A q. about honing wedges

[cotedupy]

A week or so ago I found a beaten up old stub tail wedge in a second hand shop. The horn scales were somewhat f-ed so I had to re-imagine them, but it was only $12, and a fun project.

It'd had some significant wear previously, but honing it up went pretty well nevertheless; the majority of the edge is very good, and shaved nicely, but I need to go back and focus on the curve at the tip a bit more. I did the early parts bench-honing, as you do I believe, and it struck me that honing a wedge is in some ways a lot easier and more comparable to knife sharpening than honing hollow ground razors.

As I understand it; the reason you can't use significant pressure when honing a hollow ground razor is because of the blade flexing, meaning that you wouldn't be hitting the very apex or bevel. This would be analogous to sharpening a knife at too low an angle, we'd call it sharpening the shoulders, or 'easing' them if you're doing it intentionally.

But with a near wedge that's not really a problem. I imagine I could have honed the thing very happily just on the Charnley I used to finish, by altering pressure. And it wouldn't have taken very long - if you can apply a decent amount of pressure on any of these razor finishing stones then they will happily set bevels or raise burrs on hard steel.

It would also probably open up the possibility of a more intricate and nuanced use 'hamaguri' sharpening. Which is probably quite a big topic in itself, but in some ways might be comparable to what people call 'torqueing'.

Are there any flaws in this thinking? Or drawbacks?

 

[rideon66]

Torqueing is one thing. Applying too much pressure on a wedge can still cause issues. Not like a hollow so more pressure can be applied if necessary. The problem is with these old wedges they are not always straight or even. So in Applying the pressure you can bring out or cause those deviations to be exacerbated on the bevel. Like even bevel part way then a big dip up wide bevel and then back down again or really a lot of things like that. Some of this has to do with the spine too. I had one were the hammer marks on the spine would cause dips on the bevel if you were heavy handed. This is why if the razor has a even bevel already I try and follow it bringing it back if I can. Cutting the new one is always more work and time making it even. Heavy handed can be faster, but cause more issues. Now you may get lucky sometimes and it won't be a problem, but when it is correcting it after the fact is even more work.

 

[JPO]

A week or so ago I found a beaten up old stub tail wedge in a second hand shop. The horn scales were somewhat f-ed so I had to re-imagine them, but it was only $12, and a fun project.

View attachment 1459777


It'd had some significant wear previously, but honing it up went pretty well nevertheless; the majority of the edge is very good, and shaved nicely, but I need to go back and focus on the curve at the tip a bit more. I did the early parts bench-honing, as you do I believe, and it struck me that honing a wedge is in some ways a lot easier and more comparable to knife sharpening than honing hollow ground razors.

View attachment 1459784


As I understand it; the reason you can't use significant pressure when honing a hollow ground razor is because of the blade flexing, meaning that you wouldn't be hitting the very apex or bevel. This would be analogous to sharpening a knife at too low an angle, we'd call it sharpening the shoulders, or 'easing' them if you're doing it intentionally.

But with a near wedge that's not really a problem. I imagine I could have honed the thing very happily just on the Charnley I used to finish, by altering pressure. And it wouldn't have taken very long - if you can apply a decent amount of pressure on any of these razor finishing stones then they will happily set bevels or raise burrs on hard steel.

It would also probably open up the possibility of a more intricate and nuanced use 'hamaguri' sharpening. Which is probably quite a big topic in itself, but in some ways might be comparable to what people call 'torqueing'.

Are there any flaws in this thinking? Or drawbacks?

I see nothing wrong with your reasoning. More pressure creates deeper striations, that can be more difficult to remove. The time you save initially might be lost during the finishing.
If you hone a hollow ground razor on a convex stone you deliberately flex the bevel to increase the cutting efficiency. Honing the bevel in sections can be really effective.

A rolling x stroke on a flat stone starting with torque can do the same thing, but it is allot more difficult because of the stabiliser , which effect the stiffness along the blade.

 

[Gamma]

Early work on a heavy grind is one thing, finishing work is another. Edge width on any nearly finished blade is fairly thin, it will be the same on a hollow as a wedge is bevel angle is identical. So I can still deflect the apex if pressure is used incorrectly. I would say that a full hollow will flex more, sure. But flexing the apex, regardless of grind, can impede edge refinement. Many ancient blades have thicker bevels, but even so - edge width is still a very narrow consideration, even at 20˚ or 22˚.
Most of my favored blades are heavy grinds, wedge, near wedge, etc - 1/2 hollow and heavier. I learned on blades like that long ago and have always favored them. When/If I get one that has rotten steel, or jacked up geometry, I will lean on it, to some extent, during the process of straightening it out. Once I am in a 'better place' though, I back off and honing is the same as it is with a singing hollow. Once a near wedge has been 'set up' with good geometry, bevel, edge - honing, re-honing, touching up is the same as it is with any other blade.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

^^^ This. Nice reply @Gamma
Sure the blade is thicker and heavier and can take more pressure, but after the bevel set and getting everything fixed and inline the way it needs to be, then it's back to proper honing techniques. That is where you get clean bevels and a fine apex. Now, I'm more of a Half Hollow guy. But everyone is different.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A one-inch piece of tape or two, in the middle of the spine would have make honing a smiling razor much easier.

The tape in the middle acts as a fulcrum and removes much of the unevenness of the blade and spine allowing you to hone the heel and toe by rocking and putting slight pressure on the edge.

You will still need to lift the heel in a rolling X stroke to get all of the toe honed and lift the toe to hone the heel. But your bevel will be more uniform.

You may get some wear marks on the heel and toe of the spine, but a piece of Kapton over the electrical tape will resolve that if it is an issue for you.

Pressure is always a double edge sword, use sparingly.

 

[lightfoot]

Only challenging aspect that I see has to do with how narrow the toe area is in reference to the width of the spine. You effectively have a much steeper bevel angle in this area hypothetically. You may have difficulty reaching all the way out to the edge up there even with a rolling stroke. You can always sharpie the bevel and pay special attention to this section…

 

[cotedupy]

Thanks for the replies all! Sounds like my general thinking was correct (first time for everything eh!).

And yep - obviously I didn't mean that I had finished the razor at higher pressure, I still did that with featherweight in hand honing like I'd normally do. Just that for bevel set and the early stages it seemed that I could use more pressure than usual, and get things done surprisingly quickly, on what was quite a beaten up razor. And without it coming back to haunt me later at finishing stages.

It's probably not something I'd do on a very smart old wedge, in better condition with less wear, but this one perhaps needed a slightly heavier handed approach.

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I am still having a little trouble with that bit at the end, presumably for the reason Devan mentioned above. I'll try again, but may just have to leave it. Doesn't massively bother me as the large part of the edge is very good, so it shaves nicely. And it was never going to be something I was going to be able to restore to completely pristine and perfect, though I'm quite happy with managing to save the middle parts of the old horn scales to refashion as a kamisori style handle.

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The tape in the middle acts as a fulcrum and removes much of the unevenness of the blade and spine allowing you to hone the heel and toe by rocking and putting slight pressure on the edge.

I'd never even thought of this as a possibility tbh, interesting and innovative solution. May give it a go here, and see if it helps. Ta!

 

[Empire straights]

Thanks for the replies all! Sounds like my general thinking was correct (first time for everything eh!).

And yep - obviously I didn't mean that I had finished the razor at higher pressure, I still did that with featherweight in hand honing like I'd normally do. Just that for bevel set and the early stages it seemed that I could use more pressure than usual, and get things done surprisingly quickly, on what was quite a beaten up razor. And without it coming back to haunt me later at finishing stages.

It's probably not something I'd do on a very smart old wedge, in better condition with less wear, but this one perhaps needed a slightly heavier handed approach.

---

I am still having a little trouble with that bit at the end, presumably for the reason Devan mentioned above. I'll try again, but may just have to leave it. Doesn't massively bother me as the large part of the edge is very good, so it shaves nicely. And it was never going to be something I was going to be able to restore to completely pristine and perfect, though I'm quite happy with managing to save the middle parts of the old horn scales to refashion as a kamisori style handle.

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I'd never even thought of this as a possibility tbh, interesting and innovative solution. May give it a go here, and see if it helps. Ta!

I lift the spine slightly when honing a wedge, I don't use tape though it could improve the edge. I hone them in hand with rolling x strokes from washita to black ark(with maybe a coticule/bbw inbetween to erase scratches faster). The bevels are way too wide for me so I probably need to fix that. I haven't shaved with/ honed a wedge in a long time but I know my last shave with one I honed was fantastic. I believe I put micro bevels on them because the bevel was so wide. It funny you posted this thread because I was contemplating returning to my edge Wade and butcher razors for a retry on honing/ shaving. I freehand honed them the exact same way I hone my pockets knives and the pressure(for the most part). My pocket knives will silently hht hair on my arms and legs and hht my beard 1/2"+ out without any real tugging,I can shave with them so I figured I'd do the wedges the same. Since I have those large bevels, like my knives, I figured I'd play with different slurries and stones for different edges. I've found my old llyn idwal slurries my new mystery green stone (suspected idwal) and that slurry is insane for knife edges. I'd like to throw a razor that I hone as a knife onto that and various Tam slurries on various charnwoods or coticule/ bbw slurries to see different finishes since the main bevels are are so wide.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

To hone a toe like that you will need to lift the heel, some considerably, a ¼ inch or more.

I hone tricky swooping toes and heels separately after the middle section is done. First figure out how much you will need to lift to hone the toe and how far up the curve you want to go. I like to go pretty high up the curve almost to where you are honing the top of the toe.

I use toes a lot for shaving, as well as heels, so I hone them all well. Paint the whole bevel with Sharpie ink, I like red or blue, (easy to see without magnification). Start at the base of the curve, (edge flat) and do a short stroke, while lifting. Look at your ink and see what came off. Keep lifting until you find how much is needed to hone the whole bevel at the toe.

You now know your limits. Hone in 3 parts, the curve near the flat edge, middle and top, around the corner. Once you have a good edge, (bevels meeting, but faceted) then do a blending stroke. Start with the razor flat on the stone, as you go down the stone slowly lift the heel, so you end the stroke with the heel high enough to hone the top of the toe or where you want the edge to end. It should only take a few strokes to blend the 3 bevels. Starting flat and ending high. Re-ink as needed.

Do the reverse on the return stroke, (start high end flat) finish with a full blending Rolling X lap to blend the toe to the flat part of the edge. Here again it should only take a few finish laps on each stone in the progression, once the bevel is set fully, the other stones go quickly. Do not use pressure, as you are honing a very small part of the bevel at a time.

Ink is your friend.

 

[rideon66]

On these old stubtails where the toe just doesn't want to hit right at all. I usually free hand just the toe near the edge of the stone to meet up with the rest of the good edge. As lifting and acrobatics can come into play sometimes to get the toe right. Once you figure out the toe and get it right and meet the rest of the edge. On final full edge strokes as you are coming near the toe and edge of the stone try and do the same acrobatics and if you take your time it will be one nice seamless edge. Hope this makes sense and is probably similar to what is above as in do it is sections and then bring them together. I have had several like this where the toe just does not hit and needed to do the freehand method at the toe.

 

[cotedupy]

On these old stubtails where the toe just doesn't want to hit right at all. I usually free hand just the toe near the edge of the stone to meet up with the rest of the good edge. As lifting and acrobatics can come into play sometimes to get the toe right. Once you figure out the toe and get it right and meet the rest of the edge. On final full edge strokes as you are coming near the toe and edge of the stone try and do the same acrobatics and if you take your time it will be one nice seamless edge. Hope this makes sense and is probably similar to what is above as in do it is sections and then bring them together. I have had several like this where the toe just does not hit and needed to do the freehand method at the toe.

Cheers. Yeah when I was trying to get the tip right the second time it struck me that that basically freehanding it seemed like it might be the only real option. Obviously I was slightly hesitant to try that on a razor, but maybe I'll give it a go this afternoon.

Basically freehanding on a Washita to set the bevel properly at the tip part, and then using a very exaggerated roll to blend it during final honing on something else, I think might get me somewhere. Doesn't really matter if I can't but would be fun to try, and all good learning anyway!

And obviously this kind of thing should really be my bread and butter. Almost all knives have curves that require this kind of lifting.

 

[Empire straights]

Cheers. Yeah when I was trying to get the tip right the second time it struck me that that basically freehanding it seemed like it might be the only real option. Obviously I was slightly hesitant to try that on a razor, but maybe I'll give it a go this afternoon.

Basically freehanding on a Washita to set the bevel properly at the tip part, and then using a very exaggerated roll to blend it during final honing on something else, I think might get me somewhere. Doesn't really matter if I can't but would be fun to try, and all good learning anyway!

And obviously this kind of thing should really be my bread and butter. Almost all knives have curves that require this kind of lifting.

I usually use a washita all the way up to the finishing hones. I am guilty of bouncing began a few different hones once I get my razor sharp enough, just to play with the finishes. Razors have been hooked on washitas(sometimes to finish) for a long time. If you ever snag an old, rust colored(like rust and cream speckles) hand cut one you might even find a razor stone with the right touch. Once broke in and burnished they can get pretty fine. When I want one finer I'll use water on it and sharpen a knife with pressure. Water will let it clog and get finer.

Edit: also try smoothing them with a coticule since there's garnets and they'll cut novaculite

 

[Empire straights]

Those big x strokes will help for sure. Doing tiny little "polishing" your circles can get you there to, focusing on a very tiny point. Almost all my edges had some weird geometry to them at the bevels and I just honed flat and evenly on a washita until all parts of the edge would lift oil. It'll go quick with a razor, male site your surface of #600+ and I would sharpen our thin a knife on it. Your semi translucent lily white would probably knock it out no problem, it even the white ones too.

 

[Steve56]

Tape is your wedge friend. I just honed 2 different near wedges, and neither would take/hold an edge below 18.5 degrees. I have no idea why, but Glen Murcurio has always preached 2-3 layers of electrical tape on wedges and that’s about right. Try a 19 degree bevel and see how it holds up.

 

[cotedupy]

Tape is your wedge friend. I just honed 2 different near wedges, and neither would take/hold an edge below 18.5 degrees. I have no idea why, but Glen Murcurio has always preached 2-3 layers of electrical tape on wedges and that’s about right. Try a 19 degree bevel and see how it holds up.

A couple of days ago I gave this one a proper session on a coticule going from heavy work through finishing (first time I'd done this on a coti actually), and I got the majority of the edge very good without tape. There was so much wear and use to the thing already that I suspect the edge angle is pretty high as is. Is there an accurate way of measuring it if I don't have digital calipers...?

The bit at the very toe is still eluding me, but I might leave for the moment and see if it falls into line over time. I'm slightly surprised and rather pleased with myself that I've got it shaving at all really!

 

[Steve56]

Digital calipers are cheap as chips Oli…

 

[Steve56]

If the toe/heel is eluding you, you probably need to lift the heel/toe, either in a rolling stroke or hone it in sections.

You do the same thing on knives.

 

[Empire straights]

A couple of days ago I gave this one a proper session on a coticule going from heavy work through finishing (first time I'd done this on a coti actually), and I got the majority of the edge very good without tape. There was so much wear and use to the thing already that I suspect the edge angle is pretty high as is. Is there an accurate way of measuring it if I don't have digital calipers...?

The bit at the very toe is still eluding me, but I might leave for the moment and see if it falls into line over time. I'm slightly surprised and rather pleased with myself that I've got it shaving at all really!

Hone that toe of yours as if you were finishing off the same on a very nice knife. No pressure, fast focused circles, long soft half strokes.

 

[cotedupy]

Digital calipers are cheap as chips Oli…

Oh really? I kinda assumed they'd be quite expensive. As long as I don't have to grease the palms of the deeply regrettable Mr. Bezos, I shall pick some up from the rest of the internet later.

I did spend quite a while trying to lift and hone that section separately and then blend in, but wasn't having much luck. I probably increased the length of the shaving edge a couple of mms this time around, but still not hitting the very end. It's something I suspect I'll just need to get a better feel for over time.

I was slightly surprised by how good the coti edge was though, given I haven't used one on razors before really. This is certainly one of the finest cotis I've had (don't like it for knives), but I effectively took it all the way from resetting the bevel on heavy slurry, through to finish. And I imagine your average c.18th or 19th man about town would think it a jolly good shave indeed!