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Am I honing a frown into this edge?

Today I noticed that the bevel is a lot wider in the middle than at the heel and toe. Is this the early stage of a frowning blade?

I’m fairly new at honing (a couple months experience) with a lapping film and balsa setup.

FWIW this is my best edge so far. I spent a lot of time making sure the bevel was set along the whole length before moving on.

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The other side has a thin bevel where the show side is fat, and fat where the show side is thin. The width variation on this side is a little less pronounced.
 
Looks ok to me. It’s pretty common for the bevels to be uneven. This can be caused by slight imperfections in the grind or a warp in the blade. In the latter case you will typically see the opposite bevel pattern on the reserve side of the razor. As long as there is some sort of bevel, you will have an edge and it doesn’t matter. It’s just cosmetic and doesn’t effect the straightness of the edge.

It would be pretty difficult to hone a frown into a razor using film and balsa. The wide honing surface stops that from happening. You might get a tapper from uneven pressure or overzealous x-strokes but a frown would be tough to do. It is more of a risk with thinner hones but it can easily be avoided with good technique.

At any rate, a thickening in the bevel is not a tell for a developing frown. A thickening in the hone wear patch on the spine can be but not always. Visual inspection, wide hones and actively promoting a smile are the best bet for prevention.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
@Tomo has it tight. If honing in-hand, as you should be with lapping films and pasted balsa strops, it is almost impossible to hone a frown into an edge. Exactly the opposite will often occur where you will and up putting a slight smile on the edge.

I often start with a straight edge and end up with a slight smile due to my honing technique.
 
The wide honing surface stops that from happening.
Thank you. I didn’t know what caused a frowning edge. I saw that wide bevel and got worried.

If honing in-hand, as you should be with lapping films and pasted balsa strops, it is almost impossible to hone a frown into an edge.
Yes I’m honing in hand.

Good to know I’m not ruining this blade. It shaves really nicely but I’m getting sick of dealing with the crappy scales.
 
How to you find the scales "crappy"?
They're badly warped and loose. The warp is bad enough that the edge hits one scale if I don't push it to the centre while closing it. I've tried at least half a dozen times to straighten them with hot water, and they're better but still not very good. They need to be repinned at least, or maybe new scales are in order.

It's not all bad though - I chipped the edge when the scales flopped shut on it, but that forced me to reset the bevel, giving me a wonderful edge 😃😃 I bought myself a loupe which made a big difference seeing what's going on with the bevel.
 
Yes, it looks like, what grit film are you using and how did you set the bevel.

So, a couple of issues with the razor, First the razor may have some slight warp, but looks pretty straight, (look at the wear on the spine, it is similar on both sides. All the pressure/spine wear is on the heel end). Second you are honing over the stabilizer because the heel could use reprofiling or more care with your honing stroke.

If you reprofile the heel, it will move the heel corner further away from the stabilizer, allowing the heel half of the blade to sit flat on the hone and prevent the sharp heel corner you are making. Eventually it will form a hook and can cut you as is. It is a 5-minute fix.

Film is aggressive, you can easily hone a frown with film, especially if you use pressure in an attempt to hone the heel that is off the stone.

There are no rules,

You can hone on film on a bench,” honing in-hand, as you should be with lapping films” is an opinion that has no bearing on your issue. Frowns are caused by pressure, honing straight strokes or forcing a heel onto the abrasive. You can hand hone and still use excessive pressure or do excessive laps.

To hone a razor with a slight warp, a rolling X stroke will easily hone the edge and prevent a frown by spreading the pressure to the heel and toe and hone the edge towards a slight smile.

Bottom line, reprofile the heel, or pay more attention to your stroke, (do not hone over the stabilizer) and use a rolling X stroke in place of a straight stroke to prevent a frown.

Breadknife the edge straight and reset the bevel.

Yes, floppy scales make it more difficult to hone and especially strop a razor properly. A single errant stropping stroke can damage an edge.
 
Yep, What Marty said.
Think of it this way. What part of the blade stays on the stone, or sandpaper in your case? The middle! So if you go straight into the grits without a rocking and/or a slicing motion you will wear the center more and cause a frown.

And you're honing your stabilizer and that's not good. Another issue when honing on sandpaper, it happens less on a stone as you can feel the difference more when honing on a stone.
Fix the heal before it hooks, and learn to hone properly and you will never hone a frown into a razor.

I don't see a frown just yet. and a warped blade will always have opposite bevel thicknesses on the other side. It is normal for TI razors nowadays. And it's a shame they don't put more effort into their grinding.
 
Second you are honing over the stabilizer because the heel could use reprofiling or more care with your honing stroke.
It's the second one. The first time around honing this razor I didn't pay enough attention and ended up honing onto the stabilizer. I was shocked at how much wear there was once I looked at it and realized what I'd done. The next time around I took more care not to let the stabilizer ride up onto the film.

Bottom line, reprofile the heel, or pay more attention to your stroke, (do not hone over the stabilizer) and use a rolling X stroke in place of a straight stroke to prevent a frown.
I've already started to pay more attention to the stabilizer but I guess the damage is already done. I thought rolling X strokes were typically used on smiling razors? Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand why I would need a rolling x when the edge isn't smiling and the film is wider than the razor.

Fix the heal before it hooks, and learn to hone properly and you will never hone a frown into a razor.
To fix it do I round it off where it's starting to get sharp? I think I saw a tutorial somewhere using a quarter as a guide and grinding it down to that radius. Is that the right approach?
 
I thought rolling X strokes were typically used on smiling razors? Forgive my ignorance, but I don't understand why I would need a rolling x when the edge isn't smiling and the film is wider than the razor.
X-strokes are always a good idea, in my opinion. The amount of roll is determined by the amount of smile, but if you're trying to hone away from a frown you need to lean into the heel and toe a little bit to make that happen.
 
Yup, but the goal is to move the corner of the heel, (where the edge turns towards the spine) away from the stabilizer by at least a ¼ inch or more.

This allows the edge to sit flat on the stone. A by product is you get rid of the sharp corner.

It is easy and quick to do, takes about 5 minutes with a Diamond plate or Diamond file.

If you filled to the red circle, you would move the corner from the red arrow to the green arrow. This will make honing much easier, bevel straighter, less wear on the spine, allow the bevels to meet fully, and make you better looking and your teeth whiter.

Ok, Ok the teeth thing maybe not but the rest is absolutely true.

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Rosseforp

I think this fits, Gents
Yup, but the goal is to move the corner of the heel, (where the edge turns towards the spine) away from the stabilizer by at least a ¼ inch or more.

This allows the edge to sit flat on the stone. A by product is you get rid of the sharp corner.

It is easy and quick to do, takes about 5 minutes with a Diamond plate or Diamond file.

If you filled to the red circle, you would move the corner from the red arrow to the green arrow. This will make honing much easier, bevel straighter, less wear on the spine, allow the bevels to meet fully, and make you better looking and your teeth whiter.

Ok, Ok the teeth thing maybe not but the rest is absolutely true.

View attachment 1487561
I totally agree, even the teeth whitening!

~doug~
 
Sometimes helps to think about what you are trying to accomplish.

In general, you are trying to get every mm of the edge to make contact. The reason people use rolling x-strokes on edges with smiles is to ensure that last few mm of the edge near the heel and toe make contact with the stone. You can roll the pressure without raising the toe and/or heel off the stone and, if necessary, you can raise the toe and/or heel. How much pressure you roll and/or raise the toe and/or heel depends on the shape of the edge. When using rolling x-strokes try to focus on the edge making contact with the stone.

It's very easy to apply too much pressure/torque and remove more metal than you want. Pay attention to how much pressure you are applying and how much (black) swarf is being produced. If you see a giant cloud of swarf, you may be applying more pressure then needed. And too much pressure may produce a wider bevel reveal.

Just take your time and closely monitor your progress with your loupe. And take a break after an hour or so.
 
. The wide honing surface stops that from happening. You might get a tapper from uneven pressure or overzealous x-strokes but a frown would be tough to do. It is more of a risk with thinner hones but it can easily be avoided with good technique.
I am interested in what the correct technique is to avoid honing a frown into a razor on a thin hone. I haven't seen anything specific on this topic before.
Please can you elaborate ?
 
I am interested in what the correct technique is to avoid honing a frown into a razor on a thin hone. I haven't seen anything specific on this topic before.
Please can you elaborate ?
In my opinion if you use allot of half strokes and circles I think you are increasing the chance of creating a frown. Rolling x strokes, with focus on the heel and the toe. The middle with usually come along nicely.
 
@Tomo has it tight. If honing in-hand, as you should be with lapping films and pasted balsa strops, it is almost impossible to hone a frown into an edge. Exactly the opposite will often occur where you will and up putting a slight smile on the edge.

I often start with a straight edge and end up with a slight smile due to my honing technique.
I have noticed this comment more then once in the forum but have not seen an explanation. Just curious of the reason should you be honing in hand on lapping film and pasted strop?

Please excuse my ignorance and off topic question
 
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