6.5 Grendel vs. .224 Valkyrie for long range precision AR build.

[nortac]

True but that pure flat shooting equates to a 2" difference at 500 yards (90gr vs. 130gr). Just comes down to whether you want schlep around an AR-15 or an AR-10 I suppose

There are "schlep around guns" and then there are those that are more for precision shooting, you schlep from the truck to the range bench/ prone position. If I'm schlepping, which I don't plan to do too much, it will not be a long range gun, but a hunting rig, AR 15 or 10, meant for shooting under 500 yds.

 

[nikonNUT]

There are "schlep around guns" and then there are those that are more for precision shooting, you schlep from the truck to the range bench/ prone position. If I'm schlepping, which I don't plan to do too much, it will not be a long range gun, but a hunting rig, AR 15 or 10, meant for shooting under 500 yds.

True. Schlepping from car to bench? I have the be all to end all (in my mind). Trajectories are very similar to the valk out to 500 yard (2" difference again!) but energy is wildly different (3203 ft/lbs verus 545 ft/lbs). Do I want to hike it anywhere? Heck NO! As for a lightweight hunting rig. Depends... Shooting hogs in a field? MSR-10 in 6.5CM riding in a hog saddle on a tripod. Not super light but perfect for busting a sounder when the targets are thick and quick shots necessary. True schleping? Christensen bolt gun in 6.5CM. The new titanium actioned one with the carbon wrapped barrel at 5.3 pounds. Add a Black Collar Arms forged carbon scope mount and the right scope and you are under 7 pounds with solid knock down power (1000 ft.lbs) at 600 yards.

 

[dreadpirate]

And one more thing; the 6.5 Grendel ammo is cheap. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel. I got an 18" but I wish I had got a 20". To me that's perfect for an AR. I got an Odin Works barrel and it performs well.

 

[OkieStubble]

And one more thing; the 6.5 Grendel ammo is cheap. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel. I got an 18" but I wish I had got a 20". To me that's perfect for an AR. I got an Odin Works barrel and it performs well. View attachment 1160164

Nice. What is the twist on the barrel?

 

[dreadpirate]

Nice. What is the twist on the barrel?

It's um - what the heck is it? I'll have to get back to you

[EDIT]

Ok - it's 1 in 8 inches.

6.5 Grendel Barrel 18'' Intermediate with BCG | Shop Now

6.5 Grendel Barrel 18' Intermediate, includes type 2 BCG and gas tube, 1:8 Twist, made from 416R stainless steel, hand lapped.

www.odinworks.com

 

[dreadpirate]

But I do concur, a 20" heavy on an AR, still looks much more aesthetic and pleasing than a contoured 26" would.

And I want to emphasize; get a 20" barrel - not an 18" or 16"! The difference in weight and handling is negligible. There are a lot of guys that buy 16" barrels for their 6.5 Grendel. To me that's a waste of a great caliber. I love short barreled rifles but the Grendel seems to perform so much better in a longer barrel.

[EDIT] As a matter of fact, I may build an extra 20" upper for the Grendel gun.

 

[OkieStubble]

And I want to emphasize; get a 20" barrel - not an 18" or 16"! The difference in weight and handling is negligible. There are a lot of guys that buy 16" barrels for their 6.5 Grendel. To me that's a waste of a great caliber. I love short barreled rifles but the Grendel seems to perform so much better in a longer barrel.

[EDIT] As a matter of fact, I may build an extra 20" upper for the Grendel gun.

I absolutely agree, a 20” is the least one should have in barrel length to get the most from the ballistics of the Grendel.

I helped my older brother build his first AR not too long back. While it has an Anderson lower, It has a BCM enhanced lower parts kit.

We also got a Odin 1:8. Great barrel for the money.

 

[dreadpirate]

I absolutely agree, a 20” is the least one should have in barrel length to get the most from the ballistics of the Grendel.

I helped my older brother build his first AR not too long back. While it has an Anderson lower, It has a BCM enhanced lower parts kit.

We also got a Odin 1:8. Great barrel for the money.

Wow - sounds nice! He's going to love that.

 

[jkingrph]

I have one Grendel set up on an 18" barrel, but then it is not a precision long range rifle. I have a nice Aimpoint red dot instead of a scope and a set of HK style Troy battle sights as backup irons. My other 6.5 Grendels sport 24" barrels and big Leupold AR scopes, all on a heavy Magpul fully adjustable target stock. Heavy, not a walk around rifle.

It makes my M1 Garand look like a featherweight.

 

[Hohn]

The thing about about 6.5 mm cartridges, whether Swede, Grendel or Creedmore, is that the heavier 6.5 bullets sectional density allow them to punch way out of their weight class, so to speak, even with moderate velocities. While the various .22 and 6 mm cartridges may shoot a bit flatter, I don't think they would have the sectional density to penetrate like a 6.5 projectile has.

Hi Nortac-

Sectional density is a big part of the surprising effectiveness of the heavy 6.5mm loads even at modest speeds and power. But that presumes a cup and core soft bullet. Bullet design matters more than sectional density when it comes to penetration. A copper monolithic even of low SD will penetrate very well.

Now, to your broader question of .224V and 6.5G for long range:

1) The 6.5G is cousin to the 6PPC, the reining king of short range benchrest and the most inherently accurate cartridge yet devised (if you believe cartridges can be inherently accurate). If you neck up the PPC you basically get the Grendel. It is DEFINITELY an accurate cartridge.

2) Do you reload? 6.5G offers Lapua brass. Valk, not so much on the premium brass.

3) The 224V is murder on brass. Don't expect to reload a case more than once or twice.

4) A long-high BC bullet like the 90gr SMKs the Valk are built around are inherently less accurate and harder to shoot accurately. They require very fast twists to stabilize and have an unfortunate tendency to blow up because of the fast twists. There's a reason all the bench rest shooter at short range use low BC bullets that are lighter and have slower twist. Commonly, a 6ppc will shoot 80gr 6mm bullets with a 12 twist. Talk to a 223 match shooter about how finicky the 90gr 223 bullets are. I myself shoot 88gr Hornadys and while they have excellent BC, they are much trickier to get accurate loads. Using a heavy 223 bullet means gambling that the BC and windage gains are worth it. I've fired a couple hundred 88s so far and haven't yet found a load as accurate as my best 80 ELD and 75 ELD loads.
Heck, my mag length 73 ELD load has scored better than any 88 load I've fired in competition.

5) Barrel life of the 6.5 is even better than .308 (well over 5000). 224V will give you about 2000.

6) The 6.5 performs very well even in short barrels. A 12.5" Grendel has more muzzle energy than a AK round from a standard AK barrel does. Overbore cartridges like the 224V need longer barrels.

7) Inexpensive range finders that work well are making "flat shooting" a pretty moot consideration for extended range. That's why modern sniper reticles aren't laid out for ranging, but rather they are focusing on wind compensation and target movement (driving car, walking soldier, etc). If you don't use a range finder and use a simple hunting duplex reticle, the flat shooting can be very helpful if, like most of us, you aren't highly skilled in estimating holds.

8) The 6.5 creedmoor is a very different animal than the 6.5G. It's a substantial step up in capability, but also in cost as a semi auto 6.5cm will cost a lot more than a 6.5G will because it requires the AR10 platform, a wild west of mystifying part compatibility relative to the no brainer of its smaller sibling. A bolt 6.5CM is always a great choice. They feed well from box mags in modern tactical bolt rifles design for longer range (RPR, Savage Stealth, Tikka A1, etc).

9) 6.5G offers steel case Wolf for plinking. Granted, its pretty horrible on accuracy (3 moa is often reported) but who cares? Don't buy Russian steel case expecting match accuracy.

For me, it's 6.5G for a semi auto all day and 6.5C for a bolt gun. I know there are bolt 6.5Gs and gas 6.5Cs, but they are far less common. I'm actually gather parts to build a 6.5G with 14.5" pin and weld for legal min 16". Super compact and remarkable capability.

Finally, a 6.5G in a bolt gun can do some remarkable things. Did you ever see this one? 6.5 Grendel Cartridge Guide - https://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

 

[jkingrph]

Hi Nortac-

Sectional density is a big part of the surprising effectiveness of the heavy 6.5mm loads even at modest speeds and power. But that presumes a cup and core soft bullet. Bullet design matters more than sectional density when it comes to penetration. A copper monolithic even of low SD will penetrate very well.

Now, to your broader question of .224V and 6.5G for long range:

1) The 6.5G is cousin to the 6PPC, the reining king of short range benchrest and the most inherently accurate cartridge yet devised (if you believe cartridges can be inherently accurate). If you neck up the PPC you basically get the Grendel. It is DEFINITELY an accurate cartridge.

2) Do you reload? 6.5G offers Lapua brass. Valk, not so much on the premium brass.

3) The 224V is murder on brass. Don't expect to reload a case more than once or twice.

4) A long-high BC bullet like the 90gr SMKs the Valk are built around are inherently less accurate and harder to shoot accurately. They require very fast twists to stabilize and have an unfortunate tendency to blow up because of the fast twists. There's a reason all the bench rest shooter at short range use low BC bullets that are lighter and have slower twist. Commonly, a 6ppc will shoot 80gr 6mm bullets with a 12 twist. Talk to a 223 match shooter about how finicky the 90gr 223 bullets are. I myself shoot 88gr Hornadys and while they have excellent BC, they are much trickier to get accurate loads. Using a heavy 223 bullet means gambling that the BC and windage gains are worth it. I've fired a couple hundred 88s so far and haven't yet found a load as accurate as my best 80 ELD and 75 ELD loads.
Heck, my mag length 73 ELD load has scored better than any 88 load I've fired in competition.

5) Barrel life of the 6.5 is even better than .308 (well over 5000). 224V will give you about 2000.

6) The 6.5 performs very well even in short barrels. A 12.5" Grendel has more muzzle energy than a AK round from a standard AK barrel does. Overbore cartridges like the 224V need longer barrels.

7) Inexpensive range finders that work well are making "flat shooting" a pretty moot consideration for extended range. That's why modern sniper reticles aren't laid out for ranging, but rather they are focusing on wind compensation and target movement (driving car, walking soldier, etc). If you don't use a range finder and use a simple hunting duplex reticle, the flat shooting can be very helpful if, like most of us, you aren't highly skilled in estimating holds.

8) The 6.5 creedmoor is a very different animal than the 6.5G. It's a substantial step up in capability, but also in cost as a semi auto 6.5cm will cost a lot more than a 6.5G will because it requires the AR10 platform, a wild west of mystifying part compatibility relative to the no brainer of its smaller sibling. A bolt 6.5CM is always a great choice. They feed well from box mags in modern tactical bolt rifles design for longer range (RPR, Savage Stealth, Tikka A1, etc).

9) 6.5G offers steel case Wolf for plinking. Granted, its pretty horrible on accuracy (3 moa is often reported) but who cares? Don't buy Russian steel case expecting match accuracy.

For me, it's 6.5G for a semi auto all day and 6.5C for a bolt gun. I know there are bolt 6.5Gs and gas 6.5Cs, but they are far less common. I'm actually gather parts to build a 6.5G with 14.5" pin and weld for legal min 16". Super compact and remarkable capability.

Finally, a 6.5G in a bolt gun can do some remarkable things. Did you ever see this one? 6.5 Grendel Cartridge Guide - https://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

I think this pretty well says it all. I currently have three 6.5 Grendel AR types, and one little CZ527 American. The other 6.5's I have are all Swedish Military Mausers in 6.5x55. I would honestly like to have a modern sporter or heavier semi target gun in 6.5 Swede. Having several of those and a good supply of quality brass I will pass on the 6.5 Creedmoor. I would like to see a comparison of the Swede and Creedmore out of the same make rifles, barrels, weight ect to see accuracy. The one Swedish M96 Mauser that I have scoped, with a 2.5x Leupold scout scope, not the best for accuracy gets 1.25-1.75 MOA groups, and might be better, but then my eyes are not the best either.

My big Grendel AR target rifles are more accurate than the little CZ sporter, but that is probably because of weight, bigger better scopes for target shooting, and a fully adjustable stock vs the sporter stock.

 

[OkieStubble]

Hi Nortac-

Sectional density is a big part of the surprising effectiveness of the heavy 6.5mm loads even at modest speeds and power. But that presumes a cup and core soft bullet. Bullet design matters more than sectional density when it comes to penetration. A copper monolithic even of low SD will penetrate very well.

Now, to your broader question of .224V and 6.5G for long range:

1) The 6.5G is cousin to the 6PPC, the reining king of short range benchrest and the most inherently accurate cartridge yet devised (if you believe cartridges can be inherently accurate). If you neck up the PPC you basically get the Grendel. It is DEFINITELY an accurate cartridge.

2) Do you reload? 6.5G offers Lapua brass. Valk, not so much on the premium brass.

3) The 224V is murder on brass. Don't expect to reload a case more than once or twice.

4) A long-high BC bullet like the 90gr SMKs the Valk are built around are inherently less accurate and harder to shoot accurately. They require very fast twists to stabilize and have an unfortunate tendency to blow up because of the fast twists. There's a reason all the bench rest shooter at short range use low BC bullets that are lighter and have slower twist. Commonly, a 6ppc will shoot 80gr 6mm bullets with a 12 twist. Talk to a 223 match shooter about how finicky the 90gr 223 bullets are. I myself shoot 88gr Hornadys and while they have excellent BC, they are much trickier to get accurate loads. Using a heavy 223 bullet means gambling that the BC and windage gains are worth it. I've fired a couple hundred 88s so far and haven't yet found a load as accurate as my best 80 ELD and 75 ELD loads.
Heck, my mag length 73 ELD load has scored better than any 88 load I've fired in competition.

5) Barrel life of the 6.5 is even better than .308 (well over 5000). 224V will give you about 2000.

6) The 6.5 performs very well even in short barrels. A 12.5" Grendel has more muzzle energy than a AK round from a standard AK barrel does. Overbore cartridges like the 224V need longer barrels.

7) Inexpensive range finders that work well are making "flat shooting" a pretty moot consideration for extended range. That's why modern sniper reticles aren't laid out for ranging, but rather they are focusing on wind compensation and target movement (driving car, walking soldier, etc). If you don't use a range finder and use a simple hunting duplex reticle, the flat shooting can be very helpful if, like most of us, you aren't highly skilled in estimating holds.

8) The 6.5 creedmoor is a very different animal than the 6.5G. It's a substantial step up in capability, but also in cost as a semi auto 6.5cm will cost a lot more than a 6.5G will because it requires the AR10 platform, a wild west of mystifying part compatibility relative to the no brainer of its smaller sibling. A bolt 6.5CM is always a great choice. They feed well from box mags in modern tactical bolt rifles design for longer range (RPR, Savage Stealth, Tikka A1, etc).

9) 6.5G offers steel case Wolf for plinking. Granted, its pretty horrible on accuracy (3 moa is often reported) but who cares? Don't buy Russian steel case expecting match accuracy.

For me, it's 6.5G for a semi auto all day and 6.5C for a bolt gun. I know there are bolt 6.5Gs and gas 6.5Cs, but they are far less common. I'm actually gather parts to build a 6.5G with 14.5" pin and weld for legal min 16". Super compact and remarkable capability.

Finally, a 6.5G in a bolt gun can do some remarkable things. Did you ever see this one? 6.5 Grendel Cartridge Guide - https://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

Good post. Very informative. I think a Grendel can work from a shorter barrel, just not as well as a 6.8 can. And a 20 inch would wring out the most that the 6.5 Grendel has to offer.

 

[nortac]

@Hohn, yes I do reload. I am pretty much sold on the 6.5 Grendel. As soon as I pay off my current .223 build (Thank God for PayPal), I will be building a precision upper in 6.5G.

 

[dreadpirate]

Hey @Hohn thanks! You make me feel a whole lot better about my setup.

 

[dreadpirate]

And a 20 inch would wring out the most that the 6.5 Grendel has to offer.

I think you just said it best. Still, sounds like I should not despair too much about my 18" setup.

 

[nortac]

And one more thing; the 6.5 Grendel ammo is cheap. I have an AR in 6.5 Grendel. I got an 18" but I wish I had got a 20". To me that's perfect for an AR. I got an Odin Works barrel and it performs well.

Define "it performs well".

 

[Hachet]

I'm sorry to jump in this thread and throw it off-topic, but this is the only place I know to post this, so I will keep it super short:

I ended up with a 6.5 Grendel 10rd mag as a gift. It's green (I think my buddy got it during a St. Patrick's Day sale).

Anyway, I have no use for it and would like to PIF it. It's brand new but I removed it from the packaging to inspect it (I thought it was a 556 magazine).

Would anyone be interested in such a PIF? If so, I'll go ahead and create the thread. I believe this can even ship to California.

Like I said, sorry for the derail!

 

[nortac]

I'm sorry to jump in this thread and throw it off-topic, but this is the only place I know to post this, so I will keep it super short:

I ended up with a 6.5 Grendel 10rd mag as a gift. It's green (I think my buddy got it during a St. Patrick's Day sale).

Anyway, I have no use for it and would like to PIF it. It's brand new but I removed it from the packaging to inspect it (I thought it was a 556 magazine).

Would anyone be interested in such a PIF? If so, I'll go ahead and create the thread. I believe this can even ship to California.

Like I said, sorry for the derail!

No problem, thanks for the generous offer!

 

[jkingrph]

I'm sorry to jump in this thread and throw it off-topic, but this is the only place I know to post this, so I will keep it super short:

I ended up with a 6.5 Grendel 10rd mag as a gift. It's green (I think my buddy got it during a St. Patrick's Day sale).

Anyway, I have no use for it and would like to PIF it. It's brand new but I removed it from the packaging to inspect it (I thought it was a 556 magazine).

Would anyone be interested in such a PIF? If so, I'll go ahead and create the thread. I believe this can even ship to California.

Like I said, sorry for the derail!

Nice of you, but I have enough. Let it go to someone who needs one.

 

[OkieStubble]

Define "it performs well".

-1 @300