A couple of q.s about a Cotcicule

[cotedupy]

I recently got a small older one, fixed into a barber's paddle, and which I got out this evening after some lengthy and delicate effort. Happily it was coticule all the way down, and with a nice bit of depth to it . And I had a coupla q.s just out of interest, if anyone can shed any light. (Pics at the end to illustrate.)

It appeared to have been fixed into the wood using glue mixed with something that looked and felt a lot like coticule mud/dust. Is that a thing they do/did?

One end has a hole drilled all the way through, which must have been used to hang or fix it somewhere at some point I assume? Anyone know anything about that?

 

[LJS]

I’ve seen a lot of putty like plumbers putty used under stones to bed them.

I’m not the best at identifying, but some things about that stone make me think PDSO and some things make me think coticule.

 

[cotedupy]

I’ve seen a lot of putty like plumbers putty used under stones to bed them.

I’m not the best at identifying, but some things about that stone make me think PDSO and some things make me think coticule.

Ah, could have been then - it was putty-ish in terms of texture, just very slightly gritty and a pretty similar colour so I wondered if they'd mixed in some mud or something.

And to show how little I know about these kinds of stones generally... I'd not even heard of PDSO until googling just now, and it does look quite a lot like the pictures that come up. Also just read somewhere that they often come up as old UK barber's hones, which this is. Any particular 'tells' I should look for if trying to distinguish between the two? Or does it need an expert to look at one in person...?

Off to read more about them now either way, TY!

 

[LJS]

Well, wish I was better at describing than I am, but I will try. I will also say PDSO seems to be one of the more difficult ones for me to ID personally.

First, like the name implies, Pierre du Sud Oest are mostly found in France despite the fact that no one seems to know where they were ever mined.

Second, they are always very old. As such they are not a uniform shape or cut and often resemble that sort of coffin shape that many hand hewn hones of old were including coticules, charn woods, etc of 150-200 years ago. Yours is not rectangular, however the sides are cut at 90s from the faces and also decent thickness which is not exactly PDSU look. Also being old and often smaller, they are mostly in old paddles which yours is. So a little of maybe maybe-not on yours to me.

The colors of PDSO range a good bit in yellows tans greens but often a mottle like yours and even a camo pattern look at times.

The sides on most I’ve seen appear glazed and oxidized unlike the faces of PDSO and sometimes I see that on old coticules but not as much as PDSO. Often the faces are convex instead of flat or even dished from use.

But there is no quintessential distinguishing identifiers I personally can relay to you. More of a body of evidence as a whole. If yours had more tapered/irregular, glazed sides and if that paddle looked older and more hand whittled I would be calling PDSO for sure. Yours is a little square on the sides and the paddle looks a little more contemporary for me to be sure but the pattern, non-square faces, and being in a paddle are what gave me pause.

I have read that many old PDSO stones are often bought NIS-identified as old coticules.

 

[cotedupy]

Well, wish I was better at describing than I am, but I will try. I will also say PDSO seems to be one of the more difficult ones for me to ID personally.

First, like the name implies, Pierre du Sud Oest are mostly found in France despite the fact that no one seems to know where they were ever mined.

Second, they are always very old. As such they are not a uniform shape or cut and often resemble that sort of coffin shape that many hand hewn hones of old were including coticules, charn woods, etc of 150-200 years ago. Yours is not rectangular, however the sides are cut at 90s from the faces and also decent thickness which is not exactly PDSU look. Also being old and often smaller, they are mostly in old paddles which yours is. So a little of maybe maybe-not on yours to me.

The colors of PDSO range a good bit in yellows tans greens but often a mottle like yours and even a camo pattern look at times.

The sides on most I’ve seen appear glazed and oxidized unlike the faces of PDSO and sometimes I see that on old coticules but not as much as PDSO. Often the faces are convex instead of flat or even dished from use.

But there is no quintessential distinguishing identifiers I personally can relay to you. More of a body of evidence as a whole. If yours had more tapered/irregular, glazed sides and if that paddle looked older and more hand whittled I would be calling PDSO for sure. Yours is a little square on the sides and the paddle looks a little more contemporary for me to be sure but the pattern, non-square faces, and being in a paddle are what gave me pause.

I have read that many old PDSO stones are often bought NIS-identified as old coticules.

Cheers for this, very interesting! I hope it is one, I rather like the romanticism of having something slightly niche that nobody knows exactly where it’s from .

I’ve actually got very lucky in the last week and have found at least four definite coticules for almost no money, which are on their way to me. So should be able to do a reasonable comparison soon. And can look at them under a little usb microscope thing someone’s lent me, which is proving to be quite good for analysing mystery stones alongside known examples.

 

[Gamma]

A lot of old European hones set into wood were fixed in place with a mixture of whiting and linseed oil. That combo must have been some sort of woodworkers fave recipe because I have had sooo many Charns and Llyns fitting into caskets and paddles with it. Looks like the stone above received the same treatment.

 

[Legion]

A lot of old European hones set into wood were fixed in place with a mixture of whiting and linseed oil. That combo must have been some sort of woodworkers fave recipe because I have had sooo many Charns and Llyns fitting into caskets and paddles with it. Looks like the stone above received the same treatment.

What’s whiting? I only know the fish, and I assume it’s not that.

 

[cotedupy]

A lot of old European hones set into wood were fixed in place with a mixture of whiting and linseed oil. That combo must have been some sort of woodworkers fave recipe because I have had sooo many Charns and Llyns fitting into caskets and paddles with it. Looks like the stone above received the same treatment.

That sounds like it might be what's happened, thanks for the info. There was definitely some glue involved on the underneath, but it seemed this kinda pasty stuff had been used almost as filler to make sure there were no little gaps or anything between stone and paddle.

 

[Gamma]

@Legion I believe whiting was calcium carbonate or a mix of that and some other powder and BLO. It was used to make a putty type of adhesive. Glaziers used it to fit glass into frames,etc. Kind of like the ancient equivalent of Sugru.

 

[cotedupy]

@Legion I believe whiting was calcium carbonate or a mix of that and some other powder and BLO. It was used to make a putty type of adhesive. Glaziers used it to fit glass into frames,etc. Kind of like the ancient equivalent of Sugru.

Yep... it's effectively the same as lime/liming, and basically ground up chalk.