Sorry for skimming, your plan is 1k to 3k to bbw to 12k? Doable. But so is 3k to 12k with enough time onn 12k.
Advice on improving my honing
- Thread starter porkpiehat
- Start date
Ok. This may be a bit counter culture, so I'll preface it with the disclaimer that the following is my personal opinion and should be taken as that.
Over the two years I have been honing I have concluded that there is no recipe, no perfect progression, no perfect set of stones. The only way to hone is to "just do" it as opposed to "try to do" it according to some formula. Naturals, synthetics, films, pastes, all work and provide unique experiences that can result in stellar edges with different characteristics that suit different preferences.
I agree that you need the right basics: stones, pastes, films, etc., that are appropriate for you chosen method. Those are we documented in the threads of B&B and all across YouTube.
But, given a basic kit, I've found that the key for me is to "listen to the razor". It's a Zen thing that only comes from being quiet and mindful when honing. The sound of the razor on the stone, the appearance of the swarf amount and pattern, the feel of the razor across the length of the edge, the look of the water as the razor moves through it, that moment when the "sticktion" starts to grab the blade. All of these are telling me something about what's happening and what is needed, but I have to "listen".
So my advice on how to improve is to stop "trying to improve" and just let the razor tell you what it wants. Yes, you will have failures, but the razor is still there and ready for you to try again. All you've lost is time, and likely you learned something from those moments when you were able to "hear" what the razor, stone, and water were saying.
Good luck. You will get there.
Over the two years I have been honing I have concluded that there is no recipe, no perfect progression, no perfect set of stones. The only way to hone is to "just do" it as opposed to "try to do" it according to some formula. Naturals, synthetics, films, pastes, all work and provide unique experiences that can result in stellar edges with different characteristics that suit different preferences.
I agree that you need the right basics: stones, pastes, films, etc., that are appropriate for you chosen method. Those are we documented in the threads of B&B and all across YouTube.
But, given a basic kit, I've found that the key for me is to "listen to the razor". It's a Zen thing that only comes from being quiet and mindful when honing. The sound of the razor on the stone, the appearance of the swarf amount and pattern, the feel of the razor across the length of the edge, the look of the water as the razor moves through it, that moment when the "sticktion" starts to grab the blade. All of these are telling me something about what's happening and what is needed, but I have to "listen".
So my advice on how to improve is to stop "trying to improve" and just let the razor tell you what it wants. Yes, you will have failures, but the razor is still there and ready for you to try again. All you've lost is time, and likely you learned something from those moments when you were able to "hear" what the razor, stone, and water were saying.
Good luck. You will get there.
The 12k will work fine as a finisher but I would still throw an 8 in before it. 1-3-8-12 would work ok.
Thanks for the info regarding the pastes. My understanding is that the Naniwa combo stone is from their "Economical" (now called "Lobster") line, which differs from the Super stones in that the latter are pretty much splash-and-go whereas the former need to be soaked in water before use. The 1k Super Stone is blue and the 3k is red, rather than red and ochre. I have used the similar long-soak "Traditional" Naniwas in 1.5k and 6k and found them enjoyable to use.
- Thread starter
- #25
Thanks a lot for all the replies again.
I attempted my honing last week on the National Steel razor, from bevel setting to finishing. I ended up doing 150 laps or so on each stone. With a 30x loupe I could somewhat follow the progression of the polishing, from a clearly visible scratch pattern perpendicular to the edge on the 1k, to a smooth edge at the 12k.
Unfortunately it is not there yet... After four passes, two WTG, two ATG, I only got a near-DFS. Some parts are definitely not shaving as well, especially the tip is not good enough for detailing. But boy, it was butter smooth even with mediocre lathering!
I also did a 3k - BBW - 12k progression on the Solingen. There I did not notice any improvement. It might need an extra few passes.
Practice makes perfect, so I will continue my studying tonight on the National Steel
I attempted my honing last week on the National Steel razor, from bevel setting to finishing. I ended up doing 150 laps or so on each stone. With a 30x loupe I could somewhat follow the progression of the polishing, from a clearly visible scratch pattern perpendicular to the edge on the 1k, to a smooth edge at the 12k.
Unfortunately it is not there yet... After four passes, two WTG, two ATG, I only got a near-DFS. Some parts are definitely not shaving as well, especially the tip is not good enough for detailing. But boy, it was butter smooth even with mediocre lathering!
I also did a 3k - BBW - 12k progression on the Solingen. There I did not notice any improvement. It might need an extra few passes.
True that. Having the first feeling of lapped stones and a finisher, and having more background knowledge on each step, I also realise I have a long way to learn. Sharpening is a Zen moment for me ever since I started with my kitchen knives - and so is using the knives and razors. And even the first proper attempt at razor honing taught me some valuable lessons for my kitchen knives as well.
Practice makes perfect, so I will continue my studying tonight on the National Steel
Interesting indeed. On the Naniwa website the Combination Stones are described as two 10 mm Super Stones. My packaging is similar to the image online, and the product code is "CS-510/530", implying a Combination Stone. But the colours (red/ocre) indeed fit that of the cheaper Multi-Stone and not the Super Stones, yet that has "MV-.." as product code. I'll just soak them anyway..
- Thread starter
- #26
And... after 1,5 hour I found that I need to seriously practice my X-strokes. The tip is just not getting there like the rest of the blade.
I started again with about 150 laps on the 1k until I could feel a bur all along the edge, being critical at the tip. From there on I started X-strokes on the 3k. Many, many X-strokes. I tried if it would shave. The heel shaves very well, the middle is picking up hairs like crazy, much more than I expected from a 3k stone - which is promising and rewarding! From about 2/3 to the tip, it hardly picks up anything though.
The edge does displace water on the stone nicely all along the edge. But looking at the water I have noticed that, especially with strokes away from myself, I sometimes slightly lift my hand towards the tip. Practice, practice, practice.
I started again with about 150 laps on the 1k until I could feel a bur all along the edge, being critical at the tip. From there on I started X-strokes on the 3k. Many, many X-strokes. I tried if it would shave. The heel shaves very well, the middle is picking up hairs like crazy, much more than I expected from a 3k stone - which is promising and rewarding! From about 2/3 to the tip, it hardly picks up anything though.
The edge does displace water on the stone nicely all along the edge. But looking at the water I have noticed that, especially with strokes away from myself, I sometimes slightly lift my hand towards the tip. Practice, practice, practice.
Sounds like you are getting close, and paying attention to your technique. That many laps on the coarse stone should be plenty to set the bevel. That stage is critical, everything after that is just smoothing and polishing the bevel that you cut with your first stone.
Any lifting of the spine or the blade (especially on the coarser stones) will definitely mess you up farther down the line. Lifting the spine will cause the blade angle at the edge to increase and the only way to fix it is to go back and re set the bevel at the proper angle. Blade must be flat on the stone, or at the exact same angle, every stroke, every progression. Even one or two "oops" strokes can ruin an edge if the blade angle is high enough when it happens.
How much pressure are you applying? You can get away with a little more pressure sometimes early in a progression but you should work your way toward very very light pressure at the end of each progression. Like just enough to ensure the blade is perfectly flat.
If you lay the razor flat on the hone, and press on the heel of the blade near the edge, does the toe raise at all? try both sides of the blade.
Like you said, practice practice. There is no point in going father in the progression until you get the blade the same sharpness from heel to toe. instead of so many strokes try cutting that number in half but making sure the blade is perfectly flat every stroke and making sure you have a delicate pressure for the later part of each progression and see what happens.
Since its obvious you enjoy sharpening, you will have a huge ear to ear grin when you finally nail it and achieve lightsaber sharpness from heal to toe.
Any lifting of the spine or the blade (especially on the coarser stones) will definitely mess you up farther down the line. Lifting the spine will cause the blade angle at the edge to increase and the only way to fix it is to go back and re set the bevel at the proper angle. Blade must be flat on the stone, or at the exact same angle, every stroke, every progression. Even one or two "oops" strokes can ruin an edge if the blade angle is high enough when it happens.
How much pressure are you applying? You can get away with a little more pressure sometimes early in a progression but you should work your way toward very very light pressure at the end of each progression. Like just enough to ensure the blade is perfectly flat.
If you lay the razor flat on the hone, and press on the heel of the blade near the edge, does the toe raise at all? try both sides of the blade.
Like you said, practice practice. There is no point in going father in the progression until you get the blade the same sharpness from heel to toe. instead of so many strokes try cutting that number in half but making sure the blade is perfectly flat every stroke and making sure you have a delicate pressure for the later part of each progression and see what happens.
Since its obvious you enjoy sharpening, you will have a huge ear to ear grin when you finally nail it and achieve lightsaber sharpness from heal to toe.
Where Slice of Life says this progression is doable, I do not believe in just using a finisher to make up for missing steps. The edge will always be inferior to stepping along at incremental intervals.
Many tests have been done going even from 1k - 12 or other finish hone with doing ridiculous amounts on the finisher and quite simply it is just not the same. It will shave, but not the same.
This of course is my opinion, you will have to judge this for yourself.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
If you are trying to hone with the stone resting on a bench, STOP. Hone in hand. Trust me. Honing in hand is much easier to get right early on. It might seem awkward for the first minute or two, but you will automatically correct many newbie mistakes by allowing stone and razor to align themselves rather than trying to steer the razor atop a stone resting on an unyielding surface. If you must, you can switch to bench honing after you have honed a dozen or two dozen razors, though there is absolutely no reason to do so unless you only have one arm.
Every usable edge begins with a properly set bevel. The bevel is the edge. With a good bevel, both bevel planes meet at a properly defined, tight apex. Without a good bevel, all efforts at honing are DOOMED to FAILURE.
Take a sharpie marker and paint the bevel on both sides. Hone three laps, no more. Examine the bevel. Now you can see where the razor is making contact with the stone and where it is not.
Did you lap your stones properly before use?
If you think your bevel is set, what makes you believe that it is set? Are you just guessing?
Before you do anything else, set aside a couple of weeks to read the Newbie Honing Compendium thread, what we call "The Method", and likewise all threads linked within that thread, all from beginning to end. Even if you choose to not follow The Method, read these threads. You need a good understanding of what makes a bevel and how to determine that you have a bevel, as well as how to select your tools, prepare them properly, and use them. That is a lot of reading. You won't do it in one sitting, believe me. And if you choose to use The Method, you must see it through on the first few razors following the directions exactly with absolutely no substitutions, omissions, or freestyle adventures. Experiment later. Stick to a well documented and detailed method if you hope to succeed. The Method is one such system that is proven and probably can NOT be beat by a beginner using any other system. This was the biggest raison d'etre for writing it all down. It is not my system. Well, it is my system in that I use it almost exclusively, but I am not the "inventor". Many of us experimented and agreed upon what seems to work the absolute best, especially for a beginner. In time your skill set will evolve and grow, and you can get results nearly as good as The Method using other techniques. Meanwhile The Method will make your bones for you, get your foot in the door and your hand on a razor that is honed well above common professional standards. You can find the thread among the stickies at the top of the "Honing" sub forum.
It's not playtime. This isn't recess. You are in big kid's class now and school is in session. Lock and load, take no prisoners, make NO COMPROMISES if you want a good edge. Or you can just fumble around without getting serious, and remain bewildered and possessed of a razor that will not shave. Experiment later, after you have a few stunningly sharp, precise, and smooth edges under your belt and are shaving like a boss.
Every usable edge begins with a properly set bevel. The bevel is the edge. With a good bevel, both bevel planes meet at a properly defined, tight apex. Without a good bevel, all efforts at honing are DOOMED to FAILURE.
Take a sharpie marker and paint the bevel on both sides. Hone three laps, no more. Examine the bevel. Now you can see where the razor is making contact with the stone and where it is not.
Did you lap your stones properly before use?
If you think your bevel is set, what makes you believe that it is set? Are you just guessing?
Before you do anything else, set aside a couple of weeks to read the Newbie Honing Compendium thread, what we call "The Method", and likewise all threads linked within that thread, all from beginning to end. Even if you choose to not follow The Method, read these threads. You need a good understanding of what makes a bevel and how to determine that you have a bevel, as well as how to select your tools, prepare them properly, and use them. That is a lot of reading. You won't do it in one sitting, believe me. And if you choose to use The Method, you must see it through on the first few razors following the directions exactly with absolutely no substitutions, omissions, or freestyle adventures. Experiment later. Stick to a well documented and detailed method if you hope to succeed. The Method is one such system that is proven and probably can NOT be beat by a beginner using any other system. This was the biggest raison d'etre for writing it all down. It is not my system. Well, it is my system in that I use it almost exclusively, but I am not the "inventor". Many of us experimented and agreed upon what seems to work the absolute best, especially for a beginner. In time your skill set will evolve and grow, and you can get results nearly as good as The Method using other techniques. Meanwhile The Method will make your bones for you, get your foot in the door and your hand on a razor that is honed well above common professional standards. You can find the thread among the stickies at the top of the "Honing" sub forum.
It's not playtime. This isn't recess. You are in big kid's class now and school is in session. Lock and load, take no prisoners, make NO COMPROMISES if you want a good edge. Or you can just fumble around without getting serious, and remain bewildered and possessed of a razor that will not shave. Experiment later, after you have a few stunningly sharp, precise, and smooth edges under your belt and are shaving like a boss.
- Thread starter
- #30
Haha, I like these words.
As MacGyver already noticed, I like sharpening and I knew it was going to be a steep yet very rewarding learning curve. I'll continue reading.
As for your questions:
Yes, I lapped the stones on a glass plate with 400 grit w/d sandpaper (3M) under running water, using a pencil grid as indicator.
Yes, I hold the stones in hand following the advice around here. I was used to having them on the bench for kitchen knives, but for a razor I agree it is nicer to hold the stone.
I did the bevel setting with the "Burr method" that you have posted. There seemed to be a burr from heel to toe.
I used gentle pressure at the start of bevel setting, going to just over weight-of-the-blade near the end of this. All the steps from the 3k and up were just weight of the blade.
I eventually went back to the 1k and tried to put a bit more effort (and pressure) on the toe. Even after some laps on the 1k, the heel and mid section are still picking up hairs like crazy. Just the 1/3rd towards the toe is not doing much.
I will test this first, I assume you mean to test if the blade is warped? Together with that I'll try Slash McCoy's tip of marking the bevel. Combined these are solid tips to see what is going on.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
It is a very good diagnostic, seeing if the blade rocks. Often with a slightly smiling edge a beginner will hone it straight but because it is curved, part of the blade gets no love from the hone. You end up with a razor with honed heel and mid body but unhoned toe, or vice versa. This happens mostly when bench honing. With experience this is not a problem but it is one of many newbie mistakes that honing in hand largely eliminates. When honing a smiling blade, one uses a rolling stroke. You start the stroke with the heel solidly on the hone and lift the heel up slightly through the stroke so the area of contact shifts along the edge to the toe. This is how experienced honers hone a smiling edge, generally speaking. The problem with a beginner doing this is that they tend to exaggerate the roll which increases the smile, or just tapers the nose, due to excessive emphasis and wear on the nose. This is the cause of all those razors out there with the last 3/4" or so of the blade having a wild taper. When honing in hand the hone has a slight tendency to follow the smile. Instead of the razor rolling up by its shank, the hone rocks slightly. You can consciously encourage this, to very good results.
You can, of course, keep honing straight. (In hand, of course.) Apply your pressure very slightly forward. IOW, lift up a bit on the shank so that more steel is removed further out. Don't attack the nose. Let it happen. Don't try to become one with the razor. Let the razor become one with the stone. You should see the sharpie test gradually show less and less sharpie ink remaining on the bevel, the clean part slowly growing outward toward the toe. Eventually the edge catches up with the toe and you get your burr from end to end. If only the last 1/4" or so is not sharp, don't lose any sleep over that. Consciously making a supreme effort to hone that tip of the toe will make it worse, and you don't need that last tiny fraction of an inch to shave. In fact many shavers deliberately dull the very point of the razor to help eliminate toe dig cuts. A few guys need that sharp toe for edging around beards and such but for the rest of us, more joy is found in freedom from toe honing than a perfectly sharp toe. Same with the heel of some shoulderless razors.
The good thing about a steep learning curve is you improve so quickly!
My big recommendation is to stay curious and engaged, many people seem to improve rapidly to a point and then just lose interest in any other progress or exploration and disappear. In my mind it’s really worth learning to shave this way and worth experimenting with a few different types of edges.
My big recommendation is to stay curious and engaged, many people seem to improve rapidly to a point and then just lose interest in any other progress or exploration and disappear. In my mind it’s really worth learning to shave this way and worth experimenting with a few different types of edges.
- Thread starter
- #33
.. and that's exactly my use-case. So I'm making it a bit harder on myself, I see that.
I think this would be a second test: checking whether or not it is a smiling edge.
I think what MacGyver meant is checking if the blade is warped along the edge. Or maybe I misunderstood, but it might anyway be a good test too.
I'm in any case looking forward to the sharpie-test soon.
“Smiling” means when you hold the blade horizontally out in front of you with the edge hanging down, the edge has a gentle curve like a smile where the middle protrudes further from the spine than the heel or toe.
Most current users and all old timers seem to agree that a slight smile is the perfect geometry in use, but too much smiling means you may need some honing skills to be sure your touch the entire edge on every stroke.
- Thread starter
- #35
I did the flatness of the blade and the straightness of the edge yesterday, and I think it is clear why it's not honing that nicely.
With a glass plate I first checked for any warps along the edge and it is perfectly flat. Then I lifted the edge perpendicular to the glass and shone a light behind it. The edge is not smiling, but slightly 'w'-shaped. The heel touches nicely, then somewhat further towards the middle the light protrudes under the edge. The next section is in contact with the glass again, and at the tip it curves upwards. It's only 0.5 mm or less, but enough to see.
I did not try the sharpie-test yet. But I guess I need to carefully "breadknife" the edge to start with a straight edge again. Maybe not as aggressive as fully perpendicular to the stone, but at a 45 deg. angle?
With a glass plate I first checked for any warps along the edge and it is perfectly flat. Then I lifted the edge perpendicular to the glass and shone a light behind it. The edge is not smiling, but slightly 'w'-shaped. The heel touches nicely, then somewhat further towards the middle the light protrudes under the edge. The next section is in contact with the glass again, and at the tip it curves upwards. It's only 0.5 mm or less, but enough to see.
I did not try the sharpie-test yet. But I guess I need to carefully "breadknife" the edge to start with a straight edge again. Maybe not as aggressive as fully perpendicular to the stone, but at a 45 deg. angle?
- Thread starter
- #36
And last night I did the sharpie-test. After 3 strokes on the 1k stone a shiny edge appeared from heel to toe. It almost seemed like the heel was even getting less contact with the stone!
From there on I tried putting some more time on the toe, paying a lot of attention to keeping the blade flat. The pulling strokes are nice I think; I noticed though that I tend to either slightly lift the toe, or dig it stronger in the stone near the end of the movement.
With very careful X-strokes it felt the toe was improving, so I continued all the way to finishing on the 12k. The heel is shaving like mad, the middle very good, the toe seems good enough. Tomorrow morning is the real test.
I would still like to get the toe better.. Any tips?
From there on I tried putting some more time on the toe, paying a lot of attention to keeping the blade flat. The pulling strokes are nice I think; I noticed though that I tend to either slightly lift the toe, or dig it stronger in the stone near the end of the movement.
With very careful X-strokes it felt the toe was improving, so I continued all the way to finishing on the 12k. The heel is shaving like mad, the middle very good, the toe seems good enough. Tomorrow morning is the real test.
I would still like to get the toe better.. Any tips?
I wouldn't be surprised if the blade has a little warp, wave, or twist even if it passes the rock test. It's not uncommon. If the side of the edge is hitting multiple spots like that it can feel stable and flat even if its not perfectly straight. This causes the edge to press into the stone more at certain points causing more material to be removed there, and the up and down edge pattern you are seeing. We are talking a few thousands of an inch here and can be hard to see with the eye, especially laying on something translucent.
You can try grinding the edge true again(I wouldn't quite yet) and resetting the bevel like you said but just be aware the pattern may return if there are blade irregularities that aren't taken into consideration. The width of the bevel is a good indicator of slight warpage. If the bevel you sharpened has a thick and thin appearance then the larger bevel widths indicate where the blade is higher at that spot, on that side. The pattern should be opposite on the other side of the blade if its not perfectly true. If the wide bevels or narrow bevels are at the same spots on each side, it indicates an issue with the width or thickness of the blade or spine instead of warpage. A perfect blade will have a very uniform bevel width with no variation from heel to toe on both sides. Don't get discouraged if your blade isn't perfect though...
Do the parts of the blade that feel sharpest correspond to the areas that were touching the glass? or the recessed portions where there was a gap? If the parts that were touching glass were the sharper ones then just keep honing on a coarse stone and it may straighten out on its own because you are probably removing material mostly from those wider areas. If the sharp parts are on the shorter areas that weren't touching then you have probably been removing the material from there already and need to straighten the edge and/or figure out whats going on with the geometry before proceeding. It could have issues, or maybe just poorly honed in the past. I don't mind a slight smile, but frowns and wavy edges are more likely to affect shave quality negatively.
It's good to "get to know" your blades like you are though. Each style and example have their own traits, personalities, and quirks. I always spend a few minutes just inspecting a newly acquired blade to see what king of special attention it might need. Some blades are just messed up, some are nearly perfect, but many fall somewhere in between. Some of my best/favorite shavers fall short of perfection in form, and took a little more effort to hone, but make up for it with shave quality in the end. And usually you can get around small and even moderate flaws with some creativity, experience, and knowing what to look for when honing. You just need to figure out whats going on so you can address it with the right combo of pressure, torque, and angle variations.
Also, for sharpie. I would freshly lap a higher grit (finer) stone and test on that. The larger grit on coarser stones can slough of and scrub the sharpie giving a false pass. Make sure both sides of the blade look the same. Depending on the stone it can take very little to make the stone not flat. Frequent lapping of soft stones is a must.
If you are in fact getting even contact all the way on both sides then its probably just a matter honing your honing Sounds like you get a little better results and a little better feel for what the blade is doing each time so just keep at it. If you think its pretty good, see how it shaves!
You can try grinding the edge true again(I wouldn't quite yet) and resetting the bevel like you said but just be aware the pattern may return if there are blade irregularities that aren't taken into consideration. The width of the bevel is a good indicator of slight warpage. If the bevel you sharpened has a thick and thin appearance then the larger bevel widths indicate where the blade is higher at that spot, on that side. The pattern should be opposite on the other side of the blade if its not perfectly true. If the wide bevels or narrow bevels are at the same spots on each side, it indicates an issue with the width or thickness of the blade or spine instead of warpage. A perfect blade will have a very uniform bevel width with no variation from heel to toe on both sides. Don't get discouraged if your blade isn't perfect though...
Do the parts of the blade that feel sharpest correspond to the areas that were touching the glass? or the recessed portions where there was a gap? If the parts that were touching glass were the sharper ones then just keep honing on a coarse stone and it may straighten out on its own because you are probably removing material mostly from those wider areas. If the sharp parts are on the shorter areas that weren't touching then you have probably been removing the material from there already and need to straighten the edge and/or figure out whats going on with the geometry before proceeding. It could have issues, or maybe just poorly honed in the past. I don't mind a slight smile, but frowns and wavy edges are more likely to affect shave quality negatively.
It's good to "get to know" your blades like you are though. Each style and example have their own traits, personalities, and quirks. I always spend a few minutes just inspecting a newly acquired blade to see what king of special attention it might need. Some blades are just messed up, some are nearly perfect, but many fall somewhere in between. Some of my best/favorite shavers fall short of perfection in form, and took a little more effort to hone, but make up for it with shave quality in the end. And usually you can get around small and even moderate flaws with some creativity, experience, and knowing what to look for when honing. You just need to figure out whats going on so you can address it with the right combo of pressure, torque, and angle variations.
Also, for sharpie. I would freshly lap a higher grit (finer) stone and test on that. The larger grit on coarser stones can slough of and scrub the sharpie giving a false pass. Make sure both sides of the blade look the same. Depending on the stone it can take very little to make the stone not flat. Frequent lapping of soft stones is a must.
If you are in fact getting even contact all the way on both sides then its probably just a matter honing your honing
Sounds like you get a little better results and a little better feel for what the blade is doing each time so just keep at it. If you think its pretty good, see how it shaves!- Thread starter
- #38
Thanks for the elaborate reply, MacGyver.
After the last edge test and honing I did do a shave test. It wasn't as refined as before, bit of burn on the neck after ATG. I should have spend more time on the BBW and 12k.
In any case, I do have some feedback on the blade now which fits nicely to your comments.
As for grinding the edge true, best to breadknife it (albeit at a lower angle), or to spend a lot of time on the 1k? I also have a small, lower quality 6-800 grit stone.
What I see now on the blade is that the edge is slightly less wide (or high) at the first 2 cm of the heel. From there on it forms a pretty much straight line to the toe.
After the last edge test and honing I did do a shave test. It wasn't as refined as before, bit of burn on the neck after ATG. I should have spend more time on the BBW and 12k.
In any case, I do have some feedback on the blade now which fits nicely to your comments.
Yes, actually. As described the blade has a 'w'-wave shape to it. The heel is in contact with the glass, small gap, the upper-mid section is in contact again and toe points upwards again. The heel is also the best-shaving part of the blade, the lower-mid is okay, the upper-mid is better again, and the toe is difficult.
As for grinding the edge true, best to breadknife it (albeit at a lower angle), or to spend a lot of time on the 1k? I also have a small, lower quality 6-800 grit stone.
Good tip, I will try it on my 3k or bbw first. Would you consider the Naniwa 1/3k combo and 12k soft stones? I'd say the BBW definitely not.
How would I assess this without a microscope? I would say that, using the sharpie, the amount of ink removed is an indicator. The line of blank metal should be at constant width (or height?) from heel to toe.
What I see now on the blade is that the edge is slightly less wide (or high) at the first 2 cm of the heel. From there on it forms a pretty much straight line to the toe.
Ok,great. Thats the kind of info I was looking for. I suspect that you actually did a pretty good honing job. The problem is that those areas that didn't touch the glass aren't making as good of contact with the stone either. They are the dull spots.
The fact that your bevel looks even suggests there may not be significant warpage. If you get the light to hit the blade right, even a 50% difference in bevel size is obvious with the naked eye. If the bevel looks uniform, the blade is probably close. Magnification would definitely help in making that determination though. Extra scrutiny of the dull areas will be required.
The bevel being thinner at the heel is usually due to shoulder interference, spine thickening above the heel, or just normal heel curve. These can be fixed but for now, an easy work around is a to lead the stroke with the heel(or toe lift for a curve). Since the heel is sharp anyway its not a big deal for now. It's not the problem.
What has probably happened is that someone has honed it on a narrow stone, honed it on a stone thats not flat, or hone it with two hands with too much finger pressure on those shorter areas. In all of those cases its possible to get a razor sharp, but it would be hard to maintain or hone on a stone thats actually flat.
I believe on a coarse stone the blade will even out and the long spots will be cut down to the short spots. If you do intentionally dull or grind the edge with out the spine touching, pay special attention to keeping the edge parallel with the spine. Its easy to skew them. Also remember that any material you remove from the edge without also removing some from the spine will more rapidly change bevel angle. Depending on your current angle, this may or may not be a significant factor. You may want to take some measurements and calculate your bevel angle before deciding. With the amount of material you need to remove (.5-1mm), when I say coarse, I mean coarse. I think the reason you are still having issues with it is simply because 1K is just too fine to remove that much quickly. You don't need a new stone, sandpaper on your stone or flat surface will work fine. 320 or coarser preferably. When the edge is straight , sharp, and perfect jump to the 1K. Not before. Any attempt to progress to finer grits when the edge is still wavy will give unsatisfactory results. You've already shown that you can bring those wider areas of the blade from dull to shave ready. Once you get the edge evened out I think you will be in good shape.
"MY" technique with sharpie is to leave some marker if possible. Sometimes I just do as little as a half or one very light stroke on a smooth flat stone. Seeing that the marker is completely removed after a few stokes tells you a little bit, but seeing where the marker gets removed first, and where the marker remains after a single stroke or two gives you a little more detail. Armed with these details you will see how different strokes effect the way the blade contacts the stone. Sharpie is also helpful to show whether you are honing all the way to the apex but in both cases you need magnification to get the details. Blue works better than black for me.
I think in your case, under magnification, you would see that the sharper areas are the first to have the sharpie removed and you would still see some remaining way down next to the apex on the duller areas. It may be just a thin strip, but I think it will be there on one or both sides.
Of course, I might be way off without actually seeing the razor. From the info you've given though I think you should be able to get it shaving well. Tackling issues like this on your first razor will make honing a breeze on a straighter edge. Bringing a blade like that back to a wonderful "shave ready" condition is a huge confidence booster.
The fact that your bevel looks even suggests there may not be significant warpage. If you get the light to hit the blade right, even a 50% difference in bevel size is obvious with the naked eye. If the bevel looks uniform, the blade is probably close. Magnification would definitely help in making that determination though. Extra scrutiny of the dull areas will be required.
The bevel being thinner at the heel is usually due to shoulder interference, spine thickening above the heel, or just normal heel curve. These can be fixed but for now, an easy work around is a to lead the stroke with the heel(or toe lift for a curve). Since the heel is sharp anyway its not a big deal for now. It's not the problem.
What has probably happened is that someone has honed it on a narrow stone, honed it on a stone thats not flat, or hone it with two hands with too much finger pressure on those shorter areas. In all of those cases its possible to get a razor sharp, but it would be hard to maintain or hone on a stone thats actually flat.
I believe on a coarse stone the blade will even out and the long spots will be cut down to the short spots. If you do intentionally dull or grind the edge with out the spine touching, pay special attention to keeping the edge parallel with the spine. Its easy to skew them. Also remember that any material you remove from the edge without also removing some from the spine will more rapidly change bevel angle. Depending on your current angle, this may or may not be a significant factor. You may want to take some measurements and calculate your bevel angle before deciding. With the amount of material you need to remove (.5-1mm), when I say coarse, I mean coarse. I think the reason you are still having issues with it is simply because 1K is just too fine to remove that much quickly. You don't need a new stone, sandpaper on your stone or flat surface will work fine. 320 or coarser preferably. When the edge is straight , sharp, and perfect jump to the 1K. Not before. Any attempt to progress to finer grits when the edge is still wavy will give unsatisfactory results. You've already shown that you can bring those wider areas of the blade from dull to shave ready. Once you get the edge evened out I think you will be in good shape.
"MY" technique with sharpie is to leave some marker if possible. Sometimes I just do as little as a half or one very light stroke on a smooth flat stone. Seeing that the marker is completely removed after a few stokes tells you a little bit, but seeing where the marker gets removed first, and where the marker remains after a single stroke or two gives you a little more detail. Armed with these details you will see how different strokes effect the way the blade contacts the stone. Sharpie is also helpful to show whether you are honing all the way to the apex but in both cases you need magnification to get the details. Blue works better than black for me.
I think in your case, under magnification, you would see that the sharper areas are the first to have the sharpie removed and you would still see some remaining way down next to the apex on the duller areas. It may be just a thin strip, but I think it will be there on one or both sides.
Of course, I might be way off without actually seeing the razor. From the info you've given though I think you should be able to get it shaving well. Tackling issues like this on your first razor will make honing a breeze on a straighter edge. Bringing a blade like that back to a wonderful "shave ready" condition is a huge confidence booster.
3k JIS is not far off a finisher. 4.3 micron if memory serves. 1-2 micron is a typical finisher. I think Nani 12k is 1.5 or so.
