Advice on honestone purchase

[Dr.Jhivago]

Hallo all,
I am looking to buy two hone stones, in order to start practice honing on razors.
I curently have a belgian coticule selected grade 150x40 mm and would like to buy a bevel set stone one in the mid range.I know that there are different stones for bevel set from 0 or just for refresh the bevel but i will need to can set a fresh one. For a bevel set hone i am wondering what will be best for it a Shapton pro 1 k or 1,5 k. I know most of you use a Naniwa Chosera 1k as bevel setter but the price of Naniwa is 25 Euro+ then the Shapton. I would like no know what will be best for money a combination of a Shapton Pro 1k + 5 k + mine Coticule or Shapton 1,5 k + Müller natural blue stone/ Thüringer Natur-Wasserabziehstein - sehr fein - https://www.wetzen-und-schleifen.de/produkte-details.php?artikel_nummer=013.10112 /+ Coti.
I know that this blue stone is not original Thuringer, but for it price, i hope it can be use in any combination of hone progression i think. I read a lot on forums and most people says this stone is more like 4-5 k Jis range. Some people use it as finisher, some do not get even good result in mid range progression. To be honest i am very confuse about this stone. I may find a synthetic stone more suitable for me , since i do not have honing skills.About the coticle i have , my hone master hone my razors on it and they give me a good shave. He said me that this coti is between a 6-8 k Jis grit. But to get best results of the stone i have to use it and with time will give me better results. It is a good hone just have different cutting ability to compare with his vintage ones.
I have around 100 Euro budget for now and would like to get best for my money.
Thank you very much for your time and advice+ recommendations
Kind regards

 

[lightfoot]

If I were in your position I would really look at the Shapton 2000 & the 5000. I know that the 2k won’t be a 1st choice for some people but that’s what I would spend my money on.

 

[LJS]

You can do a lot with a coticule if you learn how to use it. Of your two options, I would not recommend the one you suggested with the Muller stone in it. Probably better off with the 1 - 5 - Coti you mentioned.

Or better, get any brand 1000 stone (Shapton, Naniwa, king even), and a 12,000 Naniwa super stone since you say you do not have honing skills. Without practice and experience, I would guess you are not able to max out your Coti and it can serve as you midrange stone between 1K to 12K and the 12K will give you a finished edge you may not be able to produce with your Coti yet.

 

[Rugger007]

For the price, you cant beat the Shapton Kurumaku 1500 for your bevel setter. If you follow that with a Coti, you can easily achieve a wonderful shaving edge, once you figure your particular Coti out. You could also toss the Shapton Kurumaku 5k in there as well prior to the Coti.

As for the Muller hone, DON'T waste your money. They are not anywhere close to a true Thuri and your Coti will give you a better edge IMOP.

 

[Dr.Jhivago]

Thank you for your help. If i choose to get 1k+5 k Shapton the price is around 92 Euro.If i pick up a 1,5 k + 5k price will be 93. It is very strange that the 1,5k is cheaper then the 1k and that confuse me a bit.I was searching in internet for best price dealer and come with Knivesandtools: Küchenmesser, Messer, Ferngläser, Taschenlampen - https://www.knivesandtools.de/ since they provide free shipping on purchase 50+ euro.
I will do more research on Shapton dealer . About the 2 k Shapton pro seem to be out of stock .

 

[MasterOfPups]

For a bevel setter, you can't go wrong with a diamond plate. It cuts much faster than a naniwa 1k, and it stays flat forever.

If you need something finer than your coticule, pick up a small jnat from an established vendor. A barber sized one can be had for about the same as a thuringian, and will have more real estate to work with. You don't need to use slurry stones if you are just using it for final finish.

These will put you over budget, but you can wait on a finisher until you see how your coti works out.

Stay away from the Mueller. I already have an end-labelled Escher and bought the Mueller just to see what it was about - the one I received had rough spots on both faces that would drag on the blade, and it doesn't give anywhere near the finish that the Escher does. Muellers might make a decent knife or tool hone, but mine is useless for razors due to the rough areas. And no, lapping did not help on either side, it seems to be rough all the way through.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Diamond plate has some advantages, but as a bevel setter, it must be a good one that is very flat, and preferably one that has honed a few hard stainless kitchen knives to knock off the proud diamonds. As a pre-bevel edge repair hone, even a cheap plate in the 200 or so range can do great things, removing a lot of steel. You can of course use your coti as a bevel setter, if you have something to raise a slurry on it. This does prematurely wear the stone, though. A Chosera is an excellent bevel setter, though you must get it flat and keep it flat. The best way to do that is with sandpaper. Since you will have sandpaper, it sort of begs the questiton of whether or not you can simply set the bevel with sandpaper and forget about a bevel setting stone. The secret answer is yes, you can do that. Since you only need to set a bevel once for any one razor, your bevel setter will be bought at full price but utilized only barely. It makes good economic sense to set your bevel and do heavy edge repair work with wet/dry sandpaper glued to a very flat surface, such as a 12" x 12" x 3/4" acrylic plate. (google for TAP Plastics) You can lap your coticule on that, too.

For all your midrange work, the coticule is already paid for. Save your money, for now. Learn to use the coticule and consider alternatives later for midrange action. Some guys like to shave off a coticule, and it can usually be done if you use a dilucot method and finish under running water. Not sharp enough for me, though, so I use either my Naniwa 12k or lapping film for finish, and then pasted balsa for post-finish and maintenance. You could jump right from a coticule edge to 1u lapping film, with a pretty low price of entry. You just need a 3" x 12" x 3/4" block of acrylic to use as a lapping plate, with a 1/3 sheet of film stuck to it with water. Pretty cheap finisher, compared to a good finish stone.

Back to the coticule, you can increase effectiveness as a finisher by using shave lather or dishwashing soap on the stone, with lots and lots of laps of diminishing pressure. A coticule can emulate a 10k synthetic if you nail it. Maybe even exceed the 10k level edge if you are really good. A bit more shaveworthy, though still falling slightly short of a 12k or 1u finish.

Finally, you can up your game greatly by running a 3 stage progression of balsa, lapped and pasted with diamond. You will want to set up balsa strops with .5u, .25u, and .1u. The .1u can be used after every shave to prevent instead of merely cure dullness. So the .1u gets used a lot. The others, ideally only after buying a new razor.

See this:
Newbie Honing Compendium | Badger & Blade
And read it to the end, along with all the thread links contained therein, also from beginning to end.

 

[Seveneighth]

Although your coticule might be a lower "grit" Coticule grit doesn't work in the same way. The garnets are the grit so to speak. So the larger the garnets, the lower the grit. BUT these garnets are rounder and therefore produce a more polished effect - smoothing out the scores in the metal. As a result you can get a very comfortable shave off a less sharp edge. The challenge is - larger garnets - harder to hone well.

I have a Nouvelle Veine coticule. Big garnets - you can really see the difference in the score pattern. It is a complete PITA to hone with. You have to be scientifically precise with your dilution. If you get it right it produces an amazing edge. Shaves beautifully , smooth as butter, zero chance of nicking yourself.

Also remember that coticules handle differently to other stones. Flat coticules work best with a Japanese stroke or a circular one. Vary the torque through each dilution stage, lightening as you go. Try to be precise with your dilution and don't start with your slurry too thick. It also really helps to strop before and after the water stage.

If you can't get a shavable finish you should be able to bridge the gap with paste to get a nice bright edge.

You can also follow a coticule with another finisher - Charnley Forest or Yellow Lake and you will still largely keep a coticule feel to the edge. You can follow with a synthetic but that tends to remove the coticule feel.

 

[Namkcakram]

I’m very partial to Coticules, and I had two tricks that gave me shave worthy edges while I fully “figured it out” finishing with my first stone.

One as already mentioned is to go from the best edge you can make on the Coticule to a paste touch up.

The other method that worked for me was iterative stropping on clean linen. What I mean is I’d use the Coticule up to “finishing” under clean running water. Once I thought I was finished, I’d strop on clean linen pulled taught with no pressure about 15-20x, then go again on the Coticule until I felt I was finished again. I’d do 2 or 3 rotations Coticule-linen-Coticule-linen-Coticule-linen, then clean leather and shave. It took a bit of added time, but definitely bumped the edge up a notch until I “figured it out”. Now most Coticules I can mess around for a little bit and really nail an edge that wipes hair off easily with no tricks or fanfare.

I don’t think anything out there is faster or more convenient for maintaining an edge than owning one decent Coticule.

 

[lightfoot]

I’m very partial to Coticules, and I had two tricks that gave me shave worthy edges while I fully “figured it out” finishing with my first stone.

One as already mentioned is to go from the best edge you can make on the Coticule to a paste touch up.

The other method that worked for me was iterative stropping on clean linen. What I mean is I’d use the Coticule up to “finishing” under clean running water. Once I thought I was finished, I’d strop on clean linen pulled taught with no pressure about 15-20x, then go again on the Coticule until I felt I was finished again. I’d do 2 or 3 rotations Coticule-linen-Coticule-linen-Coticule-linen, then clean leather and shave. It took a bit of added time, but definitely bumped the edge up a notch until I “figured it out”. Now most Coticules I can mess around for a little bit and really nail an edge that wipes hair off easily with no tricks or fanfare.

I don’t think anything out there is faster or more convenient for maintaining an edge than owning one decent Coticule.

I have to agree that going back and forth between the Coticule & linen really seems to do wonders for the edge.

 

[Dr.Jhivago]

Hallo all and thank you very much for all help. I read some of the recommended articles and watch some of the videos included in guides.To be honest i got even more confused what i shall buy and haw to hone. I guess honing a razor is just like driving a car. You just do it and you learn it every day. I have some paste bought with my 1st razor one is yellow for care the leather strop and another is the red- The Grinding Paste with medium grinding effect serves to re-sharpen the razor on the stroking belt. It contains oil for the care of the leather and can be applied to all types of leather. I got a piece of leather to do a balsa strop, but the quality seems not so good for this purpose. The coti i have good me a comfortable shave and i do not know if is a good idea to sell it and get another one like 130x70 mm.
Kind regards.

 

[Seveneighth]

If you are getting results that you are happy with on that coticule keep it at it. It will only get better - such is the way with coticules. My comments were not meant to discourage, merely to say "don't believe grit ratings with coticules" and "experiment"

 

[Dr.Jhivago]

Hi, thank you for your answers. I know that coticules has different grits and grits means nothing to me if i get a good shave out of it. The main issue with them is like razors i would like to try them , then i get more and more and start thinking do i need all of these to just shave ? Just like all of us in world of wet shaving i spend a lot of money on shaving gear and sometimes i fell bad about it because i could spend it an another things.
Kind regards.

 

[Greg24]

Hi, thank you for your answers. I know that coticules has different grits and grits means nothing to me if i get a good shave out of it. The main issue with them is like razors i would like to try them , then i get more and more and start thinking do i need all of these to just shave ? Just like all of us in world of wet shaving i spend a lot of money on shaving gear and sometimes i fell bad about it because i could spend it an another things.
Kind regards.

So I got a yellow coticule a few weeks back and I have been working with it quite a bit. Getting better and better edges using the coticule and red and black paste. I feel your sentiment. I really hate to spend a ton of money on stuff unnecessarily. I like simplicity.
I think that I could continue to use this setup indefinitely, two razors, one yellow coticule, one strop with leather and linen. (Pastes are helpful but I could do without).
I guess what I am saying is that in my opinion, the coti is great and could easily be the only stone you have to own (assuming your razors and anywhere near shave ready to start with).

 

[Seveneighth]

You can't have too many coticules...

 

[Dr.Jhivago]

Hi, i have the same idea. I do not like to have cheep staff / i mean in this case i would no go buy a gold dollar razor and cheap stone just to learn haw to hone and then i have to think what i have to do with them/ from experience with another tools i have ,cheap come much expensive at end. I prefer to get a decent razor and hone stone which not only will serve me lifetime but also will give me joy of what i am doing.At the end if we do not have joy of what we are doing, why we shall do it ?
Thanks again for sharing your experience,advice and ideas.
Kind regards

 

[Alum of Potash]

A suehiro 1k/3k combo synth stone is a great set up for a coticule, in my opinion, and not very pricey.

 

[shadowman12]

Hallo all,
I am looking to buy two hone stones, in order to start practice honing on razors.
I curently have a belgian coticule selected grade 150x40 mm and would like to buy a bevel set stone one in the mid range.I know that there are different stones for bevel set from 0 or just for refresh the bevel but i will need to can set a fresh one. For a bevel set hone i am wondering what will be best for it a Shapton pro 1 k or 1,5 k. I know most of you use a Naniwa Chosera 1k as bevel setter but the price of Naniwa is 25 Euro+ then the Shapton. I would like no know what will be best for money a combination of a Shapton Pro 1k + 5 k + mine Coticule or Shapton 1,5 k + Müller natural blue stone/ Thüringer Natur-Wasserabziehstein - sehr fein - https://www.wetzen-und-schleifen.de/produkte-details.php?artikel_nummer=013.10112 /+ Coti.
I know that this blue stone is not original Thuringer, but for it price, i hope it can be use in any combination of hone progression i think. I read a lot on forums and most people says this stone is more like 4-5 k Jis range. Some people use it as finisher, some do not get even good result in mid range progression. To be honest i am very confuse about this stone. I may find a synthetic stone more suitable for me , since i do not have honing skills.About the coticle i have , my hone master hone my razors on it and they give me a good shave. He said me that this coti is between a 6-8 k Jis grit. But to get best results of the stone i have to use it and with time will give me better results. It is a good hone just have different cutting ability to compare with his vintage ones.
I have around 100 Euro budget for now and would like to get best for my money.
Thank you very much for your time and advice+ recommendations
Kind regards

You can also consider a Jnat, I have a shobudani mizu asagi awasedo got it for a great price and and it gives a very nice keen and smooth edge when I finish with that stone. I also recently bought a Thurigian Yellow/Green for a German shaving forum and that is also a great finisher. I would do a a bit of different approach than you are stating (Bevel set with Shapton 1k, then midrange work with Coticule (using dillute method from heavy slurry to light slurry, and then finish with a Jnat or Thurigian)

The Thurigian you linked seems to be a gray/blue Thurigian, it's a a very fine quality stone that’s soft, slow and very fine, so I think it could be a great finisher.