A new kinda can of worms

[JSuiters]

I answered a question a few minutes ago on a different thread that got me wondering.

When do we stop calling an artisan an artisan and just a manufacturer? I mean some of these guys, I can think of at least three or four off the top of my head, produce and ship a boat load of product.

So I looked up the meaning and this really blurred any line.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/artisan

The part where the comma hits is what I talking about. ", or traditional methods."
So anyone, or company, that makes hot or cold processed soap is by definition an artisan. Williams, Proraso, hell even Barbasol could be called an artisan according the dictionary definition.

I know it may seem like I'm being all snooty and stuff but far from it. I enjoy good soap whether it comes from a factory or someones basement. I guess I'm just getting burned out on the artisan label.

But I would like to know the cutoff point though.

Cheers,
John

 

[de_shaver]

I agree the line can get blurred. For my own edification, I draw a clear line between artisan and mass-market. To me, TOBS, Trumper's, and Truefitt & Hill are mass-market, while Mike's natural soaps, Stirling, and CRSW are artisans.

While it's true that some of these artisans produce and ship a lot, I can live with an oversimplification that makes the world a lot easier to sort out in the relatively non-controversial world of shaving products.

 

[Cash_Stronomer]

I don't think we're supposed to label things anymore
Seriously though, I think 'Artisan' and I think a small garage with a couple guys or something.

 

[dabrock]

I believe this one gets beaten to death quite often on various forums. I guess my definition is that a true artisan is one, or a small group, that are personally involved with the making of their product so many of what we call artisan makers wouldn't qualify. Haslinger, Valbora, Castle Forbes, Klar and many others are more small manufacturers as I see it but due to the demand for soaps it's hard for an artisan to be in wide distribution under such a narrow definition. Of course, it's probably the whole point that a artisan isn't able to be in wide distribution because they are just an individual plying their craft and subject to the limitations of how much they can produce by hand.

This is just my view of the world and may not reflect reality as other see it.

 

[Jaidmaster]

If you can get the owner of the company on the phone or on a forum and he/she has a hand in the product...
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my perception!

 

[ackvil]

I think of an artisan as a one person shop, who makes his or product by hand.

 

[Whiskey Sour]

I think of an artisan as a one person shop, who makes his or product by hand.

+1. Agreed.

 

[JSuiters]

For those of you old enough to remember; when I think artisan Granny from the "Beverly Hillbillies" is what comes to mind. Somebody standing over a huge kettle on a fire mixing away with a paddle. Another example is Wozniak in a garage making an original Apple Computer with just some hand tools.

I also think an artisan does it for the love of the craft and not worried about profit and loss.

I just hate overused marketing buzzwords. I truly support small business and like trying things people come up with in a home based business. I personally don't like it when a word is used for the sake of selling a few thinks.

If you want to make money doing something you like, go for it. Just don't call yourself an artisan because you are a small business owner.

 

[dabrock]

For those of you old enough to remember; when I think artisan Granny from the "Beverly Hillbillies" is what comes to mind. Somebody standing over a huge kettle on a fire mixing away with a paddle. Another example is Wozniak in a garage making an original Apple Computer with just some hand tools.

I also think an artisan does it for the love of the craft and not worried about profit and loss.

I just hate overused marketing buzzwords. I truly support small business and like trying things people come up with in a home based business. I personally don't like it when a word is used for the sake of selling a few thinks.

If you want to make money doing something you like, go for it. Just don't call yourself an artisan because you are a small business owner.

That seems to be a very limited and quaint definition of what an artisan is, especially the craft for the it's own sake, which is more the definition of an amateur than anything I've ever seen for artisan. Some artisans are very well paid for their work and are doing it to make a good living and not just enjoy the craft. To me, artisans are small business owners by definition if they are selling their product to the general public, but what separates them from small manufacturing is the personal involvement they have in their product. Stirling is an artisan soap maker in my eyes but SV is a small manufacturer; where the dividing line is exactly we can debate forever, but the idea that making a profit automatically disqualifies you as an artisan is something I don't see in this equation.

 

[Luc]

It's an interesting question. We had a similar discussion a while back when we were looking at making a wiki page for Artisan products. Step 1 was to define what's an artisan and we hit a wall. Depending who you talk to, it could be that it's a one man shop (or two or three), some would say that the distribution is limited to a few shops (define a few) and the artisan's own website. Other would go with done by hand. If that's so, define done by hand? No mechanical tools used? A blender used? How many buttons can you press before you say it can't be done by hand?

I don't think it needs to be complicated but regardless of the definition, there will always be a couple of shops that are border line on the definition. If they expand, are they still artisans? If they barely don't make the cut, then you might get pitchforks because they should be considered and are an exception. Etc.

 

[bberg100]

A tough call. Is a vendor with a small number of staff yet churns out a large quantity or variety of product (thinking Stirling here, but there are others too) still an artisan? I think so since the owners are still involved in EVERY aspect of the operation. When business reaches a point they cannot, or don't want to be into every aspect, in other words hires enough staff they don't have to handle orders or shipping or making, then maybe they have left the artisan arena.

 

[JSuiters]

That seems to be a very limited and quaint definition of what an artisan is, especially the craft for the it's own sake, which is more the definition of an amateur than anything I've ever seen for artisan. Some artisans are very well paid for their work and are doing it to make a good living and not just enjoy the craft. To me, artisans are small business owners by definition if they are selling their product to the general public, but what separates them from small manufacturing is the personal involvement they have in their product. Stirling is an artisan soap maker in my eyes but SV is a small manufacturer; where the dividing line is exactly we can debate forever, but the idea that making a profit automatically disqualifies you as an artisan is something I don't see in this equation.

Merriam-Webster gives the following:

Full Definition of artisan

• 1: a worker who practices a trade or handicraft : craftsperson
  
• 2: one that produces something (as cheese or wine) in limited quantities often using traditional methods

"Artisan." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 27 Apr. 2016.


For me the "Limited Quantities" thing is the key phrase. As a matter of fact I love Stirling Soap. A top three shaving product. It was the first none mass market soap I tried. Try as I may, I can't find where they claim to be an artisan. Matter of fact I don't think they ever referred to themselves as an artisan soap maker but a company. That definition is confirmed since they sell coast to coast and even shipped to other countries. Nothing in limited quantities for them. That is a great thing too.
One of my favorite "new" soap makers, KShaveWorx, I would also consider them a small business and not an artisan. They are pumping out quite a bit of soap and want to grow.

What do I consider an artisan? Some of the small Etsy shops that only sell a few things. They might be good or not so good. You notice in the definition that it doesn't specify if the product is good or not. It just needs to be in small a volume.

Cheers,
John

 

[BSAGuy]

I think that artisanal is in the eyes of the beholder. It has become an over-used term.

 

[dabrock]

Merriam-Webster gives the following:

Full Definition of artisan

• 1: a worker who practices a trade or handicraft : craftsperson
• 2: one that produces something (as cheese or wine) in limited quantities often using traditional methods

"Artisan." Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 27 Apr. 2016.


For me the "Limited Quantities" thing is the key phrase. As a matter of fact I love Stirling Soap. A top three shaving product. It was the first none mass market soap I tried. Try as I may, I can't find where they claim to be an artisan. Matter of fact I don't think they ever referred to themselves as an artisan soap maker but a company. That definition is confirmed since they sell coast to coast and even shipped to other countries. Nothing in limited quantities for them. That is a great thing too.
One of my favorite "new" soap makers, KShaveWorx, I would also consider them a small business and not an artisan. They are pumping out quite a bit of soap and want to grow.

What do I consider an artisan? Some of the small Etsy shops that only sell a few things. They might be good or not so good. You notice in the definition that it doesn't specify if the product is good or not. It just needs to be in small a volume.

Cheers,
John

I agree with that definition of small batches, John, it was the idea that they weren't able to seek a profit that I found to fall outside this idea of what a artisan was. I worked as an artisan in another craft and attended craft fairs and many, like me, where just hobbyists who were doing it for a little extra money but there were others who made a living off of their craft. I also saw a lot of families that or small groups of friends who were also crafting together and I consider that artisanale as well. I mentioned before that it might be that we could never call anyone who has a product in IB, Fendrehan, Bull Goose, or other vendors to be a true artisan in that case.

 

[dabrock]

I think that artisanal is in the eyes of the beholder. It has become an over-used term.

Yeah, I hate buzz words, particularly "buzz word" because that's become so cliche!

 

[snowman]

Large manufacturer



Artisan

 

[JSuiters]

Large manufacturer



Artisan

I love this; but though they started small and made lower volume batches, the plan was for a business. So upon further review this one is disqualified. Nowhere in the definition does it state that the product is of high quality or even sold for that matter.

 

[dabrock]

I love this; but though they started small and made lower volume batches, the plan was for a business. So upon further review this one is disqualified. Nowhere in the definition does it state that the product is of high quality or even sold for that matter.

Oddly enough, I don't think the term artisan was a major selling point in their product lines anyway.

 

[Capisco Capisce]

I'll muddle the waters even further: I think we need to differentiate between an 'artisan', and an 'artisanal (type) product'!

To my mind: an artisan is a small shop with limited production capability.

But, it's also possible to produce an artisinal (or artisanal type) product in a larger capacity than what can be made by a single individual.

So in this manner, Shannon is an artisan, while Haslinger is a small manufacturer producing an artisanal product!

 

[snowman]

Oddly enough, I don't think the term artisan was a major selling point in their product lines anyway.

Good point.