Another vote for technique not necessarily always being the culprit. I feel a burn with aftershave even if I haven't shaved in days. Sensitive skin, I suppose.
That said, if my technique is poor I feel that burn MUCH more!!
A message to the new guys: If your AS burns like heck you're doing it wrong
- Thread starter Merkuryrising
- Start date
Another vote for technique not necessarily always being the culprit. I feel a burn with aftershave even if I haven't shaved in days. Sensitive skin, I suppose.
That said, if my technique is poor I feel that burn MUCH more!!
Yes, it's not 100%, because i would need to be writing for the next 10 days. Like i said, the removal of cells, is something "normal" when shaving. But the "sting" comes due to the alcohol damage and not all feel it the same (vodka drinker). Otherwise, you wouldn't need the alcohol to feel burn, you would feel the burn just after shaving. Why don't you feel it? Because unless you have cut through the 5th layer, there are no nerve terminals, so you can't feel "damage".
As to the rest of experiments, unfortunately not all people have the same pain threshold and neither the same sensitivity everywhere nor the same skin type. But just an a funny reference, read the "sensory homunculous" and you will understand visually, why something on your face and especially in your lip and throad area, will be more easily perceived than something on your forehead and why so many have "sensitive lip area" or "chin area" or "i feel my throat irritated".
Cortical homunculus - Wikipedia
How to say. External skin abrasions, when humans developed were "predicted by mother nature", but the skin was built in such way for this to be expected. Having abrasions "healed" by aftershave, wasn't, because the skin doesn't see alcohol as "good". Hence it burns.
And the more time someone uses aftershaves, the less he will perceive the burn. It's not because you necessarily got better. It's because much like the vodka drinker one glass of vodka no longer makes you cough your guts out. But the vodka you drink still damages your liver just like when you were 17.
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Or everyone's skin is different. If you have oily skin does that create a barrier for alcohol? If you have dry skin, do more layers of dead skin cells clump together like scales and create a barrier, or does it create micro cracks that allow the alcohol through? I've seen old ladies that look like they have tanned their whole lives and their skin is so tough it bent needles when trying to start IVs. So certainly there can be the way skin works in general, and then how an individual's skin works.
Here's a final visual hint, to understand how things are more complicated and how it's also nearly impossible for every shaver to have "no damage" to his skin when shaving, as well as how different parts of the skin are harder to penetrate for alcohol (as if it wasn't enough that skin in various parts of the body has different density and type of receptors. For instance, you wouldn't want your hands to be as touchy as your face and mother nature has thought of that too).
This is skin:
This is also skin:
The 2 photos have a big difference in the quantity of keratine strands of the surface. On the face, where you shave, those strands, will be wiped off. The rest of your skin, has more or less, according to how often and how much your scrub your skin there when washing and what part of your body is. The more you have, the less penetrable your skin is (alcohol included). Your face, because of the fact that you shave and because the skin isn't perfectly flat, will be the part that is the most "barren" and thus susceptible to penetration. Keratine strands are in practice "old" skin, on its way of detaching itself from your skin. It's what women try to deliberatly get rid off with peelings, scrubs, and such, because the "younger" skin below is softer, looks better, etc. But it's also more vulnerable. The more uneven one's skin is, the more he will scrape something "more" during the shave, because the skin isn't flat and the blade unfortunately can't see. So some scraping is inevitable. So your face looks more like the 1st picture, while the skin of your body that you don't shave, looks more like the 2nd picture (and is also less susceptible to outside aggression, including alcohol).
Another interesting thing, is that as skin ages, the "protrusions" of the outer skin towards the inner skin (the darker purple things that go into the lighter purple), tend to flatten. It's part of older skin becoming less elastic. It happens in reality in the inner skin too. The loss of elasticity, further leads to loss of sensitivity. Because loss of elasticity, means that less nerve terminals can be mobilized by a pressure stimulus. This also leads to a feeling where "one doesn't feel much difference between a blade and another anymore when gliding on his skin". One way to look at it, is that "i got so good where dull or sharp, rough or smooth, all blades feel the same on my skin". Another is that "old age has also its good parts, blade edges feel much more so alike".
Pretty much when a kid smells something and you don't or the kid hears something and you hear nothing, something similar exists also for the skin and different people have different original sensibility too and degrades more or less rapidly with age and "use" (a fisherman, chronically exposed to sun and salt water, will have a far more insensitive skin than a young boy).
By all means, this is just a theory, i just think it's an interesting one. And remember: You can't feel without nerves! If you feel pain, it means the AS has reached the light purple area. Because that's where nerves and blood vessels are. If your blade reaches the light purple area, you will see blood. So, the AS goes "where no blade has gone before".
Summary:
- Weeper= you 've cut into the light purple, hit a blood vessel, but not hit a nerve yet.
- Nick= you 've cut into the light purple, hit a blood vessen and hit a nerve too.
- Aftershave burn= alcohol has penetrated in unknown quantity and extension the light purple area, diffusely, all over the area of application and stimulated multiple nerves (diffused pain).
This is skin:
This is also skin:
The 2 photos have a big difference in the quantity of keratine strands of the surface. On the face, where you shave, those strands, will be wiped off. The rest of your skin, has more or less, according to how often and how much your scrub your skin there when washing and what part of your body is. The more you have, the less penetrable your skin is (alcohol included). Your face, because of the fact that you shave and because the skin isn't perfectly flat, will be the part that is the most "barren" and thus susceptible to penetration. Keratine strands are in practice "old" skin, on its way of detaching itself from your skin. It's what women try to deliberatly get rid off with peelings, scrubs, and such, because the "younger" skin below is softer, looks better, etc. But it's also more vulnerable. The more uneven one's skin is, the more he will scrape something "more" during the shave, because the skin isn't flat and the blade unfortunately can't see. So some scraping is inevitable. So your face looks more like the 1st picture, while the skin of your body that you don't shave, looks more like the 2nd picture (and is also less susceptible to outside aggression, including alcohol).
Another interesting thing, is that as skin ages, the "protrusions" of the outer skin towards the inner skin (the darker purple things that go into the lighter purple), tend to flatten. It's part of older skin becoming less elastic. It happens in reality in the inner skin too. The loss of elasticity, further leads to loss of sensitivity. Because loss of elasticity, means that less nerve terminals can be mobilized by a pressure stimulus. This also leads to a feeling where "one doesn't feel much difference between a blade and another anymore when gliding on his skin". One way to look at it, is that "i got so good where dull or sharp, rough or smooth, all blades feel the same on my skin". Another is that "old age has also its good parts, blade edges feel much more so alike".
Pretty much when a kid smells something and you don't or the kid hears something and you hear nothing, something similar exists also for the skin and different people have different original sensibility too and degrades more or less rapidly with age and "use" (a fisherman, chronically exposed to sun and salt water, will have a far more insensitive skin than a young boy).
By all means, this is just a theory, i just think it's an interesting one. And remember: You can't feel without nerves! If you feel pain, it means the AS has reached the light purple area. Because that's where nerves and blood vessels are. If your blade reaches the light purple area, you will see blood. So, the AS goes "where no blade has gone before".
Summary:
- Weeper= you 've cut into the light purple, hit a blood vessel, but not hit a nerve yet.
- Nick= you 've cut into the light purple, hit a blood vessen and hit a nerve too.
- Aftershave burn= alcohol has penetrated in unknown quantity and extension the light purple area, diffusely, all over the area of application and stimulated multiple nerves (diffused pain).
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Most PAA aftershaves contain both alcohol AND Alum...they give me great burn...I love it...
I mostly agree, since the burn gets worse if your shave is bad. But, if you have sensitive skin like me, there are other causes. Such as menthol. I can't stand it; that stuff burns me regardless of shave quality.
If you have similar reaction to menthol toothpastes or menthol ointments, then it's not your sensitive skin, it's menthol allergy. Same if you are allergic to aspirin or mint. It's correlated to menthol.
I think some aftershaves have a different kind of burn, especially ones with some witch hazel and some moisturizers in them. I use them after I shower and they still have some kind of burn. Something like fine on the other hand has very simple ingredients, and has no burn at all, just a small sting.
When i first started shaving, it was with Gilette sensor, from my older brother's stash. And i as shaving WTG 1 pass plus buffing in the most difficult areas. As soon as i put alcohol aftershave, it would burn all over my face. Anyone who has shaved with Gilette sensor WTG, knows that hurting yourself, is impossible.
Fast forward yesterday, i could still feel burn 11 hours after shaving, despite having had a very comfortable shave, with the mildest DE razor out there. As a matter of fact, before seeing this thread, i wrote about it in the Trig Silver Edge Blue thread.
This said, saying that the more you scrape your skin the more the aftershave will burn, is normal, but instead of worry about something that doesn't burn, you should worry about what gives you burn. Because if you use a balm and you don't get burn, but you use alcohol and you get burn, then you should worry more, about why alcohol gives you burn and the balm doesn't. Unless having burn sensation is something good... Alcohol: burns your freshly shaved skin, can kill living microorganisms, cause liver damage and dementia. Why would your skin see benefit from this? Even survivalist experts, say that if you are in a situation with little water, drinking alcohol won't help you live, it will dehydrate you and make you die faster. That the cosmetic industry took advantage of alcohol's solvent and evaporating properties to put fragrance and sell it for $, doesn't mean it's good for the skin. If snake oil had similar properties they would have very well being using snake oil.
Instead of thinking of the alcohol AS as "a good way to perceive how good the shave was", one should think "why doesn't my balm want to show me how bad my shave was?". Why does the alcohol AS burn my badly shaved skin and my balm doesn't?
Another good question worth pondering, is, how many dermatological products do i have by medical prescription in my medical cabinet, with alcohol as no1 ingredient? If alcohol is so good for the skin, surely someone must have noticed.
The best advice to newbies is: Your skin, wasn't waiting for Pinaud Clubman to find a way to tell you when you 've done damage. It has developed its own mechanisms some tens of thousand years ago. And actually, pain, was never meant for the organism to signal something "good". If you have just shaved and i come and pour boiling water on your skin, i am sure that it will hurt more too, in case you had a bad shave. But you should worry more about the boiling water than the bad shave. The difference is that alcohol doesn't do such an evident damage, so people "enjoy the sting". On the other hand, people were even buying radioactive water, toothpastes, blankets, amulets and such, because "radioactivity was good for you". And it didn't even sting!
P.S. People with sensitive skin, are more susceptible to "external damaging agents", and so can perceive what others can't. Even among people with non sensitive skin, the perception threshold is different and it is also different according to the age and chronic exposure. Interestingly, when i first use Proraso White, i felt an immediate cooling feeling that was almost uncomfortable,face numbing, because it has a bit of menthol. In fact i remember putting it on my face and stopping surprised saying "what is this? this isn't supposed to be Proraso Green!". Now that i use it almost daily for some time, i can no longer perceive it.
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I 've never heard of witch hazel, but from a wikipedia article, it appears to be a north american plant with soothing properties and the scientific name (Hamamelis), as well as the properties of the plant, seem suspiciously similar to chamomile, which is common in Europe and which by coincidence, is included in Nivea Sensitive balm. So it might not be a coincidence. This said, even chamomile in some people can cause allergy. The same could be possible for witch hazel. As far as alcohol based aftershaves are concerned, whatever is dissolved in the alcohol, will also penetrate the skin, following alcohol's flow.
I tend to find I only get "the sting" if I spalsh AS on straight after, for me it only stings when my pores are open? Shave, Cold water splash, AS = No Sting,. Forget to close my pores then my eyes water lol :') but if i shave at night then it Post Shave Balm anyway :-D
shavefan
I’m not a fan
Very interesting thread. My $.02 FWIW...
I've never been a huge "post shave product" user. My thinking has always been "why would I want to bathe my face in harsh alcohol after a shave?". I understand that some believe in the virtues of the "sealing" or "antiseptic" benefits of an alcohol AS, but to me this doesn't make practical sense in modern times.
What I mean is, many years ago (like, centuries) shaving was probably a very risky undertaking. Bacteria and germs were barely understood, if at all (depending on the time period) but what was known is that high alcohol content helped heal wounds and lessened the chance of infection & sickness. I mean, people were shaving with fairly rudimentary blades that were not sterilized, or discarded and replaced on a regular bases like in todays world. I believe this is why ointments such as "Bay Rum" came about. High alcohol, fairly pleasant smelling stuff that, if splashed on after a shave, noticeably reduced the chance for infection.
Fast forward to the 20th century when we have a much better understanding of germs and ways to combat them. I keep my shaving hardware clean and sterilized on a regular basis. I have alcohol in my bathroom, I use it to clean and sterilize my hardware, but I rarely use an alcohol based splash on my face. Post shave, I have plenty of feedback on the quality of shave without the need to feel "da burn"...
Edit: I should add that even in modern times, regions that do not have access to clean water, alcohol AS probably is beneficial to lessening the chance of infection.
I've never been a huge "post shave product" user. My thinking has always been "why would I want to bathe my face in harsh alcohol after a shave?". I understand that some believe in the virtues of the "sealing" or "antiseptic" benefits of an alcohol AS, but to me this doesn't make practical sense in modern times.
What I mean is, many years ago (like, centuries) shaving was probably a very risky undertaking. Bacteria and germs were barely understood, if at all (depending on the time period) but what was known is that high alcohol content helped heal wounds and lessened the chance of infection & sickness. I mean, people were shaving with fairly rudimentary blades that were not sterilized, or discarded and replaced on a regular bases like in todays world. I believe this is why ointments such as "Bay Rum" came about. High alcohol, fairly pleasant smelling stuff that, if splashed on after a shave, noticeably reduced the chance for infection.
Fast forward to the 20th century when we have a much better understanding of germs and ways to combat them. I keep my shaving hardware clean and sterilized on a regular basis. I have alcohol in my bathroom, I use it to clean and sterilize my hardware, but I rarely use an alcohol based splash on my face. Post shave, I have plenty of feedback on the quality of shave without the need to feel "da burn"...
Edit: I should add that even in modern times, regions that do not have access to clean water, alcohol AS probably is beneficial to lessening the chance of infection.
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FYI, for my cologne I take the lead from a youtuber and put it anywhere but my face and neck. Boom, no sting. Usually wrists and back of neck.
It's funny you mention that stuff. That's what I thought of when I saw the title of this thread.
Personally I love that stuff, I have a friend that liked to too. But in only a few months of wet shaving he's gone through a bunch of razors settled on an R41 with the sharpest blades he can find and now puts the PAA down because it burns too bad. It's not their fault he wants to peel his face off every shave.
Honestly, if that's what he wants and what works for him that's totally fine. It's his shave. I just don't like when people put down products because they want to take things to extremes.
And another quick note. If anyone's having a problem with an aftershave product try throwing some on when you haven't shaved. If there's something in it that irritates your skin it will irritate your skin then too.
I agree. The whole thing with the bacteria is a bit overblown, as we have bacteria that live on our skin, including some very nasty ones, but unless the immunitary system is compomised, they won't provoke disease. About 20-25% of population is carrier of Staphylococcus Aureus, which amongst other things, loves the nostrils and the skin around it. However they don't die and every time you swirl your brush on your face and back to the cream jar, you transfer bacteria back and forth. Unless you intend to slice half your face open, the immune system can deal with the bacterial load of a weeper. As a matter of fact, logic would say to just use the alcohol aftershave, on the weeper, not on the your entire face. And if you want to really wipe clean your face of every living bacteria on it, there are actually other, better products, that are pretty cheap, don't sting and are much better disinfectants than alcohol (povidone-iodine). Of course it doesn't look as pleasant and doesn't smell like vetiver.
I 've seen the same video. The guy from Executive Shaving. And he is right.
shavefan
I’m not a fan
I agree with you that the science is slightly off above for a couple of simple reasons.
1. Alcohol burns more when I have razor burn then when I don't. It still burns though one way it's a satisfying slow burn with irritation it's a sharp and sudden sting.
2. I can put some 99% isopropyl alcohol on my inner arm inner leg cheeks and forehead where I don't shave and there is literally no burn and these are soft skinned areas similar to the face.
Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
Ok, this is my last post, i realize that despite my effort, it might be too long to read and remember everything, as well as understand all the subtle references, but here goes one last thing:
1) Nobody here talked about razor burn. Razor burn is skin inflammation. Inflammated skin has its barrier properties reduced by definition.
2) Unfortunately, my attempt to show with pictures didn't work either. Neither talking about individual perception. Face is subject to the most external cheratine removal during shaving. The rest of your skin, has more or less, according to how much scrubbing action your apply and how often, when you wash. "Soft skin" doesn't mean that automatically has skin with little cheratine, it may also mean it has more fat underneath and once more, it would all go again to this:
Cortical homunculus - Wikipedia
And this
Threshold of pain - Wikipedia
And lastly:
Toxic Effects Isopropyl Alcohol - Medical Disability Guidelines
Alcohol in Skincare – Advanced Dermatology
And lastly, google "12 Skin and shaving questions for a dermatologist" since we have to deal with the marvellous ToS of this forum and you may hear it from a pro. The part in question is: "You want to avoid products high in alcohol that can cause dryness and irritation".
Or better yet, next time you visit a dermatologist, why don't you ask him/her: "Doctor, is alcohol aftershave good for my skin care? I do enjoy the sting!". And post back the reply for everyone to read.
P.S.: Even if your inner thigh is insensible to alcohol, while my skin below my eye isn't, you should still wonder why it burns your face and when was the last time that mother nature let you have burning sensation which was from something favourable to your health. That's all.
P.S.2: People with more sensitive skin than yours, don't lie. They just perceive and take damage for things that you don't perceive because of different threshold. Ever heard of dogs barking before an earthquake while you hear nothing? That's the equivalent.
P.S.3: Do you know why alcohol burns your tongue or throat and not your inner thigh? Because your inner thigh, aside from low pain sensibility, has a fairly thick and intact outer keratine layer. Your tongue has the same cover as your skin, without the extra keratine layer, much like your shaved face. It's actually worse than your shaved face. So alcohol penetrates fast before evaporating. And so it burns.
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I don't think it's an allergic reaction, it only burns for a moment, then it feels very soothing, but i'm not really sure why it burns more than A/S without it, very odd. It does add a lot of nice properties to the post shave so it's absolutely worth the burn in my book.
