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A Dissenting Opinion (Long)

What follows is based on my experience, and PMs and phone conversations with experienced members of this forum who have had similar experiences. Frankly, I'm reluctant to pose this, and I do so only in the hope that it might help those new to our community.

We often advise newcomers to start out with a professionally-honed razor so they will learn what "sharp" is, and to take one major variable out of play. While I know this advice is well-meaning, I have come to believe it is wrong, and may impede some in the early going.

I have had six new razors honed by three different honemeisters, all well-known in shaving forums. Two blades were perfect, two were barely adequate, and two needed further work. One of these did not cut arm hair at skin level and had no discernible effect on my beard after two passes.

I always do a 100X micro exam, an HHT and TPT on a new razor. Not surprisingly, only the two well-honed razors performed as expected. The one that did not shave at all looked perfect under the microscope, however.

I paid for each of these honings. I did not strop any of the blades prior to use. I did strop the four less-than-perfect blades after the first shave, resulting in minimal improvement.

I did not send any of the blades back to the original honers. I'm sure that, given the reputations of these gentlemen, and based on emails and phone conversations I've had with them, they all would have gladly tried to make things right. But the fact is that I wanted to learn how to hone myself. I have since managed to make these razors shave-ready.

During a conversation with one of these honers, I was told that the only way to test for shave-readiness was to do a WTG pass down my cheek. If it cut hair, he said, it was shave-ready. Not surprisingly, his was the dullest razor.

I do not consider a razor sharp unless it can cut the moustache and chin areas with minimal tugging and skipping (if any). Otherwise, for my purposes, it is not sharp enough.

Newcomers should be aware that getting a razor professionally honed does not ensure it is sharp. They should recognize that a razor that pulls, skips, or does not reduce their beard effectively may not reflect poor technique (although it certainly can), but may simply be a razor that is not sharp enough, regardless where it came from or who honed it.

Nrecomers should also understand that the sharpness of their razor is ultimately their responsibility. They must either get comfortable doing this themselves, or find someone through trial-and error who gets it right consistently. The two well-honed razors I received came from the same individual.

I have no axe to grind here, and if I have offended anyone, please understand that is not my intent.Everyone I have dealt with has showed me every consideration and been more than willing to offer andice and help. They clearly love what they do and love to share their enthusiasm for straight shaving. My goal is only not to mislead others who want to learn this skill with false assurances.

A professionally-honed razor, in my experience, does not take the variable of shave-readiness off the table, and I will not advise anyone new to straight razor shaving that it does.
 
This has been a public service announcement.

No but really I get what your saying. I myself was lucky to have my razor honed right in front of me by another member, so I could test it out periodically. I just purchased a Norton 4k/8k so after some further honing lessons I should be self sufficient.

To add to the thread, never trust the words "Shave Ready"
 
This has been a public service announcement.

No but really I get what your saying. I myself was lucky to have my razor honed right in front of me by another member, so I could test it out periodically. I just purchased a Norton 4k/8k so after some further honing lessons I should be self sufficient.

To add to the thread, never trust the words "Shave Ready"


It is a subjective term, to be sure. However, always trust the words "YMMV." What's shave ready for my beard, may not be shave ready for your beard, etc.
 

ouch

Stjynnkii membörd dummpsjterd
Further proof of that classic line- a honemeister is a guy with a hone and an ego. :tongue_sm

Still, even if your professionally prepared, "shave ready" straight isn't quite like this
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if you attempt to do it yourself without any idea of what you're supposed to approximate, you may run into the same problem that befell the Talosians when they similarly had no guide:
proxy.php
 
Further proof of that classic line- a honemeister is a guy with a hone and an ego. :tongue_sm

Still, even if your professionally prepared, "shave ready" straight isn't quite like this
proxy.php


if you attempt to do it yourself without any idea of what you're supposed to approximate, you may run into the same problem that befell the Talosians when they similarly had no guide:
proxy.php

This is a lesser-known justification for General Order 7. Although it did not make the final cut of the episode, Captain Pike actually received a nasty cut from an improperly honed Talosian straight razor, and not even their power of illusion could ease his pain.
 
Point taken. This was my experience: I've had razors honed by 4 different guys. I only had problems with one of them; it shaved, but not comfortably. I like the idea of newbies getting a shave-ready straight, but they may also need a good finishing hone. My advice is, don't start straight shaving unless you're comfortable with the idea of keeping your razor honed yourself. If you don't want to hone, get a Sanguine shavette.
 
if you attempt to do it yourself without any idea of what you're supposed to approximate, you may run into the same problem that befell the Talosians when they similarly had no guide:
proxy.php


But, but, but... they tried their best. :blush:
 
I've had about 20 razors honed by 10 different guys and almost all of them had been done right.
Yes, there was one that was on the low end in the range, but that person doesn't offer honing services, except if you buy one of his razors. He also doesn't shave-test them before sending, so it's not surprising that it could've been done better. The other razor from the same person was great.

They may not have been the sharpest possible or the smoothest possible, but they all were able to provide a good shave.

I posted somewhere that as long as I don't need to use a stone coarser than 8000 grit to tune a razor to my liking it is shave-ready.

Actually I forgot about one other razor with wavy edge (100x magnification) coming from a person who is 'professionally' honing them. As expected it didn't shave very well, but I had to try it. I guess that would fail my definition of shave-ready, but people seem to be on average happy with that guy, so it may have been a fluke.


And of course not all razors are created equal. i wouldn't expect every low end razor to shave as good as say puma, ti, or boker, althought some could and would.

But if you want perfection you better be able to do it yourself, or find somebody else whose edges you like that much, there's never been a question about this.
 
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By gugi: I posted somewhere that as long as I don't need to use a stone coarser than 8000 grit to tune a razor to my liking it is shave-ready.

I really like that definition. If there is no reason to go coarser than 8k then I will be easily able to finish the razor to my specific liking. All I am doing at that point is touching up the razor so it feels good to my face. Everyones face/beard/what they like/ is obviously different.
 
I think the point is that pre-honed does not necessarially mean shave ready. The fact is, unless the honer shaves with the razor, you are paying for a best effort hone job. This is not meant to imply anyone offering honing services is willfully misleading n00bs. Let's face it, until a shaver develops some skill and experience with straights, all they really need is sharp. For instance, the distinction between a razor finished on CrOx and diamond paste was certainly lost on me for quite some time.
 
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What follows is based on my experience, and PMs and phone conversations with experienced members of this forum who have had similar experiences. Frankly, I'm reluctant to pose this, and I do so only in the hope that it might help those new to our community.

We often advise newcomers to start out with a professionally-honed razor so they will learn what "sharp" is, and to take one major variable out of play. While I know this advice is well-meaning, I have come to believe it is wrong, and may impede some in the early going.

I have had six new razors honed by three different honemeisters, all well-known in shaving forums. Two blades were perfect, two were barely adequate, and two needed further work. One of these did not cut arm hair at skin level and had no discernible effect on my beard after two passes.

I always do a 100X micro exam, an HHT and TPT on a new razor. Not surprisingly, only the two well-honed razors performed as expected. The one that did not shave at all looked perfect under the microscope, however.

I paid for each of these honings. I did not strop any of the blades prior to use. I did strop the four less-than-perfect blades after the first shave, resulting in minimal improvement.

I did not send any of the blades back to the original honers. I'm sure that, given the reputations of these gentlemen, and based on emails and phone conversations I've had with them, they all would have gladly tried to make things right. But the fact is that I wanted to learn how to hone myself. I have since managed to make these razors shave-ready.

During a conversation with one of these honers, I was told that the only way to test for shave-readiness was to do a WTG pass down my cheek. If it cut hair, he said, it was shave-ready. Not surprisingly, his was the dullest razor.

I do not consider a razor sharp unless it can cut the moustache and chin areas with minimal tugging and skipping (if any). Otherwise, for my purposes, it is not sharp enough.

Newcomers should be aware that getting a razor professionally honed does not ensure it is sharp. They should recognize that a razor that pulls, skips, or does not reduce their beard effectively may not reflect poor technique (although it certainly can), but may simply be a razor that is not sharp enough, regardless where it came from or who honed it.

Nrecomers should also understand that the sharpness of their razor is ultimately their responsibility. They must either get comfortable doing this themselves, or find someone through trial-and error who gets it right consistently. The two well-honed razors I received came from the same individual.

I have no axe to grind here, and if I have offended anyone, please understand that is not my intent.Everyone I have dealt with has showed me every consideration and been more than willing to offer andice and help. They clearly love what they do and love to share their enthusiasm for straight shaving. My goal is only not to mislead others who want to learn this skill with false assurances.

A professionally-honed razor, in my experience, does not take the variable of shave-readiness off the table, and I will not advise anyone new to straight razor shaving that it does.

I just bought my first straight and used it 3 times so far. To paraphrase what you said mockingly, it cuts nicely on my cheek, but not my chin or moustache, so it must not be shave ready, right? How can I really know?

While I appreciate what you're saying, as a newbie, I'm having a hard time translating it into practical advice. One way is to try out my newbie honing, stropping, and shaving skills on my face from day 1. The only other take-away seems to be to get a razor that's supposed to be ready, try it, and second guess whether it's good enough. A wacky, but possible alternative is to pass the razor around to a few hone meisters for comparison. Doing this with two razors, I wouldn't be in a position to know whether it was the razor or the hone or me. With one razor, it'll take quite some time passing it around like that, using it in between.

Not annoyed, or even looking for answers, but this does seem to be a bit of a dilemma.
 
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I'm having a hard time translating it into practical advice.
indeed this is the problem with threads like this. there really isn't much practicality that can be derived from them

One way is to try out my newbie honing, stropping, and shaving skills on my face from day 1.
And the statistics from people who have tried that shows that it's rather ineffective approach. Still there are plenty of people who think that on their first 5 tries they can match sufficiently close somebody who has honed hundreds and thousands of razors. It's not a rocket science, or even a science, it's just rubbing a piece of metal to a piece of stone, but for most people it takes some prctice.

The only other take-away seems to be to get a razor that's supposed to be ready, try it, and second guess whether it's good enough. A wacky, but possible alternative is to pass the razor around to a few hone meisters for comparison.
Yes that would be the the best option to ensure the razor is shave-ready. It's like getting a second or third or fourth opinion, if you don't quite trust the previous. And, of course it has to be the same razor, otherwise you'll end up with the conclusion that only the best razors can be shave-ready.

Not annoyed, or even looking for answers, but this does seem to be a bit of a dilemma.
Well, the advice we generally give is that if you can shave the easiest parts of your face you should consider your razor shave-ready and concentrate on developing good technique. In virtually all cases after a month or two people do get convinced that it really wasn't the razor's fault, even if it weren't the sharpest possible one.
 
This posting causes me quite a bit of concern. If someone new to shaving cannot trust well-known honing services to do a good job, that is a problem for the new shaver. This is not a "Dissenting Opinion." Rather it is an indictment or at least strong criticism of those offering honing services, or of at least two well-known honers who are unnamed.

I had not heard about significant poor quality work from well-known honers previously. Indeed more the opposite. As Gugi says he has used 10 different folks for 20 different razors.

I am not questioning your research methods, much less your motives, but how did you come to be sending out 6 razors to 3 honers, and to be having PMs and phone calls with dissatisfied honemeister customers. I had never seem anyone express dissatisfaction with a honemeister or I would have PM'd them myself (as I plan on PMing you!) so that I found the best guy for myself. And you know enough to do a 100X micro exam, an HHT and a TPT, and you enough rather quickly to hone them up to snuff. You do not sound like the typical new guy, at least in the typical new guy was me.

The process you are talking about of taking responsibility for the sharpness off your razor yourself even when you are first starting off was exactly the path I followed with my first straight, which I knew was not going to be shave ready, and which I managed to get up to shave readiness. But that experience is exactly why I have said that that was not a good idea, and that I was very foolish to waste my time and energy re-inventing the wheel, well reasonably priced honers abound! If a new shaver has to hone his own razor just starting out, I am not sure that my advice is not to both with a straight razor at all. Too much uncertainty, too much effort.

Do we need some kind of anonymous rating system on B&B for honers? EBay does it, I guess. Seems prone to inaccurate results. What I have seen over time in postings is newbies complaining about the sharpness of razors that turned out to be plenty sharp.

I guess my question would be, is it common out there for folks on this forum to have been dissatisfied with the job well-know honemeisters have done for them? If yes, then this seems like a problem. If no, I do not know what to say. Every hone job may not come out perfect, and you can always send it back to the honer.
 
I usually love dissenting opinions but, in this case, I absolutely do not agree.

I bought my first straight in 1980. There was no Internet and no one to help me. The clerk sold me a Dovo #41 inox and a strop and gave me 5 minutes of instructions. The razor wasn't shave ready and it, literally, ripped up my face. I went back two times to the store asking if, possibly, the razor wasn't sharp enough. The clerk insisted that the razors come sharp from the factory. On the second visit, a customer overheard my questions and intervened saying, "he needs a hone". The clerk reluctantly sold me a Swaty barber hone and that solved my problem.

This is the situation that we are trying to avoid by recommending that a newbie have their first razor professionally honed. Whether or not that honing is the ultimate, in your opinion, is irrelevant. The important thing is that it shouldn't be sh*t.

Of course, a straight shaver should own, and know how to use, a hone. But barber hones are not that easy to find anymore and it isn't reasonable to expect that someone will make an investment in hones before they know whether they like straight shaving or not. Let a new guy get a few shaves with a, relatively, decent razor before deciding to spend more money.

You know very well that you can get a good shave with razors that are more or less, but not perfectly, sharp. If a razor is a little dull, you can adapt your style to it. By casting doubt on the quality of the honemeisters in general you have just added another layer of confusion to an already very confusing situation.

In short, I don't think your post was helpful.
 
I just bought my first straight and used it 3 times so far. To paraphrase what you said mockingly, it cuts nicely on my cheek, but not my chin or moustache, so it must not be shave ready, right? How can I really know?

While I appreciate what you're saying, as a newbie, I'm having a hard time translating it into practical advice. One way is to try out my newbie honing, stropping, and shaving skills on my face from day 1. The only other take-away seems to be to get a razor that's supposed to be ready, try it, and second guess whether it's good enough. A wacky, but possible alternative is to pass the razor around to a few hone meisters for comparison. Doing this with two razors, I wouldn't be in a position to know whether it was the razor or the hone or me. With one razor, it'll take quite some time passing it around like that, using it in between.

Not annoyed, or even looking for answers, but this does seem to be a bit of a dilemma.

Si:

It is a dilemma. My purpose was not to create even more confusion -- there are so many variables to deal with when one is just starting out -- and I don't like introducing another uncertainty. But I know that if I had tried my first shaves with a couple of these razors, believing they were as sharp as they could get, and continued to fault and practice my technique without improving, I would eventually have become very disenchanted and called it quits. I don't want that to happen to anyone.

I'm fortunate that I had the means to try a bunch of razors early on, and that two of them were, indeed, as sharp as they could be. That gave me a standard to judge the others. This, I guess, is a variation on the wacky alternative you described.

Having said all that, if you have a razor that is not cutting through the "tougher" parts of your beard, as you described, then I suspect that it is not sufficiently sharp. Assuming the blade is contacting beard at a reasonable angle and the hair is not being reduced, what else could be the problem? It's like having an HVAC system that works fine until the weather turns hot.

As I said in the previous post, there are only two viable solutions in my opinion. You must either learn to keep the blade sharp yourself, or find someone who does the job to your satisfaction.
 
For the record, I think my razor's just fine. No point going into that in this thread.

I was sort of playing devil's advocate because it seemed a bit like an old boy's club giving advice that only an old boy could actually follow. Thought the thread needed a newbie to focus the discussion.

'nuff said, except I still can't really be sure
 
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I usually love dissenting opinions but, in this case, I absolutely do not agree.

I bought my first straight in 1980. There was no Internet and no one to help me. The clerk sold me a Dovo #41 inox and a strop and gave me 5 minutes of instructions. The razor wasn't shave ready and it, literally, ripped up my face. I went back two times to the store asking if, possibly, the razor wasn't sharp enough. The clerk insisted that the razors come sharp from the factory. On the second visit, a customer overheard my questions and intervened saying, "he needs a hone". The clerk reluctantly sold me a Swaty barber hone and that solved my problem.

This is the situation that we are trying to avoid by recommending that a newbie have their first razor professionally honed. Whether or not that honing is the ultimate, in your opinion, is irrelevant. The important thing is that it shouldn't be sh*t.

Of course, a straight shaver should own, and know how to use, a hone. But barber hones are not that easy to find anymore and it isn't reasonable to expect that someone will make an investment in hones before they know whether they like straight shaving or not. Let a new guy get a few shaves with a, relatively, decent razor before deciding to spend more money.

You know very well that you can get a good shave with razors that are more or less, but not perfectly, sharp. If a razor is a little dull, you can adapt your style to it. By casting doubt on the quality of the honemeisters in general you have just added another layer of confusion to an already very confusing situation.

In short, I don't think your post was helpful.

Chimensch:

I'm not sure that we are in much disagreement. I too would recommend that a newcomer get his razor professionally honed. I'm just advising him (or her) not to put absolute faith in the end result. If you had accepted the clerk's assurances back in 1980 that the blade was indeed sharp, would you have continued ripping your face up trying to master straight shaving? I'm recommending a healthy skepticism here. Not everyone is lucky enough to encounter a bystander with a solution.

And yes, I know that one can get a decent shave from a less than perfectly sharp blade. Early on, every blade I had fell far short of even the loosest definition of perfection. But one of the professionally-honed blades I described simply did not cut hair. Not arm hair, not facial hair, not WTG, not ATG, nothing.

And in response to some other posts: I don't believe for a moment that any honer can be expected to satisfy any individual's exact preference in terms of comfort v. aggressiveness, or any of the other final variables that make someone prefer one well-honed razor, and someone else another one. But I do think they should provide the basic requirements of what a razor ought to do: cut hair, even coarse hair, with reasonable efficiency and comfort.
 
For the record, I think my razor's just fine. No point going into that in this thread.

I was sort of playing devil's advocate because it seemed a bit like an old boy's club giving advice that only an old boy could actually follow. Thought the thread needed a newbie to focus the discussion.

'nuff said, except I still can't really be sure

There was a reason I didn't put this on the newbie section. Gregs656 response that he would henceforth tell newcomers that having the razor professionally honed should take the sharpness variable out of the question was precisely the result I was hoping for.
 
<Thought the thread needed a newbie to focus the discussion.>

Don't be quick to back off, Si!

That is exactly what this thread needs the most. I do not think that anyone posting in this thread has in mind anything other than making sure the new straight user is able to get what he needs with a minimal amount of confusion and anxiety.

From what I can tell, pbc01 is onto something. That is that there is more dissatisfaction with honemeisters that it would ever appear from these fora, where I very little said that would question whether all of them do other than a consistently great job.

And, I admit that I have been quick to assume that a professional hone is an excellent hone in every case, and will eliminate the confusion and anxiety of not knowing whether it is a bad edge or bad technique that is giving a new shaver problems.

I think I was wrong, and that it is important to emphasize to the new shaver that even a professional hone could be bad and could be the cause of the problems. And pbc01 has really laid out an easy to describe way to figure out whether "its me, or its my honemeister" that is the problem.

I does a little bit come across as a smear of all honemeisters, but there are no better options. It would not be fair to name certain honemeisters. There is way too little evidence of any of specific of them being consistently bad, and the point is to make the new shaver aware that he may not have himself to blame.

I admire pbc01's courage in coming forward on this. I think that anyone that has had problems in the past has not mentioned them publicly in part to avoid harming anyone's reputation. But unless the matter is raised somehow all of us lose the advantage of the knowledge.
 
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