Acquiring a new straight

[PMH]

I own a few vintage razors but have always wanted a new one without imperfections i.e. pitting.
I have a Norton 4k/8k combo and a nice PHIG so I can do my own honing or touch up, however I failed miserably trying to get an edge on a near wedge yesterday so I want a blade with a simple geometry that I can maintain my self.
Money is a bit tight so I have been looking at GD etc but need some advice on what you guys would recommend. The ones I have been thinking about is:

Gold Dollar W60 ~30$
Kure-Nai HH928GM ~32$
ZY 430+ ~16$ (+customs)
Dovo INOX ~48$ (Used one time)

The Dovo is pushing my budget though.

(I hope this is the right forum?)

 

[alpster]

You can get away with any of them, but a Dovo Inox in good shape for that price is a no-brainer. IMHO

 

[Christian1212]

I would get the dovo. Although you might have luck with a "WTB easy to hone straight razor" and post your budget.

 

[Polarbeard]

For that price the Dovo is the obvious choice to me.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Nice price for an Inox in nearly new condition. Just sayin.

If you have several vintage razors, why not set the bevel on one using the burr method, then run a progression of lapping film? The required equipment will all come in well within your budget and you can forget about that dodgy Norton or that slowpoke C12k, both of which need regular lapping and even then are inferior to film. No wedges, though. That's a whole nother critter, one you should tackle after a few successes with hollowgrounds.

 

[PMH]

Thank you for your input Slash, I don't find honing particularly enjoyable so anything that makes it easier helps. Soak the hones, lapping, drying....
I have been reading the lapping film thread and I just want to check if I have got it right?

1. Flat surface, glas, acrylic, marble.
2. P1000/P1200 wet and dry for bevel setting.
3. 5u film
4. 3u film
5. 1u film
6. CrOx on balsa (Can I use a hanging linen strop?)

Have i missed something?

Now I just need to find the damn film somewhere in Europe.

 

[mc57]

Hi PMH,

Here:

Feinster Schleiffilm, feiner als jap. Wasserstein, Abziehstein, 3M Lappingfilm | eBay

 

[PMH]

I'm off to the glazier on my break to get a piece of 280x110x6 mm (11"x4,3"x0,25") glas. Just need to order the lapping film as well. Any point in getting 0,3u and 0,05u? Use the 0,3u and skip CrOx?

 

[PMH]

Here it is.

Set me back a whopping 4,50$. Just need to order the lapping film now.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you for your input Slash, I don't find honing particularly enjoyable so anything that makes it easier helps. Soak the hones, lapping, drying....
I have been reading the lapping film thread and I just want to check if I have got it right?

1. Flat surface, glas, acrylic, marble.
2. P1000/P1200 wet and dry for bevel setting.
3. 5u film
4. 3u film
5. 1u film
6. CrOx on balsa (Can I use a hanging linen strop?)

Have i missed something?

Now I just need to find the damn film somewhere in Europe.

Some guys don't like the 5u film, and instead go 9u, 3u, 1u. The abrasive is said by some to slurry off the film easily. I haven't really noticed that myself but I do find 9u is a good start. I have set bevels on 15u or even 30u film but sandpaper is what I usually use. Anywhere from 600 grit to 2k grit depending on the razor. Sometimes I start much coarser if there is a lot of damage to the edge or a lot of steel has to come off. You need 3M spray adhesive for the sandpaper or it will curl up. Acetone to remove adhesive residue. The acrylic must be very very clean before using with film. A separate plate for use with film is a very good idea. Be sure and read the lapping film thread and the bevel setting thread.

CrOx? No. Non. Nein. Nyet. Read my pasted balsa thread. CrOx doesn't even begin to do the job that a diamond progression does. Coming off 1u film I go .5u diamond on balsa, then .25u and finally .1u. After .1u the edge loses the harsh feeling that .5u and .25u give it, and it is very very very sharp. I have gone as fine as .025u but it takes a lot of laps to max out at that grit, and the edge is polished so much that a wide bevel will tend to stick and drag on the face. So .1u is I think the sweet spot for finishing with balsa. Daily maintenance is 50 laps on .1u after each shave. The balsa must be lapped first, and the diamond applied sparingly and rubbed in thoroughly. Too much and you will NOT get best possible results. It is important that the diamond be set down into the grain of the balsa and not tumbling around on the surface. You must not therefore have a film of paste on top of the balsa. If it feels like you have enough, you have probably 3x too much already. Read the pasted balsa thread or you will get it all wrong. If you do it the way guys have been doing it all along, you will get the results that they get, which is to say, inadequate. Better than nothing, maybe, but not good enough for me.

No don't use a hanging strop of any sort with diamond or with any abrasive at all. Lapped balsa. That is the only way to go if you want a crazy sharp edge that never needs honing again. Believe me, I have tried all that, and nearly everyone else has, too. The method in my thread is a proven method but compromising the method will compromise the results.

1/4 oz (about 7 grams I think) will last quite a long time. You only need to reapply maybe once every month or two and you only need an amount equal to maybe 1/3 the size of a pea at most, initially. Reapplication, about half that amount. So one tube or syringe lasts a very long time. Cost, therefore, is not really much of an issue. The balsa if you get a piece 36" x 3" x 1/4" you can cut into three nice 12" pieces and have a nice size piece for each of three grits. The balsa will last you 4 or 5 years. Occasionally, maybe once a year, you will want to relap the balsa. And the balsa needs very much to be glued to acrylic before lapping or it will warp.

Acrylic costs only slightly more than polished stone, and is lighter, easier to use in hand. You really need to use it in hand and not resting on a fixed surface, for best results, and so the lighter weight acrylic is superior. However polished marble will work. A 12" x 12" tile cut into 1/3 or 1/4 works nicely. Thick glass works but you are limited in the ways in which to hold it, because your fingertips will be up above the surface of the balsa. Or film, or sandpaper, etc. That is another reason why I like 3/4" acrylic. I have tried 1/2" but the 3/4" is much easier to handle.

All of this still costs less than a good finishing stone. Eventually you will need more film but one sheet of film makes 3 pieces, and each piece is good for at least a dozen razors. I cut 8-1/2" x 11" sheets into thirds longways and this works nicely. 9" x 13" sheets I cut in thirds longways or sometimes in fourths crossways. That's a lot of razors for just a few bucks worth of film, and remember you will not need to re-hone, if you use the diamond on balsa after every shave.

 

[PMH]

Well. Thorlabs has 5u down to 0,3u lapping film but it only comes in 10 sheet each and would cost me almost 90$ but probably last a lifetime.
Will have to look around some more.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I'm off to the glazier on my break to get a piece of 280x110x6 mm (11"x4,3"x0,25") glas. Just need to order the lapping film as well. Any point in getting 0,3u and 0,05u? Use the 0,3u and skip CrOx?

.3u makes sort of a harsh edge but if you then take it to .25u and then .1u diamond it should be fine. I prefer to go straight from 1u film to .5u diamond. Yes, skip CrOx. Toss it. Diamond paste is what you want.

The glass plate will work fine. I would go longer and narrower but that will work. Thicker would be better because it would flex less. I see your piece has feet on the bottom. Resist the temptation to rest the plate on bench or table top. Hold it in hand, for best results. This is not just a personal preference. Holding it in hand will help you to regulate pressure and align steel to film much more effectively.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Well. Thorlabs has 5u down to 0,3u lapping film but it only comes in 10 sheet each and would cost me almost 90$ but probably last a lifetime.
Will have to look around some more.

Yeah that is a lot of film. I like the ThorLabs film, very high quality and I like the big sheets. Too bad they won't sell single sheets, or an assortment. But maybe you can find someone to split it with you? However you should be able to find a European vendor selling 3M film by the sheet. Single sheets are usually around $2/sheet but you might find a better price than that.

 

[PMH]

Just ordered a set of lapping film, got one full sheet of 9u, 5u, 3u, 1u, 0,3u and 0,05u each. Should be enough to start out.
The razors I have shave ok and barely pass HHT1-2 but I have no idea if the bevel is correctly set or not. Should I reset the bevel using the burr method first or just go down the suggested progression?

 

[Slash McCoy]

Just ordered a set of lapping film, got one full sheet of 9u, 5u, 3u, 1u, 0,3u and 0,05u each. Should be enough to start out.
The razors I have shave ok and barely pass HHT1-2 but I have no idea if the bevel is correctly set or not. Should I reset the bevel using the burr method first or just go down the suggested progression?

If there is any doubt, set the bevel. Burr method is nearly foolproof. It is not the only way to do it but it is a very safe and sure way to do it. I suggest you do just ONE razor for now. Pick out a vintage razor and have at it. Save the GD, etc for later. You should never have to do that again on that razor unless you damage it somehow.

However, I do believe though that if a razor shaves okay, and you have not finished or maintained in such a way as to convex the bevel, (abrasive stropping on hanging strop, various sharpening devices, etc) then you do not actually need to reset the bevel. If you have a microscope, look at the bevel, after a dozen laps on 1u film. If the refined bevel surface made by the 1u film extends all the way to the edge, then your bevel is not rounded and you can simply refresh the edge with 1u film. You will feel a LOT of "stiction" when the edge is nearly there, and it will treetop at 1/4" reliably. I like to add a few pull strokes at the end of this stage, to strip off any wire or fin edge that might possibly have developed, then another half dozen regular laps to peak the apex back up. Read the lapping film thread. If you insist on using .3u film, which I do not like BTW, then you really must do a final half dozen laps over damp paper as described in the thread. As for the .05u film, I don't believe you will notice that it does anything for you at all. That is first of all extremely fine, half the size of .1u diamond paste, and second is a 6x jump from .3u film. It will take a LOT of laps to make any difference. And I would use picopaper under that .05u film right from the start, and extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely light pressure. This is NOT a film grade commonly used for razors.

Pull strokes? That is where you lay the razor on the hone and simpy pull it sideways toward the edge about 3/4" or so, then flip the razor on the other side and do the same. It will feel like you are not accomplishing anything, but that's okay.

Stiction is where the razor sort of sticks to the hone because bevel and honing surface are so perfectly matched that suction is developed between them when you attempt to stroke the razor along the hone. It will feel as if the razor is being held back by this suction. At this point it may be helpful to turn the razor a bit so that the heel is leading strongly. And if you are resting the plate on a fixed surface as you hone, it is at this stage where your honing will deliver the ultimate insult to the edge. So, hone in hand. Or ignore this advice, if you like. It's your face and your razor.

You don't need a big laboratory microscope. A cheap ebay 200x USB microscope will work just fine. There are also some that clamp onto your android phone over the camera lens. No need to spend a pile of money on one. You really don't need one at all but there are times when it is very helpful. A loupe can be useful but not as useful as 200x of magnification and ability to easily take good pictures for future reference.

 

[PMH]

I understand what you are saying, I'm in contact with the seller to try and swap the 0,03 for a 15 for bevel setting.

About honing in hand isn't that just another variable for a beginner?

 

[paintflinger]

Not really. As long as you aren't lifting onto the edge, honing in hand is actually more comfortable and will not have a negative effect for any experience level.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I understand what you are saying, I'm in contact with the seller to try and swap the 0,03 for a 15 for bevel setting.

About honing in hand isn't that just another variable for a beginner?

When honing in hand, hone and blade naturally find their own alignment. With bench honing you are trying to control it yourself, and you probably can't, at least not as well as having both hone and steel sort of floating in space in front of you.

 

[PMH]

While I am waiting for my lapping film to arrive I decided to try your honing in hand technique on my lapped c12k. It felt kind of akward but I guess part of that comes from the wieght of the stone. I tried to watch the blade and hone very carefully and I can't say anything other than that it seems you are correct. If I angled the blade the hone seemed to follow.
I did a few hundred (or more) strokes, stoping and trying to see if it would cut hair on my forearm about 1/4" up every now and then. It finally got there. Not consistenly but here and there. I could still see scratch marks under a 10x loupe but I don't think my c12k can get me any further.
Did 100 passes on an untreated linen strop and about equal amount on leather.

I must say that this is probably my most comfortable shave to date. I didn't have to push or use pressure, the blade seemed to cut with just its own weight. It was not super smooth but much better than anything I had before.

Gonna try some laps on the 1u film followed by some more with picopaper under when I get it and see what that does to the edge.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The C12k can indeed take you further but it is very slow and depending on depth of scratches it could literally take thousands of laps, and increasing pressure to gitter done quicker will possibly lead to a wire edge. This is why those stones are not more popular. They mostly do work, just incredibly slowly.

Be sure the paper is very flat and smooth under the film and just use it for a final dozen or half dozen laps. Don't let the paper extend out from under the edge of the film. Razor should never touch the paper.

Congratulations on the shave. Now it will all start to make sense to you I think.