Advice on improving my honing

[porkpiehat]

Hi all,

First post on the forum! And straight off asking for some advice on what I think is a complicated matter: honing my straights.

I have two straights that I use for detailing my beard (neck- and cheek-line). I used to do that with a shavette (with halved DE blades), until some friends gave me my first straight razor about two years ago. Not long after, I decided to buy another one from an antique store to see if I could restore it. Since I have been sharpening my kitchen knives and chisels for some years, I felt I could do the upkeep on my straights myself and restoring one would be a nice challenge. Yet lately I feel that both my straights are lacking behind and don't provide a smooth shave anymore even after honing.

My straights are probably not the best quality, but they should (and did) perform better than currently. See the picture: it's a no-name Solingen steel (50-60€ from a drug store) and a vintage Silver National Steel.
For daily upkeep I have a hanging stop and balsa strop from Whipped Dog. For honing I have an Ardennes Coticule Belgian Blue stone (like this) with slurry stone, and a Naniwa 1000/3000 combination stone (like this).

The vintage National I dulled on a glass bottle before attempting to remove the pitting on the blade (no pitting on the edge luckily) by hand with a progression of 600-1000-1200 grid sandpaper. After that I set the bevel using the 1000 grit stone with the burr-method, polished with the 3000 side, and then moved to the one stone honing method as explained in this probably well-known video:

I managed to get it to an acceptable shaving state with this procedure already on my second attempt - and I was quite proud of this!
For the no-name Solingen I only ever use the one stone method. I finish with the balsa strop, and do about 30-40 laps on the leather strop before each shave.

But as said, lately I'm not getting them any better than a just-acceptable sharpness. The shaves are not as smooth anymore, more tugging and as result irritation, with the same soap, brush and lathering technique. Or maybe my expectations have grown as I get more experienced... But I feel I'm definitely not getting the maximum performance out of these blades.

I'm hoping you guys have some tips for me!

 

[Slash McCoy]

How serious do you want to get about this?

At a minimum, you need a proper finisher. A 12k Naniwa would work nicely. Remember that this, like ALL STONES, must be lapped when you get it, and lapped periodically thereafter. A 12k Nanny is a quite adequate finisher for most shavers. It is possible to make it outperform itself, using the lather trick. I won't write a book about that until you actually have a Nanny12k in hand.

Another very good option for a beginner is 1u (one micron) lapping film on a 12" x 3" x 3/4" or 1" block of acrylic from TAP Plastics. No thinner than that. No smaller than that. Proper plain back lapping film in full size sheets, not lapping paper, polishing paper, polishing film, etc. You cut it into thirds longways and stick it to the acrylic with water. Tadah. You have about a 13k or 14k finishing hone that is absolutely flat and will always remain flat, with a disposable surface... the film, which is good for about a dozen razors. And you still have two more pieces of film from just that first sheet. So film is cheap, it is effective, and it is easy to learn with very few surprises.

You could also reach nearly that stage with a nice Jnat and a couple of good Nagura. This is not for the faint of heart. Jnats are a serious rabbit hole to fall into and best left until you master the basics of honing. I only mention them because they and a few other natural stones can work, with knowledge, experience, aptitude, and skill. There are also other synthetic options such as Shapton but of all the serious synthetic finishing stones, the Naniwa 12k is the best value for cost vs effectiveness. Lapping film is a good bit better though, IMHO. So there are your practical options for a finisher.

Now if you want to up your game some more, first of all if you have green CrOx paste smeared all over your balsa and it is not stabilized and it is less than 12" long and 3" wide, toss it if you want to get medieval on that edge. Remember the piece of acrylic I told you to get for the lapping film? Get three more just like it. Four more, actually. I will get back to the fourth one in a minute but the three are for making GOOD balsa strops. Acrylic because it is light enough to hold in hand and trust me, you want to do this in hand, not resting on a bench or table. I will tell you right now, if you want to get into this specialized treatment that we call The Method, you must do as I say, not as you feel, if you want best possible results. If you don't care about best possible results, then stop with the 12k or the film and don't waste your time or money chasing the dragon. You can catch that dragon right away, with no long learning period, but only if you do this thing right. If you want to ask "but can I use THIS instead? How about if I do it THAT way?" then you are doomed. At least as far as achieving a method edge goes.

Let's be perfectly clear about one thing. A LOT of tools and techniques work. It is simply a matter of degree. Your coticule works. Generations of shavers shaved right off of coticules. A barber hone works. A well lapped brick works. But how well do you want it to work? There is a huge spectrum of methods and tools and results that "work". If you want to use THE Method, then I will say this now... you can't, this early in your honing journey, expect anything at all to work better than precisely and without failure or hesitation or substitution or omission or freestyling, following The Method, if you want a Method edge. There is no point in asking if this or that will work in conjunction with The Method. It probably WILL work. It probably will NOT work as part of The Method to give you a full bore Method Edge.

Now there are converging paths leading up to the end stages but those paths should find a waypoint of either 12k or better synthetic stone edge, or a 1u film edge. From there, the paths merge into one. From there, the next waypoint is the lapped balsa strop, backed with a non warping substrate light enough and thick enough to use in hand, treated with .5u diamond paste with ZERO excess. Everyone puts too much. If it looks like enough, you have 10x or more too much. The idea is to embed the abrasive particles up to their necks in the grain of the very flat and smooth balsa so they cut much more shallow than they have any right to cut by virtue of their grit rating. This stropping on the balsa is usually done in the vertical, end-up position so that the weight of the razor does not bear on the balsa. This reduces scratch depth even more. Each stage of the honing pipeline is tasked with the complete eradication of the coarser scratches left by the previous stage, replacing them entirely with its own finer scratches. The finer you end up, assuming you have a good bevel, the sharper the edge. After the .5u comes the .25u, with a good cleaning in between stages always, so as not to contaminate the finer grit with even one particle from the coarser grit. The .5u and .25u can create what most shavers regard as a harsh shave. But the next and final stage, the .1u stage, makes it all come together with ultimate sharpness and comfort, if you modify your shave technique slightly.

So there you have it. It is a matter of degree. How sharp do you want it? Your razor, your face. If you are interested in The Method, see this thread. Read it beginning to end. All the threads linked within that thread, read from beginning to end, also. That's a lot of reading. But all your questions are answered in there. Many newbies' case histories are in there. And The Method has evolved a bit over the years as new things are tried and found to improve the experience. So you can't just read the first 100 posts and call it good.

Oh I almost forgot... now you must remember that setting a bevel is something you only need to do once while you own a razor. Buying a stone for bevel setting, and buying more coarser stones for edge repair prior to the bevel setting stage, is an expense that for many shavers does not really have a good payoff. It is cheaper, if you only have a few razors, to take that fourth (well, fifth) block of acrylic and use it as your bevel setter and edge repair hone. Fold and tear a whole sheet of wet/dry sandpaper into thirds lengthwise. LIGHTLY spray a little 3M or Loctite spray adhesive on the back. Carefully stick it to the acrylic, ensuring it goes on tight and flat with zero lint, dust, hair, bubbles, etc under it. Now you have a hone, perfectly flat, (flat enough for us, anyway) with a disposable surface layer of whatever grit you need. Want 120 grit to do the heavy lifting on a Gold Dollar or a vintage with a huge chip in the edge? No problem. Want 2k for setting the bevel on a beautiful singing extra full hollow? You got it. Of course, those coarse stones can also be used for sharpening your pocketknives, kitchen knives, and other edged tools, but me, I prefer to use sandpaper.

Oh, I see you already have a 1k stone. If it is flat enough and of decent quality, by all means, use it if you want. And the 3k will save a lot of wear on your coti.

Check your strop for cupping. And even if it is wide enough to carry the whole blade, you should use a bit of an x stroke. You might not be getting your razor properly stropped. That would explain slowly losing your edge even while continuing to use the same tools.

 

[lightfoot]

I think you’re good with the 1k/3k Naniwa. However the BBW stone you’re using isn’t really known or recommended as a pre-finishing stone. But I do believe a select grade Coticule might be your missing link. You could further refine the edge with a light application of some red iron oxide paste.
As for the use of slurry on a Coticule, I favor several sessions on light slurry & dilution rather than one long dulicot process starting with heavy slurry.
Hope this helps

 

[Seveneighth]

The video demonstrates a coticule but you linked to a Belgian Blue. The technique is a little different. I have got a shavable edge of a Blue but nothing like a coticule edge.

For best coticule technique look for videos by @gary haywood or posts by @Disburden

Slash's post above is extremely comprehensive and worth following. You will find it hard to find as succinct and well described guide in a single post elsewhere.

Be careful buying coticules from knives and tools - some of their stones are more appropriate for knife honing. If you are in Europe take a look at Beornidas on Etsy. If you are in the US try The Superior Shave.

 

[stone and strop]

Hi all,

First post on the forum! And straight off asking for some advice on what I think is a complicated matter: honing my straights.

I have two straights that I use for detailing my beard (neck- and cheek-line). I used to do that with a shavette (with halved DE blades), until some friends gave me my first straight razor about two years ago. Not long after, I decided to buy another one from an antique store to see if I could restore it. Since I have been sharpening my kitchen knives and chisels for some years, I felt I could do the upkeep on my straights myself and restoring one would be a nice challenge. Yet lately I feel that both my straights are lacking behind and don't provide a smooth shave anymore even after honing.

My straights are probably not the best quality, but they should (and did) perform better than currently. See the picture: it's a no-name Solingen steel (50-60€ from a drug store) and a vintage Silver National Steel.
For daily upkeep I have a hanging stop and balsa strop from Whipped Dog. For honing I have an Ardennes Coticule Belgian Blue stone (like this) with slurry stone, and a Naniwa 1000/3000 combination stone (like this).

View attachment 1034957

The vintage National I dulled on a glass bottle before attempting to remove the pitting on the blade (no pitting on the edge luckily) by hand with a progression of 600-1000-1200 grid sandpaper. After that I set the bevel using the 1000 grit stone with the burr-method, polished with the 3000 side, and then moved to the one stone honing method as explained in this probably well-known video:

I managed to get it to an acceptable shaving state with this procedure already on my second attempt - and I was quite proud of this!
For the no-name Solingen I only ever use the one stone method. I finish with the balsa strop, and do about 30-40 laps on the leather strop before each shave.

But as said, lately I'm not getting them any better than a just-acceptable sharpness. The shaves are not as smooth anymore, more tugging and as result irritation, with the same soap, brush and lathering technique. Or maybe my expectations have grown as I get more experienced... But I feel I'm definitely not getting the maximum performance out of these blades.

I'm hoping you guys have some tips for me!

As said, finishing on Belgian blue will not leave you will a very satisfying edge.
I would look into a better finisher, at the very least a yellow coticule.
Even an 8k synthetic (Naniwa) will greatly improve what you are using now and is what I would recommend for now. Jumping from 3k to 12 is big jump. An 8k is invaluable whether you decide to go the next step be it natural or synthetic.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Oh, I didn't see that you have a BBS... I thought you had a regular yellow coticule. Like they said, it is probably kind of meh for upper midrange honing, and I wouldn't place too much faith in it. So maybe, if you want to go with stones, get an 8k Naniwa and a 12k. You can jump from 3k to 8k if you really put some time in on the 8k. Then you have a 1k, 3k, 8k, 12k progression. Most honers would regard that as a pretty full kit but actually for rescueing really whack razors you will definitely want something coarser than the 1k to do the heavy lifting. A diamond plate would work. Sandpaper. Or just about any 300 or 400 grit synthetic stone. The Naniwa 220 (I think) grit would work, even.

Or you can go from your 3k Naniwa to 3u film and then the 1u film, which is my actual recommendation. Save a few bucks, get more consistent results. And thence to the balsa for that science fiction sharp edge.

 

[Lightcs1776]

Welcome to the forums. I am fairly new at honing, so I will let others answer your questions rather than giving bad advice.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[*stefan*]

Hi all,

First post on the forum! And straight off asking for some advice on what I think is a complicated matter: honing my straights.

I have two straights that I use for detailing my beard (neck- and cheek-line). I used to do that with a shavette (with halved DE blades), until some friends gave me my first straight razor about two years ago. Not long after, I decided to buy another one from an antique store to see if I could restore it. Since I have been sharpening my kitchen knives and chisels for some years, I felt I could do the upkeep on my straights myself and restoring one would be a nice challenge. Yet lately I feel that both my straights are lacking behind and don't provide a smooth shave anymore even after honing.

My straights are probably not the best quality, but they should (and did) perform better than currently. See the picture: it's a no-name Solingen steel (50-60€ from a drug store) and a vintage Silver National Steel.
For daily upkeep I have a hanging stop and balsa strop from Whipped Dog. For honing I have an Ardennes Coticule Belgian Blue stone (like this) with slurry stone, and a Naniwa 1000/3000 combination stone (like this).

View attachment 1034957

The vintage National I dulled on a glass bottle before attempting to remove the pitting on the blade (no pitting on the edge luckily) by hand with a progression of 600-1000-1200 grid sandpaper. After that I set the bevel using the 1000 grit stone with the burr-method, polished with the 3000 side, and then moved to the one stone honing method as explained in this probably well-known video:

I managed to get it to an acceptable shaving state with this procedure already on my second attempt - and I was quite proud of this!
For the no-name Solingen I only ever use the one stone method. I finish with the balsa strop, and do about 30-40 laps on the leather strop before each shave.

But as said, lately I'm not getting them any better than a just-acceptable sharpness. The shaves are not as smooth anymore, more tugging and as result irritation, with the same soap, brush and lathering technique. Or maybe my expectations have grown as I get more experienced... But I feel I'm definitely not getting the maximum performance out of these blades.

I'm hoping you guys have some tips for me!

You have got many good advices above.
However you write that you did manage better in the beginning than lately.

This is to me an indication something need to be fixed.
I would look for:
Better flattening of the stone/hone.
Smooth the edged on the stone/hone.
Use tree topping test to see that sharpness improve during honing stage.
See how the blade contacts the strop. Sometime hanging strops change shape a bit, especially
in spring/autumn when humidity change in air. If the strops forms like an upward turned “u” in section it needs to be shaped back.

If this do not help test reset the bevel on one razor. Carefully follow sharpness progress during honing stage.

When you are back on track test to end honing on running water on the coti, after using slurry.
And adding other options as suggested.

 

[Namkcakram]

A BBW can finish an edge to full shaving level, but it’s usually a slower and more temperamental process than any normal yellow Coticule IME.

Some BBW seems to barely cut at all without some slurry, so that in and of itself can be the limit to how sharp it can practically achieve. Sometimes some witchcraft like spine leading strokes or less than blade weight exaggerated>45* X strokes can make a truly polished edge... but honestly by the time you figure it all out for your particular stone and hone a few razors to satisfactory level, you’d be money ahead to get a real Coticule from a reputable seller and not work so hard. The speed difference alone between an average Coticule and an average BBW makes it worth it IMO.

 

[porkpiehat]

Thanks for the helpful and elaborate replies. I took me some time to read and process everything.
Also found some additional information in this thread.

I am happy to read that none of you mark the blades as the limiting factor. From the great deal of tips on upping my honing game, I distilled three major tips.
1) Lapping my stones: also the Belgian Blue? I'll look for a piece of hardened glass, granite or block of PMMA and some 320-400 grit sandpaper for this.
2) It seems unanimous that I need to get a Naniwa 12k finishing stone (and lap it before use). Whether I will follow The Method or not, starting point is a 12k finished blade. The jump from 3k to 12k is too big. Could I use my belgian blue to bridge the gap, instead of having to purchase the additional 8k? It would be a waste not to use the belgian blue anymore, and it would save quite some on the investment now.
3) Learn to test the edge during honing progressions (other than shaving bald patches on my arm).

Oh, I didn't see that you have a BBS... I thought you had a regular yellow coticule.

Indeed, unfortunately. At the time I did not know about the difference between Coticule Belgian Blue and Coticule Selected. If only I had known, I would have gotten a nice yellow coti for a few euro's extra.. But that's life.
At this point I'd better first invest my money in a good synthetic finishing stone to get a good shave. Maybe I'll dive into the rabbit hole of natural stones just for fun at some point.

 

[porkpiehat]

In addition to this: I use the method from the video linked above on my Belgian Blue. Most of the steps are only 20 or so laps on the stone, whereas here on the forums I read plenty of people doing 60, 100 or even more laps - especially for finishing.

Maybe the better question than "should I do more laps" is: how can I evaluate how many laps I would need?

Any comments also on my suggested progression of 1k - 3k - belgian blue - 12k?

 

[stone and strop]

In addition to this: I use the method from the video linked above on my Belgian Blue. Most of the steps are only 20 or so laps on the stone, whereas here on the forums I read plenty of people doing 60, 100 or even more laps - especially for finishing.

Maybe the better question than "should I do more laps" is: how can I evaluate how many laps I would need?

Any comments also on my suggested progression of 1k - 3k - belgian blue - 12k?

Still a big jump.
BBW is considered around a 4-5k edge.
Buy an 8k and don't bother with the Blue.

 

[kcb5150]

You just need to stop counting laps altogether and learn to look and feel what is going on at each stage.

 

[bluesman 7]

You just need to stop counting laps altogether and learn to look and feel what is going on at each stage.

^^^^^ This!

 

[SliceOfLife]

I would argue that a Hard arkansas never needs lapped after being properly flattened... but maybe I'm just nitpicking.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I would argue that a Hard arkansas never needs lapped after being properly flattened... but maybe I'm just nitpicking.

Not for a long time,anyway. They wear slowwwwwwly.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Since I like a traditional Suehiro 1k/3k combo for bevel-setting followed by a yellow coticule used with water only (the 3k synth takes the place of slurries), I've always been curious about the Naniwa version. Assuming that the two combo stones are analogous, or equivalent, then I would echo what the others have said relative to a BBW being redundant and therefore unnecessary. 1k synth > 3k synth > coticule with water > Welsh purple slate used with water (no slurry) or sewing machine oil usually gets me there.

You say that your edge is falling off. Have you taken it to the balsa strop for a "touch-up" followed by a return to plain leather stropping? And what is the balsa strop pasted with?

 

[porkpiehat]

You just need to stop counting laps altogether and learn to look and feel what is going on at each stage.

Exactly! Hence my question, "how can I evaluate..". Both razors pass the HHT after stropping and can shave, but not too comfortable.
I'm trying to get familiar with the various tests, especially the thumb pad test. Since I probably never got a "proper" edge on my razors, it will take me some time to learn to evaluate this.
Ballpark: after a 3k stone it should treetop?

Still a big jump.
BBW is considered around a 4-5k edge.
Buy an 8k and don't bother with the Blue.

Unfortunately I read that too late. The 12k Naniwa just arrived (good deal for 60€) and I cannot return it anymore. I'm not keen on spending another 50-60€.

Since I like a traditional Suehiro 1k/3k combo for bevel-setting followed by a yellow coticule used with water only (the 3k synth takes the place of slurries), I've always been curious about the Naniwa version.
You say that your edge is falling off. Have you taken it to the balsa strop for a "touch-up" followed by a return to plain leather stropping? And what is the balsa strop pasted with?

The Naniwa Combination Stone is two 10mm Super Stones glued together. Pretty good deal actually. I have no experience with other stones, so can't tell you how it holds up.
The Balsa strop is from Whipped Dog (link). It has 0.3 micron chromium oxide and 0.1 micron iron oxide.


The Sollingen razor is actually not too bad, it's mainly the "restored" Silver National that is not too comfortable. Reading more on proper bevel setting etc., I am quite sure that I did not do that right back then. Anything onward is hopeless without a good bevel.
This weekend I will attempt to fix that on the Silver National. I got some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper (3M) and a glass plate to first lap my stones. Set the bevel using Slash's Burr Method on the 1k. Continue to 3k, followed by the Belgian Blue. That should give a shaveable edge like before. Then lots of finishing on 12k Naniwa.

 

[kcb5150]

Undercut of water across the edge is one tell. How the edge is feeling as you go is another. Do you feel it smoothing out to a point before it stalls and you don't feel like you are progressing any more? Not all synths are terribly communicative that way but sone aren't bad. One tell that isn't an absolute imo but may be a clue with synths is undercooked edges at any given grit tend to give off more swarf than you would anticipate on the next increment assuming small jumps. Looking with a nice quality loupe is a big help. Just watching the scratch patterns develop. You don't need to be testing treetopping at 3k, you just need to make sure the bevel is set and be mindful during refinement stages. Nice even undercut of water across the edge both sides, edge appears straight under a loupe, should shave arm hair across the whole edge effortlessly at bevel stage. For thumb pad, just wet your thumb and the edge should feel grabby across the entire thing. You don't run your fingers across it or anything obviously, but the feeling of a set bevel is really obvious. Obvious to the level of something like raising a burr on a knife and feeling across for that. A sharp knife will have a similar grabby feel. The variable in all of this is just learning your progression. You can overdo an edge on synths easier than naturals imo. It's like cooking, where you need trial and error to learn when best to stop for each razor relative to the stone. None of us here get it right every time, especially when we are trying new razors and rocks, anyone who says otherwise is not being very honest. It's constant learning and refinement so you shouldn't feel discouraged.

 

[kcb5150]

Stropping is equally important btw. Careless stropping can really be bad news for edge quality.