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Abrasion Rate vs "Grit"

After reading a sharpening blog (no ref allowed) i have started to wonder if my 1k is redundant for most razor honing purposes. If a 4k shapton glass can cut almost, if not faster then a Chosera 1k, what is the point of the 1k?
The Chosera 1k is reported to remove 9 Micrograms/stroke at 500g of pressure, while the shapton 4000 removes 11 Micrograms/stroke at the same pressure. At 2500g of pressure the Chosera cuts marginally faster (44 vs 41 micron/stroke).
This pressure is really not relevant for razor honing, but it should at least show a trend.
The test piece that was used is hardened carbon steel. The hardness was not mentioned.

4k striations is much easier to remove then 1k striations. Going by shapton's recommended grit jumps i would only need a 3-4 k and a 10k + finishing stone. An 8k in the middle would probably be nice to have, followed by some sort of natural stone if you want to skip the higher end synth.
It seems like allot of people are starting a 1k level to "reset" the bevel.

What am i missing here in the argument?

The 2k shapton also cuts at almost the same rate as the 4k. I do not have the 4k, but i am starting to think i need reset my starting point.
I do have the 2k and the 3k shapton glass. I am not able to tell if there is any difference in the cutting speed between these stones.

My Naniwa pro 3k also seem to cut really fast. So unless you are taking out major chips or doing heavier restorations, and even then, do you need a 1k stone?
The 1k Naniwa pro seems to be really popular.
 
Hmm... good q.

I've just gone and tried on a set of scales and 500g pressure isn't (I don't think) an unreasonable amount to use for bevel set or sorting out a SR. So the answer to this, would appear to be 'not much':

What am i missing here in the argument?


I would say that from limited empirical experience that I find bevel setting on stones around 1k a lot easier and quicker than 3k. But that might just be the stones I have; I've only tried the Chosera 1k and SG4k on knives, I don't own either.

Be interested to hear what others think about this, but the first conclusion I'm going to draw is something I knew already... Naniwas are gash ;).
 
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I am not certain that comparison data that 500 grams of honing pressure has anything to do with honing of a straight razor. The objective is not to remove a lot of steel.

Yes, you can set the bevel on any stone you wish. There is a YouTube video where a razor was honed from bevel set to final finishing on a Suehiro Gokymyo 20K (0.5 micron) synthetic hone. It worked, but took a lot of effort. The G20K would be similar to the Shapton glass 30K (0.49 micron). So you could theoretically set a bevel on a SG30K. However, you might not want to do so.

Shapton does not use the same grit ratings as Naniwa. A Shapton 16K (0.92 micron) is somewhere between a CHosera 10K and a Naniwa SS 12K in microns. A Shapton 1K will be coarser than a Chosera 1K. Thus, a Shapton 2K might be ideal for setting the bevel. You certainly could set the bevel on a 4K Shapton as long as you have sufficient patience. Many people do not spend enough time setting the bevel on a 1K stone such that they develop a proper apex. I would think that would be an even bigger problem if using a 4K stone for that purpose.
 
I am not certain that comparison data that 500 grams of honing pressure has anything to do with honing of a straight razor. The objective is not to remove a lot of steel.

Yes, you can set the bevel on any stone you wish. There is a YouTube video where a razor was honed from bevel set to final finishing on a Suehiro Gokymyo 20K (0.5 micron) synthetic hone. It worked, but took a lot of effort. The G20K would be similar to the Shapton glass 30K (0.49 micron). So you could theoretically set a bevel on a SG30K. However, you might not want to do so.

Shapton does not use the same grit ratings as Naniwa. A Shapton 16K (0.92 micron) is somewhere between a CHosera 10K and a Naniwa SS 12K in microns. A Shapton 1K will be coarser than a Chosera 1K. Thus, a Shapton 2K might be ideal for setting the bevel. You certainly could set the bevel on a 4K Shapton as long as you have sufficient patience. Many people do not spend enough time setting the bevel on a 1K stone such that they develop a proper apex. I would think that would be an even bigger problem if using a 4K stone for that purpose.
But if the 4k glass is actually faster then the 1k Naniwa?
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
I agree with you @JPO, my ‘standard’ bevel setter is a 2k or 3k Shapton Glass for the reasons that you state - they’re faster and finer. Many times I’ll use the 4k if the bevels are well formed and the edge just needs to be refreshed.

My normal progression is Shapton Glass HR - Shapton Glass HC - JNat. Which Shapton grits that I choose depends on the condition of the edge. 3x grit steps are easy with Glass Stones because they were designed for that, and 4x steps are possible with just a small amount more time at the higher grit.
 
I have always thought synthetic stones more aggressive, than folks give them credit for. Years ago, I removed a chip and bevel set a razor with a 12k Naniwia Super Stone in about 80 circles and 206 half laps. Google, (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting).

For years I bevel set on a Nubatama 4k and it worked just fine. For my personal razors, I rarely drop below 8k to reset a bevel or remove small chips. BTW the Nubatama 4k is a great stone, reminiscent of a Jnat in feel, I don’t think they are available any longer.

I also used the 2k Naniwia Green Brick for a while with great results, quick cutting and shallow scratch pattern.

But since using the 8k Naniwia Snow White, another aggressive stone with a wide range, capable of a near mirror finish, and without the loading up issues of the 12k Super Stone, I bevel set on a King 1k and jump straight to the Snow White or 6k King and finish on naturals, Jnat or Ark. These stones are so aggressive, that 1k stria removal is a non-issue.

Now, bevel setting and chip repair on a high grit stone is more technique driven, but higher grit synthetic stones are aggressive. For new honers high grit bevel setting is a double edge sword, as the common problem for new honers is failure to fully set a bevel. A 1k minimizes that issue.

As always, YMMV.
 
I do bevel set with a 2k Shapton then go to the 4k than 10k. Only use the 1k glass if it's an eBay razor than has just gone through restoring because at that point it's a butter knife. I will try the 4k bevel set next time as I've never tried it. I quit going to the 8k after the 4k because the 10k seems to do the job just fine and makes a mirror finish. As my only 8k is a standard Naniwa.

This 4k glass acting the same as a 1k but less stria to clean up sounds a little hard to believe. But if Steve and Marty say so, who am I to argue?
 
I do bevel set with a 2k Shapton then go to the 4k than 10k. Only use the 1k glass if it's an eBay razor than has just gone through restoring because at that point it's a butter knife. I will try the 4k bevel set next time as I've never tried it. I quit going to the 8k after the 4k because the 10k seems to do the job just fine and makes a mirror finish. As my only 8k is a standard Naniwa.

This 4k glass acting the same as a 1k but less stria to clean up sounds a little hard to believe. But if Steve and Marty say so, who am I to argue?
The only thing I use my 8k Naniwa super stone for is edge jointing. I lightly drag the edge on the end of the stone. There is nothing new here. What might not be so well known is how gentle this stone is for that purpose. It only takes a few strokes on a finishing stone to bring the edge back. Doing the same jointing on a 12 Naniwa or other hard stones is much more aggressive, and sets the edge back much more.

The problem with doing heavy lifting with a fine stone is that the edge gets to thin before the apex is refined enough. Doing a few light edge jointings (is this a word:))keeps the apex nice and straight.
A common question on this forum is, can I manage with just one or two finishing stones. It is not ideal, but it works surprisingly well in my opinion.
 
I use the 4k GS after the 1.5k Pro a lot...very often actually; comparing the 1.5k Pro - 5k Pro vs 1.5k - 4k GS has been a 'thing' for a couple/few years here.
My 4k GS does not cut faster or more than the 1.5k Pro. Not on any steel I've had on them and there's been quite a variety there. I would not opt to use the 4k instead of the 1.5k for anything unless maybe if I wanted to do a slower version of a very minor bevel reset on a razor or just bump a knife edge a lil bit. I will sub the 4k GS in/out with the 5k Pro..and sometimes the 6k GS.

Haven't had a Chosera in a long time.. but the C1k and Pro 1.5k performed pretty so similarly for me that I considered them to be interchangeable.
After going back/forth with all of them, for a long while, gotta say that there's quite a notable difference between all of the 'bevel setters' here and the 4k GS..

I don't pay too much attention to 'grit' actually, not in the particle size way anyway. Maybe for the sake of simple discussion but the concept is flawed and the so-called data usually isn't all that reliable.
 
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I put the 4k Glass stone to the test last night. I was able to set four bevels without too much effort. And these were eBay razors that I had sanded and killed the hell out of the edge so nothing left of the bevel. I used the AX method including some circles and I had good bevels in just a few minutes. I then killed them and went back and did them again just to be sure. Check with a loupe and sure enough. Great bevels.

The 4K will set a bevel very well and the stria will be much less!
 
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I put the 4k Glass stone to the test last night. I was able to set four bevels without too much effort. And these were eBay razors that I had sanded and killed the hell out of the edge so nothing left of the bevel. I used the AX method including some circles and I had good bevels in just a few minutes. I then killed them and went back and did them again just to be sure. Check with a loupe and sure enough. Great bevels.

The 4K will set a bevel very well and the stria will be much less!
For a lot of people, including me, this would probably simplify the honing without much of a down side. You could probably get by with just the 4k and two more stones. A good 8k and a finishing stone. 4k to 0.85 micron gs seven will probably get you quite far.
 
I was going from 4k glass to 10k glass.
Gave a mirror polish. Then to the 20k. Three stones and going from start to finish. Nice!
Now to repair chips and such I'd rather go to a 1k to hog away what needs to be gone. But high angle honing on a DMT also fixes this right up.
 
I was going from 4k glass to 10k glass.
Gave a mirror polish. Then to the 20k. Three stones and going from start to finish. Nice!
Now to repair chips and such I'd rather go to a 1k to hog away what needs to be gone. But high angle honing on a DMT also fixes this right up.
I mostly use naturals but the Shapton Glass pro series has my interest. If like to get a 4k or 5k for knives and a10k for razors. Do you feel they're worth the investment?
 
I mostly use naturals but the Shapton Glass pro series has my interest. If like to get a 4k or 5k for knives and a10k for razors. Do you feel they're worth the investment?
There is the Shapton Glass series, and the Shapton Pro (Kuromako) series, and never the twain shall meet.

I can talk all day about the Glass series, but I know nothing about the Pro series. I've owned only two, a 120 that's awesome, and a 1500 I gave away, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because I didn't need it, having all those Glass stones, and besides, it was the perfect thing to give to an aspiring chef nephew, since it comes with its own honing stand.
 
I do like the Glass hones. But also don't know about the pros. When I found I could bevel set on the 4k I'm hooked hard now. I've enjoyed them also from when I first bought them. But now I don't think I will ever buy any others. So the Norton set and Shapton set can sit and collect dust. Ha.
Now all my natural finishers are still a treat to play with. But I only have 8 of those. :)
 
I do like the Glass hones. But also don't know about the pros. When I found I could bevel set on the 4k I'm hooked hard now.
I'm still skeptical about that. Oh, I'm not arguing with the results of the experiment. But when it turns out that a razor needs some reshaping, I can bear down hard on the SG 1000, and remove a considerable amount of metal. Can the 4000 do that? I'd need to see that experiment.

Now all my natural finishers are still a treat to play with. But I only have 8 of those. :)

Whoa. I thought I had enough natural finishers, but obviously I don't.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
The Pros are great stones. They last longer because they’re thicker. You might think this would make them a better value, and it might, but you’ll need at least 3 Pros before the finisher and only 2 Glass Stones before the finisher - the Glass stones are designed to go in 3x steps and can do 4x with just a little extra time - so you need fewer Glass Stones. However, I think that the grit is not graded as narrowly in the Pros as the Glass Stones, and could always see coarser scratches on the bevel after a Pro progression, fewer with the Glass Stones. In all fairness, these scratches never made any discernable difference in the finished edge quality.
 
I'm still skeptical about that. Oh, I'm not arguing with the results of the experiment. But when it turns out that a razor needs some reshaping, I can bear down hard on the SG 1000, and remove a considerable amount of metal. Can the 4000 do that? I'd need to see that experiment.



Whoa. I thought I had enough natural finishers, but obviously I don't.
You guys make me feel like an addict...🤣
 
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