sharpie and make two or three very light passes on your stone or film. Look and see what you got. Learn to read the reflections when you roll the blade under a very bright work light, preferably with magnification.

You seem to be making good progress in your honing journey. Stick with it a while, before you make fundamental changes in your methods.
 
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Heel has been reprofiled. Next I’ll kill the edge and reset the bevel.
 
This heel is still giving me problems even after correcting it. Should I have moved the corner farther from the stabilizer? I used a nickel as a template for my arc. I don't have a diamond plate or file, so I made due with 180 grit PSA sandpaper stuck to a polished granite tile. It worked but wasn't very fun.

I inked the bevels and this is what I got after two light passes. THese were straight passes (slightly heel leading), no x-strokes or rolling.

I'm staying off the shoulder. Pretty good contact along the whole edge, but spine is not touching at the tip.
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No love on the inner half of the edge. At least I'm staying off the shoulder
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What should I have done to get full contact on this side? What I did was use my finger to put a little pressure on the spine near the stabilizer and honed some more with rolling x-strokes. I'm worried this has made my frown problem worse... A straightedge tells me there isn't a frown yet but it sure looks like it's on the verge.

This is after working it with my finger on the bevel. The more I look at it the more I see a frown.
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So... how do I come back from this?
 
The first photo looks good at the heel and just missing the toe. That is not uncommon. On most toes you need to use a rolling X stroke and lift the heel slightly. Usually about a 32nd of an inch. The ink will tell you how much you need to lift. Do not use a lot of pressure as you are only honing a very small part of the bevel.

The second photo looks like you are not making any contact on the back side bevel, is that correct?

Does look like a bit of a frown, be careful with finger pressure.

What stone are these bevel honed on?

Are you using tape? How many layers?

Does the razor sit flat on the hone, on both sides?
 
The second photo looks like you are not making any contact on the back side bevel, is that correct?
That’s correct. I have good contact along the whole spine but no contact on the bevel from the heel to about halfway along the edge.


What stone are these bevel honed on?
I started on 12um film but wasn’t making much progress. So I switched to 800 grit w/d spray glued to my acrylic block.

Are you using tape? How many layers?
Not using tape.

Does the razor sit flat on the hone, on both sides?
It sits perfectly flat on the show side. On the back side there is a tiny bit of wobble. It’s very slightly off the acrylic at the heel area where I’m not getting contact. Not enough to rock back and forth, but it clinks if I tap the heel with my finger.
 
So, you probably have a bit of a warp, (very slight). The stamped side (with etch) is your Convex side and the back side your Concave side.

You will need to hone each side differently.

On the back side, (Concave side) you roll down.

With a rolling X stroke you start with the heel on the stone and the toe tip near the upper left corner, hone an inverted J, keeping the heel on the stone until ½ to 1/3rd of the stone then drop the heel off the stone and swoop the tip so it ends up near the middle and opposite corner. The X stroke does not need to be exaggerated from corner to corner.

As the heel comes off the stone it will hone the middle. Do not use a lot of pressure, once the heel is off the stone all the pressure is on the middle. The goal is to hone with even pressure, so the bevel is honed evenly across the whole length.

Ink on the bevels will tell you if your stroke, lift or drop and pressure are correct, (removing ink) and how much you need to drop, (not much).

The stamped side Convex side the middle is mostly on the stone and heel and toe are on the stone alternately.

“It sits perfectly flat on the show side.” Not really, look at the bevel, it is wider in the middle and narrow on the heel and toe.

You hone the convex side with the same X/J stroke but lift the heel up to evenly hone the whole bevel. Again, not much lift, the ink will tell you how much, probably a 32nd to 1/16 inch.

I would put a single layer of tape to smooth out and protect the spine from any additional spine wear. It will also increase your angle a degree or two and make it easier to get an even edge on it.

Once you have mastered honing, then decide if you want to continue using tape. There is no downside to using tape.

If you need to work the toe on the Concave side, do so with the heel and half the razor off the stone.

Take your time, use lots of ink and do not use a lot of pressure. Make sure your stone edge/corner, is beveled or better rounded.

The amount of lift or drop is very slight, almost just thinking about it is enough, you hands do the rest.

Try the 12um film, the 800 may be too aggressive. If you are removing ink and not making progress then go to the 800, but you will need to remove all the deep 800 stria.
 
Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft for the advice. This is only the 3rd razor I’ve honed, the first two happened to be evenly ground and straight, and so were easy to hone. This one, not so much…
 
The razor looks well ground, with those scales it was probably an upper end razor.

The warp comes from the heat treat and is actually pretty common. Many new razors have a slight warp and is why most bevels are uneven.

For most razors the warp is so slight it can be honed with a straight stroke and will still take an edge, the bevels are just uneven.

You should learn and master the Rolling X stroke, I finish all razors with that stroke. The razor dictates how much “roll” it needs, it is a great finishing stroke.
 
You should learn and master the Rolling X stroke, I finish all razors with that stroke. The razor dictates how much “roll” it needs, it is a great finishing stroke.
I finished honing this razor on the weekend and it turned out very nicely. I got lots of practice with a rolling x stroke and I can do it a lot better now than when I first started it. I've got a couple $5 ebay beaters that I'll use for more honing practice. I should have started on those instead of a nice razor, but sometimes I just can't help myself.
 
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