A Dissenting Opinion (Long)

[SiBurning]

<Thought the thread needed a newbie to focus the discussion.>

Don't be quick to back off, Si!

That is exactly what this thread needs the most.

Not backing off. Just didn't want to sidetrack the thread getting into my specifics. This is pretty interesting. Also, this is really about advising people, which I'm in no position to do.

Maybe that's the wrong approach. Let's try it another way.

I do think there's enough warning on the site about this, even if it's not where it jumps out at you. I was hesitant to use the blade at first. Before using it, I checked it under a low power microscope, and the edge was wavy. Stropped it, and it felt like one side wasn't doing anything and it also sounded like that. Thought it might be my pressure, but no... After another 20 strokes it made the same sound from both sides. Back under the scope, there was only one tiny spot reflecting light. Figured that was as close as I should try the first time.

I haven't heard anyone talk about listening to the sound of stropping, but it seems like it works. Does this prove the razor's in ready condition? (For some definition of ready) If the razor wasn't ready, could the strop straighten the edge like that? Maybe there could be other issues. Does this work with all razors, or does it only work with "singing" or very thin blades? Does a dull razor sound the same as a ready one?

Honestly, though, I think without a microscope this begs the question: just what does a ready razor sound like on a strop? And does 2 oz leather sound different than 7oz?

Okay, maybe this isn't the best approach.

 

[pcb01]

Si: I'm not the best source for an answer on this, but I'll post what I think and leave others to elaborate or disagree.

As I understand it, your question is not about stropping correctly, but knowing when the blade might be sharp. These are different questions.

Feedback on correct stropping may be visual, auditory, or tactile (watching the blade, listening to the blade, and the "feeling" or draw of the blade). Obviously, you want both edge and spine on the strop, you want to hear a more uniform sound through the stroke (there are other posts on this, some of them with sound samples and even visual (think oscilloscope) samples). "Feel" or draw is hard to describe, for me anyway, and takes experience to get a "feel" for the "feel!"

There are some who say they can also determine when the blade is optimally sharp by listening and/or "feeling." I cannot at this point do that, but I do not doubt that it may be possible. Hopefully, someone else with this ability will comment further.

Hope this helps.

 

[gugi]

when a razor cannot shave armhair i consider it dull.

a wavy edge is at minimum going to be harsh, but likely would also be dull.
of course how bad it is depends on the amplitude and period of the waves.

some very thin edges can visually get bent out of shape during shaving, especially with poor technique and/or preparation and look wavy under the microscope. that can be realigned with stropping and the edge is straight again.

how a razor sounds on the strop depends mostly on the grind of the razor and then on the strop. some don't make much noise at all. same with shaving.

 

[Thebigspendur]

Maybe, maybe, maybe. First off you can look at an edge under 100x or 1000x and that has nothing to do with how a razor shaves. It will tell you if there are gross imperfections but the fact it may look perfect doesn't mean squat and with enough mag a perfectly honed razor can look like the surface of the moon.

In general most people I have seen on these sites have been pretty happy with honemeister jobs. Of course if I were to have a razor professionally honed (which I would never do because I can do it myself) there are only a very few I would use.

You can shave your arms, legs or any other part of your anatomy but your face is all that really matters.

Also, it nice to tell a novice he needs to do it himself however how does he learn by himself without some benchmark. Many people shave for years with a razor they think is sharp complaining about crummy shaves only to eventually find out the razor was never sharp to begin with.

Don't discount technique. If its bad you will never get a good shave no matter how sharp your razor is.

Which brings us back to honemeisters. Like I said over the years I've been here and at SRP I've only deen a few people complain like you are doing. In the end if your unhappy send it back to be redone. I don't know a single honemeister who would not redo it and in fact would insist you send it back because their work speaks volumns and they are proud of it if they are a honemeister.

 

[pcb01]

I think most who have followed this thread already understand this, but I don't want my failure to communicate result in undue anxiety, so...

I can see now how reading the OP left some feeling, what was the point of it all? So let me be clear: I do believe that the best advice for a newcomer is to get his razor sharpened by a professional. It was not my intent to suggest otherwise. I believe that, most of the time, a serviceable blade will be the result.

So, let me try it this way:

Newcomer: Get your blade professionally honed. There is an excellent chance you will get a sharp blade. If you attempt to do the honing yourself, that chance is reduced virtually to zero.

Be aware that an otherwise good honing may not result in the "perfect" blade for you. But it should be sharp enough to shave with.

Be aware that, on occasion, the above may not be true. Some of us have experienced this. How often a blade gets out of the honemeister's hands with an inadequate edge is unknown. It may be rare, but it does happen. So if you find that, despire your best efforts, it does not cut or it pulls excessively, stop and seek counsel. It may not be you.

Eventually it will become very obvious to you which blades are acceptably sharp enough, and how you prefer to have them finished. Learn to do it yourself, or find someone who understands what you like and can replicate it in steel.

A previous past said it best, and in MANY fewer words than it has taken me:

Tell the newcomer that a professionally honed blade should (not will) take the sharpness variable out of the equation. That is what I was trying to say.

I apologize that my failure to be clear resulted in anyone becoming more confused and anxious than necessary.

Now I can sleep tonight.

 

[SiBurning]

some very thin edges can visually get bent out of shape during shaving, especially with poor technique and/or preparation and look wavy under the microscope. that can be realigned with stropping and the edge is straight again.

True of people, too. Maybe all of us needs a good stropping once in a while.

 

[strr]

Newcomer: Get your blade professionally honed. There is an excellent chance you will get a sharp blade. If you attempt to do the honing yourself, that chance is reduced virtually to zero.

Be aware that an otherwise good honing may not result in the "perfect" blade for you. But it should be sharp enough to shave with.

Be aware that, on occasion, the above may not be true. Some of us have experienced this. How often a blade gets out of the honemeister's hands with an inadequate edge is unknown. It may be rare, but it does happen. So if you find that, despire your best efforts, it does not cut or it pulls excessively, stop and seek counsel. It may not be you.

Why not just get it honed by a professional at first and when they get back have em strop it on a pasted linen strop. This should finish it out if its still not quite there.

 

[pcb01]

Why not just get it honed by a professional at first and when they get back have em strop it on a pasted linen strop. This should finish it out if its still not quite there.

Newcomers often damage the edge of a freshly-honed blade with poor stropping technique. This is why they are often advised not to strop one prior to their first (or even subsequent) shaves.

 

[gugi]

I actually think the damaging of the edge while stropping is another overexposed thing. It's really not all that hard to not damage the edge, at least not irreversibly.
Keeping the spine on the strop is the key to it. Even a moderate amount of pressure and a little bit of sagging is tolerable. Of course it's not hard to roll the edge as well, but that would require lifting the spine from the strop, or having some sag with pressure on the razor. Following the instructions should avoid these things.

Most people that I know would strop a razor and coat it in oil, before sending it to a newbie. The edge may deteriorate a little bit during transit, but that's not on the scale that it would make a big difference.
Not having to strop for the first shave does remove another potential problem, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

I think my first razor was not stropped when I received it and I was rather timid with the first stropping, having read how delicate the edge is etc.
After the second shave I did strop it a whole lot better and could see the results right away.

But it is best that newbies don't attempt stropping on pasted strops at least for few weeks. It's a lot easier to damage the razor that way.

There are a whole lot more newbie-friendly options - mparker was able to make a razor shave ready by just stropping on plain fabric. Newspaper is a whole lot less aggressive than chromium oxide and it's another alternative.
Or even legal pad would work since the paper is relatively abrasive as well.

If a newbie ends up with a dull razor it's fairly quickly to diagnose and there is always plenty of help. I've honed razors on few occasions when that happens and most guys who can hone have done it as well. Usually these razors that don't come from honemeisters, but rather people who are relatively new to honing. And yes honemeisters can miss a blade too, it's happened before and will happen in the future, but it's not all that common, I'd say it's less than few percent occurance.

 

[leighton]

I think the problem lies not in the professional honing, but rather in the newbie's lack of knowing what shave ready means.

IMHO shave ready means that it will slice arm hairs off without any effort and WTG will have zero tugging, or at the very least only slightly noticeable tugging, but personally I would go back to the 8k and then refinish if I got tugging.

But yes, the SR user is ultimately responsible, however, you need to know what your doing before you get good at it.

 

[lax1mxr]

Yup, there is a lot to learn with this. 80% technique and 20% razor. My first two straights were honed by the man himself "Lynn". I thought initially they both shaved like crap. It took me a couple of weeks to get some basic technique before I even realized i did not know what the hell I was doing. Good news is though, that once my technique improved, the razors got magically sharper.

Shave Ready is different things to different people. I do not offer "honing" services myself, but I do sell a lot of blades that are "Shave Ready". I only call them that because I have shaved with them. I believe that If I can get a good shave with the blade then it can be considered shave ready. Especially with my brillo pad face. BTW I use my beard for rough sanding on the weekends.

 

[SiBurning]

Time to resurrect this old thread...

Six months later, I'm getting consistent DFS with any of my razors. Back then, none of my razors passed the HHT, but I just tried again and all 7 of my straights pass easily. Not that I ever questioned whether they were shave ready--they all worked on my face to one degree or another. Somehow, I just didn't have the feel for angles and pressure to pass the HHT. Took a while to get it right on my face, too.

Seems like there's just a variety of things to work through. The honing issue is just one, and doesn't seem like the most likely cause of problems.

 

[richmondesi]

Time to resurrect this old thread...

Six months later, I'm getting consistent DFS with any of my razors. Back then, none of my razors passed the HHT, but I just tried again and all 7 of my straights pass easily. Not that I ever questioned whether they were shave ready--they all worked on my face to one degree or another. Somehow, I just didn't have the feel for angles and pressure to pass the HHT. Took a while to get it right on my face, too.

Seems like there's just a variety of things to work through. The honing issue is just one, and doesn't seem like the most likely cause of problems.

Interesting update...

 

[Bertilak]

Six months later, I'm getting consistent DFS with any of my razors.

As a still somewhat newbie I can relate a similar experience.

• Bought razor A and had trouble shaving with it. I was pretty sure (intellectually) it wasn't the blade's fault, but, just to be sure ..
• Bought razor B. Sure enough I had trouble with that one, too.
• Continued my learning experience with B but continued to have bad shaves.
• Decided to give A another try and WOW! I got a great shave!

My conclusions were: I was actually learning to shave but my stropping technique was bad enough to have messed up razor B. Razor A, which I had neglected for a month or two, remained in good shape and when I combined that with my improved technique things went much better.

Bottom line, it was my inexperience all along that was the problem.