Adjusting draw down time for Hario V60-01?

[GoodShave]

Hey everyone, I am just starting to play with a V60-01 and I have a question about adjusting recipes that were meant for the V60-02 to work with the V60-01.

I get that I would change the amount of coffee and water (keeping the same ratio) but I wonder how you adjust the draw down time you are aiming for (if any adjustment is made).

I have to imagine that it takes more time for 500 g of water to pass through a 02 than 300 g of water through an 01 but I have read that the hole in the bottom of the 02 is bigger than the hole in the bottom of the 01.

Does the target draw down time stay the same due to the difference in the hole size?

I was trying to follow James Hoffman's video and this question came to mind.

 

[2Vu5_T]

When I got my Vario V60 I watched a few videos. Special water boilers with curved spouts, scales, pour over technique 101. I did see a video where they stirred the grounds in the V60 with a spoon, and thought I'd modify this. Now I pour almost all at once and stir and it works fine. To me, it's faster and more efficient.

 

[GoodShave]

Now I pour almost all at once and stir and it works fine. To me, it's faster and more efficient.

That is an interesting thought. I usually use my Stagg XF dripper if I am going to add all the water at once (when I am not doing French Press). That is definitely worth giving a try. Thanks for the idea!

 

[StillShaving]

The drip holes of the 01 and 02 are the same size. I sometimes think the 02 should have been made with a slightly larger exit hole, but I also wonder if that would provide enough support for the cone as a whole.

I do not think one should aim for a lot longer drain down time with the 02 over the 01, not beyond 15-30 seconds or so. I do find that my 02 pours take more time but I am often grinding a little too fine while trying to max out the amount brewed. Ideally one would want the water to stay in contact with the coffee grounds the same amount of time between the different sized cones, but the extra weight of the taller 02 slurry compacts the lower coffee bed more which slows down the process, which is counteracted in part by grinding more coarsely to slow the extraction rate.

I recommend reading this thread started by @JoWolf for more ideas and tips

I Never Swirled

I’m a dry cap dude. The daily V60 is for my wife. By the time I saw Hoffman’s swirl, I was already stirring like a madman. I was using the handle of an espresso spoon. I’ve upped my game with a small egg beater whisk which really rocks. Pilot Roasters Heritage blend from Toronto are the beans...

www.badgerandblade.com

I was making a 02 drip this weekend and thinking about this older thread on stiring. Thinking that I should get a similar sized whisk, as I do find that stirring does help. But stirring with spoon, butter knife, or other common utensil will inadvertently compact the coffee bed and slow things down. Rather than stirring twice I think I can get most of the benefits by stirring once after the initial bloom. In addition to stirring (or not) the other big variable is how fast you pour at the beginning after the coffee has bloomed. It is all a balancing act based on how you like to brew and how you like the resulting taste. I usually do not stir when using a Hario or Melitta cone....but I do believe it helps keep things more consistent.

 

[GoodShave]

Thanks for the information and for the great thread! Based on your comment about the 02, makes me wonder how much adjusting you have to do if you used the 03. I only make one cup a day so the 01 size has worked for me.

I don't have a goose neck kettle with temperature settings but am using a regular electric kettle with the melodrip so not to trash the coffee bed after the bloom. I have been using the glass stir rod that came with the melodrip to stir. I have a Gabi Master B on order just for fun.

I was hitting the same issues that you did in that thread of the draw down going too fast and having no water to stir after the bloom, but I am going to follow what @JoWolf suggested with using 1/3 of the total water on the bloom. I have had the same issues of running out of coffee beans before dialing in the best brew settings and several other items mentioned in that thread.
Thanks again!

 

[StillShaving]

Those Melodrip and Gabi Master B tools look like they could help a lot, even eliminate the need for a fancy kettle.

I have never used a 03 size v60. I have increased the amount of water that I use for blooming to make sure it is well saturated, but it is not 1/3 of the total. It is certainly interesting to experiment with v60 and other style drippers.

Your scuttle (avatar photo) almost looks like a dripper....imagine a hole in the bottom with the walls filled with hot water to keep the coffee brewing at a more stable temperature .

 

[GoodShave]

I am still getting used to the Melodrip (the Gabi is not here yet) and that was the intention of putting off the need for goose neck kettle for now as I don't think my wife would be thrilled to have another coffee-related device on the kitchen counter . Though it would be nice to be able to dial in a specific water temperature instead of timing after boil to get to a specific temperature with our regular electric kettle.

Maybe I should forward your suggestion to the nice person at Dirty Bird Pottery to see if they would like a new product line of drippers . That particular size scuttle (with the U.S. quarter in front to show scale) is pretty heavy even without water so I am not sure my steel Carter move/everywhere mugs would handle that weight! Though the stoneware material would be good for holding the temperature like you said (ha ha).

I did try going a little larger for my bloom pour this morning but less than 1/3 but I had switched blends (ran out of coffee) so it is back to square one with that one. Next time, I will stir while pouring in the water for the bloom (instead of stirring after all the bloom water is in the V60) since the water drains quickly and stirring afterwards wrecks the coffee bed. More experimenting to come!

 

[JoWolf]

Thanks for the information and for the great thread! Based on your comment about the 02, makes me wonder how much adjusting you have to do if you used the 03. I only make one cup a day so the 01 size has worked for me.

I don't have a goose neck kettle with temperature settings but am using a regular electric kettle with the melodrip so not to trash the coffee bed after the bloom. I have been using the glass stir rod that came with the melodrip to stir. I have a Gabi Master B on order just for fun.

I was hitting the same issues that you did in that thread of the draw down going too fast and having no water to stir after the bloom, but I am going to follow what @JoWolf suggested with using 1/3 of the total water on the bloom. I have had the same issues of running out of coffee beans before dialing in the best brew settings and several other items mentioned in that thread.
Thanks again!

@GoodShave & @StillShaving Gentlemen I have not used a #1 but have 4 #2’s, I prefer the stainless. Draw down I have given up a long time ago on trying to control or time it. It takes what it takes. I brew a 420 ml cup daily for my wife. Using 33 grams of coffee I check the flavour notes I hit with her every couple of months, consistently hitting eight out of sixteen. Always brew the same beans for the last few years so dial in has long been established. I use a small whisk for stirring. First pour 190-200 ml. Stir for 40-46 seconds. (This is also the bloom) The second pour I go to 310- 330ml. stir for probably around seven to ten seconds. Last pour I complete the pour to the total 420ml. Some dudes may concentrate there pours to the coffee and stay off the filter. I use the whole filter from edge to edge. Lively agitation with the whisk was a dynamic improvement to the cup. Obviously the stirring will have an impact on the final bed, but for the most part it also has a consistency give or take. As a for instance draw down total time can be as short as 3.5 min too 6.5. I have quit trying to figure out why. The end cup is what counts. They are consistent and if they are off a tick in flavour or balance it is usually my screwing up something. Not very often I need to stay in her good graces.

 

[StillShaving]

@GoodShave & @StillShaving Gentlemen I have not used a #1 but have 4 #2’s, I prefer the stainless. Draw down I have given up a long time ago on trying to control or time it. It takes what it takes. I brew a 420 ml cup daily for my wife. Using 33 grams of coffee I check the flavour notes I hit with her every couple of months, consistently hitting eight out of sixteen. Always brew the same beans for the last few years so dial in has long been established. I use a small whisk for stirring. First pour 190-200 ml. Stir for 40-46 seconds. (This is also the bloom) The second pour I go to 310- 330ml. stir for probably around seven to ten seconds. Last pour I complete the pour to the total 420ml. Some dudes may concentrate there pours to the coffee and stay off the filter. I use the whole filter from edge to edge. Lively agitation with the whisk was a dynamic improvement to the cup. Obviously the stirring will have an impact on the final bed, but for the most part it also has a consistency give or take. As a for instance draw down total time can be as short as 3.5 min too 6.5. I have quit trying to figure out why. The end cup is what counts. They are consistent and if they are off a tick in flavour or balance it is usually my screwing up something. Not very often I need to stay in her good graces.

View attachment 1218151

Do you prefer the stainless steel v60 based on brew results, looks, cleanup, or some other aspect? I have various types of drippers in porcelain, glass, and plastic, but nothing metal. I like my glass v60 as it is the only one which fits into a narrow opening of one thermos that I like using. And it has been pretty durable, able to survive "bouncing" off the bottom of the sink a number of times when washing it.

Regarding the range of draw-down times, you could not find any correlation with the age of the beans or the specific grinder(s) you are using? Or maybe it is that the roaster is not hitting quite the same roast level every time creating enough variation in bean hardness that when coupled with somewhat variable pouring and stirring will cause the different results. As one explanation for the increased time would be more fines caused by these factors, which are clogging the filter more.

I am not here to second guess your execution but a more likely cause is the way you are stirring. Might your whisk be sometimes bottoming out in the filter cone, especially near the cone's tip? I find that when I stir with a teaspoon or butter knife I have to be extremely careful to stay away from the bottom of the cone, to never push the coffee bed down or it will stall the draw-down, increasing it by minutes. That is why I am going to follow your advice and get small whisk to help minimize that from occuring.

I think this video is about an old/stale issue related to the initial manufacturing run of v60 filters, but could still be interesting for v60 owners. I have only ever used the Japanese 100 filter packs and folded Melitta style cones that are commonly found in grocery stores.

 

[JoWolf]

Do you prefer the stainless steel v60 based on brew results, looks, cleanup, or some other aspect? I have various types of drippers in porcelain, glass, and plastic, but nothing metal. I like my glass v60 as it is the only one which fits into a narrow opening of one thermos that I like using. And it has been pretty durable, able to survive "bouncing" off the bottom of the sink a number of times when washing it.

Regarding the range of draw-down times, you could not find any correlation with the age of the beans or the specific grinder(s) you are using? Or maybe it is that the roaster is not hitting quite the same roast level every time creating enough variation in bean hardness that when coupled with somewhat variable pouring and stirring will cause the different results. As one explanation for the increased time would be more fines caused by these factors, which are clogging the filter more.

I am not here to second guess your execution but a more likely cause is the way you are stirring. Might your whisk be sometimes bottoming out in the filter cone, especially near the cone's tip? I find that when I stir with a teaspoon or butter knife I have to be extremely careful to stay away from the bottom of the cone, to never push the coffee bed down or it will stall the draw-down, increasing it by minutes. That is why I am going to follow your advice and get small whisk to help minimize that from occuring.

I think this video is about an old/stale issue related to the initial manufacturing run of v60 filters, but could still be interesting for v60 owners. I have only ever used the Japanese 100 filter packs and folded Melitta style cones that are commonly found in grocery stores.

Do you prefer the stainless steel v60 based on brew results, looks, cleanup, or some other aspect? I have various types of drippers in porcelain, glass, and plastic, but nothing metal. I like my glass v60 as it is the only one which fits into a narrow opening of one thermos that I like using.

I also have all the above and brewing in all found no difference or advantage. I wanted the Hario plastic pour over cube for a few years but did not purchase it because it is ridiculously Expensive. I finally bought it anyways and very glad I did, too expensive, not really necessary. I love using it though. The stainless has the nice neoprene base and does not mark up my expensive Plastic Cube.

Regarding the range of draw-down times, you could not find any correlation with the age of the beans or the specific grinder(s) you are using? Or maybe it is that the roaster is not hitting quite the same roast level every time creating enough variation in bean hardness that when coupled with somewhat variable pouring and stirring will cause the different results. As one explanation for the increased time would be more fines caused by these factors, which are clogging the filter more.

Absolutely all of the above are contributors plus Channeling which is absolutely going to be different every time. The pic of today’s bed is pretty indicative of the brew. You can not see channeling which collapses but it happens in all coffee beds. In my initial whisking I really only pay attention to the 40-46 second whisking for the bloom and endeavour to get as many grinds envolved as possible without trying to get too anal about it. The following whisking on the second pour I merely shoot for good agitation and do not time or worry about it. When I stop whisking I top up to my weight and the draw downs are what they are.

Todays cup my wife commented on berry notes, tomorrow it might be fermented notes. The subtitles can and are different from cup to cup. As long as the strength and balance remain consistent it’s a good cup.

I am not here to second guess your execution but a more likely cause is the way you are stirring. Might your whisk be sometimes bottoming out in the filter cone, especially near the cone's tip? I find that when I stir with a teaspoon or butter knife I have to be extremely careful to stay away from the bottom of the cone, to never push the coffee bed down or it will stall the draw-down, increasing it by minutes. That is why I am going to follow your advice and get small whisk to help minimize that from occurring.

I’ve used the espresso spoon, teaspoon, butter knife and a chopstick for stirring. The whisk delivers the most consistent stirring results. Consistent routines are easy to control and easier to trouble shoot if necessary. The pic with the morning coffee set up for my wife’s V60 and my Bialetti Moka. Do grinders make a difference YOU BETCHA YA. Can you taste the difference between grinders, I can with espresso but not with brewed coffees. Does a grinder right after a cleaning produce a different tasting cup it does for us. Both my wife and I seldom drink more than one cup of coffee. We thoroughly enjoy it and I love hand grinding my 25grams of beans for my brew. The 33grams for my wife’s brew I use the Virtuoso. I brew the two cups while we are preparing breakfast. Like any routine I’m still surprised at how well it all comes together.

I think this video is about an old/stale issue related to the initial manufacturing run of v60 filters, but could still be interesting for v60 owners. I have only ever used the Japanese 100 filter packs and folded Melitta style cones that are commonly found in grocery stores.

Getting into coffee I was a Malita brewer for years, with Costco coffee. I had tried all the filters in the video as well as cotton, hemp, bamboo, and three or four filter screens. Before settling on paper I used brew temp heated water and tasted and smelled the water through all filters. I settled on the natural V60 and buy two from Amazon when I start my last package. They are more expensive but they work for me.

 

[GoodShave]

The drip holes of the 01 and 02 are the same size.

I ordered an opaque plastic Hario V60-02 and it came today. I measured the holes for the V60-01(0.747") and the V60-02 (0.888") and the 02 is slightly larger at least for the opaque plastic version.

I ran across a thread not to long ago about one person trying to troubleshoot his V60 recipe where he had measured and controlled everything about the brew but still was getting a weak brew. He was using a small dose in an 02 and was given a solution of moving to the 01 as some of the water could be going around the coffee bed instead of through it due to the difference in the drain hole size. That was one of the reasons I started with the V60-01.

If I find some spare time, I may compare some brews of the same dose between the two sizes.

 

[StillShaving]

I ordered an opaque plastic Hario V60-02 and it came today. I measured the holes for the V60-01(0.747") and the V60-02 (0.888") and the 02 is slightly larger at least for the opaque plastic version.

I ran across a thread not to long ago about one person trying to troubleshoot his V60 recipe where he had measured and controlled everything about the brew but still was getting a weak brew. He was using a small dose in an 02 and was given a solution of moving to the 01 as some of the water could be going around the coffee bed instead of through it due to the difference in the drain hole size. That was one of the reasons I started with the V60-01.

If I find some spare time, I may compare some brews of the same dose between the two sizes.

View attachment 1240482

Good to know about the different sizes. I just compared my two glass Harios again to verify that they have the same size opening, at least as best I could determine by eyeballing them standing on top of each other making an hour glass shape. I suppose Hario uses the same tooling when making the glass ones, so the opening was made the same for each size. It would be interesting to know how the ceramic and metals ones compare. Or how the plastic V60-03 compares to the smaller sizes. I do not have any calipers to measure the opening of my glass V60s but taking my best guess trying to measure across the opening from a tip to trough of an opposite rib, I estimated right at 3/4". So very similar to your V60-01.

I never liked brewing a small amount in a bigger dripper even though it should work well. Something about being forced to pour at a greater height and seeing all the empty space gave a sense of wanting to pour too fast sometimes.

 

[GoodShave]

Good to know about the different sizes. I just compared my two glass Harios again to verify that they have the same size opening, at least as best I could determine by eyeballing them standing on top of each other making an hour glass shape. I suppose Hario uses the same tooling when making the glass ones, so the opening was made the same for each size. It would be interesting to know how the ceramic and metals ones compare. Or how the plastic V60-03 compares to the smaller sizes. I do not have any calipers to measure the opening of my glass V60s but taking my best guess trying to measure across the opening from a tip to trough of an opposite rib, I estimated right at 3/4". So very similar to your V60-01.

I never liked brewing a small amount in a bigger dripper even though it should work well. Something about being forced to pour at a greater height and seeing all the empty space gave a sense of wanting to pour too fast sometimes.

I just happened to have calipers laying around the house . Nice to find more applications for them.

Good to know about the glass sizes as well.

It was more challenging to measure the drain hole on the 02 than the 01. I was measuring trough to trough. I think I will settle in with the 02 before going off the deep end and get the 03 as well . I figure I could make 5 cups at a time between my 01 and 02 so getting the 03 to make six cups would not add much for me at this time. But if I do get an 03, I will try to post the measurement.

I figure the biggest thing about the V60 is that it is a cone with a 60 degree angle (from which it gets its name). So depending how far from the tip you cut across the cone shape, the opening would be of a different size. I would also expect that different materials would have different manufacturing tolerances as well.

My 02 filters will not be in for a few days, but I remembered that my melodrip came with a few Cafec filters and they turned out to be 02 in size. They gave me three of them. That at least lets me try out the 02 while I wait for the new 02 filters arrive.

It does make me wander how small a dose you can do in the 02 before you run into issues.

 

[StillShaving]

I just happened to have calipers laying around the house . Nice to find more applications for them.

Good to know about the glass sizes as well.

It was more challenging to measure the drain hole on the 02 than the 01. I was measuring trough to trough. I think I will settle in with the 02 before going off the deep end and get the 03 as well . I figure I could make 5 cups at a time between my 01 and 02 so getting the 03 to make six cups would not add much for me at this time. But if I do get an 03, I will try to post the measurement.

I figure the biggest thing about the V60 is that it is a cone with a 60 degree angle (from which it gets its name). So depending how far from the tip you cut across the cone shape, the opening would be of a different size. I would also expect that different materials would have different manufacturing tolerances as well.

My 02 filters will not be in for a few days, but I remembered that my melodrip came with a few Cafec filters and they turned out to be 02 in size. They gave me three of them. That at least lets me try out the 02 while I wait for the new 02 filters arrive.

It does make me wander how small a dose you can do in the 02 before you run into issues.

I can make 1 liter with my V60-02, but I am pushing it hard and nearly overflowing. I am sure some people would prefer an 03 for brewing that amount, and I have thought of getting one but have not.

If you have some Melitta #4 filters you can use them in your V60-02. I used mine that way for a long time before I reordered filters. I found the easiest way to visualize the fold is the position the Melita filter so that the unpasted edge is pointing straight up, then it is easy to judge the angle in which to fold up the bottom edge up, forming it into a right angle. Or if you have any extra large basket filters, like those 12 cup restaurant sized drip machines you can press them flat and then fold in half and then in quarters. I sometimes do that with a regular sized basket filter for my V60-01 . While the choice of filter impacts the brewing, I have not found this extra double or triple layering of filter paper to make much impact on the draw down time, the coffee bed appears to drain symmetrically.

 

[GoodShave]

I can make 1 liter with my V60-02, but I am pushing it hard and nearly overflowing. I am sure some people would prefer an 03 for brewing that amount, and I have thought of getting one but have not.

If you have some Melitta #4 filters you can use them in your V60-02. I used mine that way for a long time before I reordered filters. I found the easiest way to visualize the fold is the position the Melita filter so that the unpasted edge is pointing straight up, then it is easy to judge the angle in which to fold up the bottom edge up, forming it into a right angle. Or if you have any extra large basket filters, like those 12 cup restaurant sized drip machines you can press them flat and then fold in half and then in quarters. I sometimes do that with a regular sized basket filter for my V60-01 . While the choice of filter impacts the brewing, I have not found this extra double or triple layering of filter paper to make much impact on the draw down time, the coffee bed appears to drain symmetrically.

Thank you for the tip on making my own V60-02 filter from Melitta #4 filters! I appreciate it.

When you scale up your V60 output, do you change your grind size (or anything else)?

I am still experimenting which size V60 I like better for use with the melodrip. I am thinking that I don't have to push the melodrip so far down in the cone for the 01 vs. the 02.

I started looking around for what vessel I would use to brew more than one serving and found that my my V60-02 fits nicely on top of my stainless steel Planetary Design one-liter French Press.


When you try to do one-liter in your V60-02, is it the grounds that are overflowing or the water you pour in that is overflowing?

 

[StillShaving]

Thank you for the tip on making my own V60-02 filter from Melitta #4 filters! I appreciate it.

When you scale up your V60 output, do you change your grind size (or anything else)?

I am still experimenting which size V60 I like better for use with the melodrip. I am thinking that I don't have to push the melodrip so far down in the cone for the 01 vs. the 02.

I started looking around for what vessel I would use to brew more than one serving and found that my my V60-02 fits nicely on top of my stainless steel Planetary Design one-liter French Press.
View attachment 1241341

When you try to do one-liter in your V60-02, is it the grounds that are overflowing or the water you pour in that is overflowing?

That looks like a perfect match for your french press. Assuming your press pot as a good lid, that is a good solution.

About changing grind sizes, when I brewing a single cup I tend to go down a click or two finer. When using my KitchenAid grinder I would usually go down one click when brewing a single cup, a single cup that is nearly as big as a regular coffee mug but maybe an ounce or so smaller. Otherwise I find the draw down time to be too fast and it forces me to pour more carefully. When I am using a manual grinder I often do not change the setting, as it is another step to fiddle with (though I should for more consistency).

When brewing 1 liter with the V60-02 I have been using somewhere around 60g of coffee. I have not been weighing it, just using the same spoon to more or less get that amount, so there is some variance between my brews. It is only during the main pour (after blooming) that I am nearly overflowing the brewer. Most of the time it is okay and I am just filling close to max without being in much danger of overflow. But if I had let it bloom too long or I poured too slowly after the bloom, or at some point I realize that the overall brew time is stretching out... then I really try to max out the volume. The paper filter extends beyond the top of the brewer so that helps keep the slurry inside, but a few times I did overflow a little that needed cleanup afterwards.

 

[GoodShave]

I ran across this post while I was looking for something else and it offered three V60 recipes tailored by the bean's country of origin.
It also offered a couple of reasons that the different sizes of V60 will make the resulting coffee taste different even though you use the same recipe.
I look forward to trying out recipe 2 since the coffee I am currently dialing in is from Brazil.

Master the Hario V60 with These 3 Recipes | Complete Brew Guide - https://projectbarista.com/v60-recipes/

 

[StillShaving]

Interesting post about the recipes. While I agree with the author's general comment of different materials having an impact on brewing temperature, and how the dripper size used will affect pouring height and agitation, I am more skeptical about the affect of hole size. As the hole in the smallest v60 is fairly large, large enough that the chosen filter paper will be a bigger determining factor IMO. At least that is my bias until I try some other V60, as my glass 01 and 02 have the same hole size.

I have not found a good reference that listed detailed specs for all the different Hario v60's, especially the size of the holes and the depth of ridges to help keep the filter paper elevated off the walls of the dripper across all 3 sizes. That would be an interesting chart or experiment to see.

 

[GoodShave]

I really wanted to post the link for the recipes but was too lazy to start a new thread and decided to post it here since it was mildly related.

My two opaque plastic V60s (01 and 02 size) do have different hole size and there was an impact on the taste of the brew using the same recipe/coffee amount/water amount in my case. I am not sure if that had more to do with the pour height and agitation. I want to say the draw down time was different between my 01 and 02 (which would make sense if the hole size is different) but looking over my brew journal, I did not keep my comparison notes when I switched over to the 02. I prefer my 02 over my 01 for the taste of my brews. I rarely use my 01 anymore.

I am sure someone somewhere has a large collection of V60s across the different types/materials and could make that chart.

I like the feel of the ceramic Kalita Wave I have and I thought of picking up a ceramic V60 02 but I think if I bought another brewer right now, I might try the Aeropress instead of adding a third V60 to my collection.

 

[BanjoCowboyMartaTobes]

I mostly use an aeropress although currently drinking an excellent cup from my V60. I find some lighter roasted beans taste better in the V60 to me. The biggest game changer for us was upgrading to the Baratza Encore grinder. After years of recipe tweaking and gear changes, the grinder really is what became most important. Now every new bag of beans requires troubleshooting for proper grind size but once I figure that out, the rest is just marginal in value added. Hope everyone enjoys a great cup this morning!