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21mm Shavemac on the way...

OK, so after getting the Rooney Alibaba, SBAD has struck!

In keeping with my new fetish for smaller brushes, I ordered up a 21mm Shavemac. Seems that everyone goes with Saville Rows or QEDs for the small brushes (well and Rooneys, but I already have one of them..), so I decided to see what a smaller Shavemac does for me.

Olivewood handle too!:biggrin:
 
Before I dropped a single dime on any of this wetshaving stuff, I had my mind set on a Shavemac, just couldn't justify the coinage. I picked up a C&E BBB, and now a QED 22mm silvertip. Don't know that I need a Shavemac anymore, but they still look like awesome brushes to me.
 
Before I dropped a single dime on any of this wetshaving stuff, I had my mind set on a Shavemac, just couldn't justify the coinage. I picked up a C&E BBB, and now a QED 22mm silvertip. Don't know that I need a Shavemac anymore, but they still look like awesome brushes to me.

Yeah, you do need it!

:w00t:
 
Recieved a beautiful brush yesterday.

Shavemac 21mm?(see more on this later...) olivewood handle handmade silvertip .

It's a beauty!

Photos tell the story.

Definitely soft. Bristles are springy, not floppy, but not even in the same ballpark as the Rooney Heritage Alibaba as far as backbone, density, and "presence" goes(not necesssarily a bad thing, viva la difference, and all that...). So, an excellent brush. Very luxurious bristles, nice, nice handle.

This brush definitely whips up the lather easily, where the Alibaba takes some effort and coaxing (and still ends up sucking all the lather into the bruch itself, like a black hole...).

Definitely different than the Alibaba, which is what I was looking for. A brush to suit a different mood & lathering style. ANd I dig the olivewood.

The problem?

Well, I wanted a 21mm Shavemac,as listed on their site:
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What I got was a 24mm knot, as shown in the last pic.:confused:

When I did a test lather last night (no shave...) it felt great on my face, but definitely much larger than the Alibaba (20mm knot). Eyeballing it, it looked a bit larger...I thought perhaps it was just the different head shape--bulb vs. fan. However, I brought it to work so I could get the calipers on there and see what the actual size was. Yup, definitely well over 21mm!

I had recently sold off my other two ~25mm brushes as the Alibaba made me a "small brush" convert. The Shavemac feels awesome on the face, but this 24mm knot was too large for what I was looking for.

I have an email in to Bernd now, to see what his thoughts are on the matter.
 
I'm not sure that's a 24mm knot... the hairs are curving outward from the 'knot' at the point you have your calipers stopped. I think you would have to press in a bit (possibly 2.85mm) more to get the accurate knot size, no?

The handle, loft, knot, *look* right for the 21mm Shavemac brushes I have seen. Plus, Bernd only offers a 23mm (not 24) on his stock brushes if I recall, but that's just from memory.

My experience with Shavemacs in general has been that they *feel* much too large for my face due to the increased loft, not the increased knot.

Regards.

J
 
I'm not sure that's a 24mm knot... the hairs are curving outward from the 'knot' at the point you have your calipers stopped. I think you would have to press in a bit (possibly 2.85mm) more to get the accurate knot size, no?

The handle, loft, knot, *look* right for the 21mm Shavemac brushes I have seen. Plus, Bernd only offers a 23mm (not 24) on his stock brushes if I recall, but that's just from memory.

My experience with Shavemacs in general has been that they *feel* much too large for my face due to the increased loft, not the increased knot.

Regards.

J

Thanks.

That pic was pretty much for illustration purposes only. I took the actual measurement as you describe-i.e.-tight up against the knot, with the calipers up against the handle base (I'm an engineer by trade...:001_smile). But it was hard to take a pic of it that showed both the calipers at the base of the knot, and the readout. See attached pic for one such shot...

I can understand a 23mm knot measuring out at 23.85mm, but for what is listed as, and diagrammed as 21mm.....? Should I have to buy a 18mm if I truly want a 21mm?

I have no other gripes about the brush, it is very, very nice.

I had expected it too feel a bit larger due to the increased loft over the Alibaba, and I was looking for a different sort of feel in that regard. But I did want it in a more manageable size, thus I was excited to see a 21mm listed on the Shavemac site (that diagram is from their site showing a 21mm knot).

When I put it to my face it was luxurious, excellent...but immediately felt like my previous two 25mm brushes in regards to taking up too much "face space", which sparked my inquiry into what was the actual knot size...

I'm awaiting Shavemac's response.:001_huh:
 
Got it, thanks for the clarification!

I'll say my main point again -- I personally do not think the knot size has much to do with what size the brush *feels* on your face. I think the loft size has more to do with it.

Take a 22mm Rooney with 48mm loft, mash it head to head with a 21mm Shavemac or C&E with 61mm loft, and you will see how much larger the 'splay' of the shavemac turns out to be, which is the 'size' it would be on your face.

I really hope this helps. Personally it has helped me to look at things this way, and I have learned that regardless of knot size (20mm, 22mm, 24mm, doesn't really matter) I need to keep the loft under 50mm or the brush feels too big to me. All those knots (20mm, 22mm, 24mm) feel very similar on the face *to me* if the loft is the same.

Best of luck.

J
 
Got it, thanks for the clarification!

I'll say my main point again -- I personally do not think the knot size has much to do with what size the brush *feels* on your face. I think the loft size has more to do with it.

Take a 22mm Rooney with 48mm loft, mash it head to head with a 21mm Shavemac or C&E with 61mm loft, and you will see how much larger the 'splay' of the shavemac turns out to be, which is the 'size' it would be on your face.

I really hope this helps. Personally it has helped me to look at things this way, and I have learned that regardless of knot size (20mm, 22mm, 24mm, doesn't really matter) I need to keep the loft under 50mm or the brush feels too big to me. All those knots (20mm, 22mm, 24mm) feel very similar on the face *to me* if the loft is the same.

Best of luck.

J

I take your point. And thanks for the feedback. I came across many of your posts when I was researching "going small"...

But what about taking a 22mm Rooney and mash it head to head with a 25mm Rooney?
Similarly a 21mm vs. 23(.85)mm Shavemac? We specify size to choose a particular preference within a brush range, don't we?

My issue is that I ordered a 21mm, and it came larger than that by at least one size. If it came as a 21mm (or even 22mm), and felt large on my face, then I would take it for what it is-apples and oranges Shavemacs and Rooneys.

The loft on this brush is actually 55mm FWIW.
 
...
My issue is that I ordered a 21mm, and it came larger than that by at least one size. If it came as a 21mm (or even 22mm), and felt large on my face, then I would take it for what it is-apples and oranges Shavemacs and Rooneys.

The loft on this brush is actually 55mm FWIW.
...

I'm not saying you do not have a valid complaint (I'm sure you do), just that I do not believe you will like a 21mm Shavemac any more than you do the 23 -- they did not feel very/any different *to me*, when I tried both. Now if you get Bernd to shift that loft down somewhere under 50mm...

...
But what about taking a 22mm Rooney and mash it head to head with a 25mm Rooney?
Similarly a 21mm vs. 23(.85)mm Shavemac? We specify size to choose a particular preference within a brush range, don't we?
...

If the lofts were the same, or almost the same? I think they would have a very similar feel on the face. Take the Heritage Stubby 1 and Stubby 2 -- they have nearly the same loft but a 2mm difference in the knot, and the handle is bigger on the Stubby 2. I suspect that they have a very similar *size* on the face, due to the similar lofts.

I do think we specify size to fit our preference, but I *personally* think that loft size has a lot more to do with how a brush feels on *my* face, than does knot size. Now, does knot size have something to do with it? I'm sure it does. If you compared a 22mm and 24mm with the exact same loft, one would probably feel just a bit larger than the other. But I think if you compared two brushes with a 22mm knot and 10mm difference in their lofts, you would notice a much bigger difference.

I take your point. And thanks for the feedback. I came across many of your posts when I was researching "going small"...
...

Thank you, it's much appreciated! I'll say again, I think this is all very subjective and we each have our own personal preferences. It took me a lot (and I mean a LOT) of experimentation to find out exactly what worked best for me. Heck, I'm still experimenting to some degree.

But I've seen the pattern again and again, I suspect in the future you will end up narrowing down your preference, mostly based on loft, density, and how soft/scritchy the tips are, perhaps secondly based on knot size/shape... then there is the handle... the list goes on and on.

Best of luck!

J
 
I'm not saying you do not have a valid complaint (I'm sure you do), just that I do not believe you will like a 21mm Shavemac any more than you do the 23 -- they did not feel very/any different *to me*, when I tried both. Now if you get Bernd to shift that loft down somewhere under 50mm...



If the lofts were the same, or almost the same? I think they would have a very similar feel on the face. Take the Heritage Stubby 1 and Stubby 2 -- they have nearly the same loft but a 2mm difference in the knot, and the handle is bigger on the Stubby 2. I suspect that they have a very similar *size* on the face, due to the similar lofts.

I do think we specify size to fit our preference, but I *personally* think that loft size has a lot more to do with how a brush feels on *my* face, than does knot size. Now, does knot size have something to do with it? I'm sure it does. If you compared a 22mm and 24mm with the exact same loft, one would probably feel just a bit larger than the other. But I think if you compared two brushes with a 22mm knot and 10mm difference in their lofts, you would notice a much bigger difference.



Thank you, it's much appreciated! I'll say again, I think this is all very subjective and we each have our own personal preferences. It took me a lot (and I mean a LOT) of experimentation to find out exactly what worked best for me. Heck, I'm still experimenting to some degree.

But I've seen the pattern again and again, I suspect in the future you will end up narrowing down your preference, mostly based on loft, density, and how soft/scritchy the tips are, perhaps secondly based on knot size/shape... then there is the handle... the list goes on and on.

Best of luck!

J


These are good points. Thank you for making them.

As I said, I await to see what Bernd has to say about it. But perhaps in the end 3mm isn't that big of a difference?:confused:

But then the wheels in my head start turning.....and I say "well, then why don't we all just use 30mm brushes? Or 18mm brushes?....." of whatever brand of choice?

Because in the end size does matter, doesn't it?

But does 3mm in size matter?.....

As I said in my original post, I was interested in a smaller brush, and since everyone here is buying SR3118's, QED select 20mm's, etc. and I already had a Rooney 20mm, I wanted to branch out and try another brand in a smaller size, and ended up with a "mid range" sized brush.
 
sera,

That is one hunka, hunka brush and the lather it makes looks better than the cones from my local Dairy Queen. You may have to stick with the Alibaba #2 if you prefer the more petite. I am amazed at how Rooney can pack that much hair into such a small knot. If I didn't have BAD bad, the Rooney Alibaba #2 would likely be my only brush; I like it that much. Then again, the Shavemacs are wonderful brushes too. I have a Simpson Chubby 3, too, although am wont to know why it is known as a chubby when portly only partly describes it: obese is much more apt. :001_rolle
 
My Alibaba is a size 1, not 2.

The thing is, that I liked it so much, it made me want to try something else.

I do really, also like the new Shavemac. It is definitely higher quality than my previous 25mm brushes, but I just wanted it to be a bit smaller...
 
My Alibaba is a size 1, not 2.

The thing is, that I liked it so much, it made me want to try something else.

I do really, also like the new Shavemac. It is definitely higher quality than my previous 25mm brushes, but I just wanted it to be a bit smaller...
Hi there,
I may be able to give you some insight, having gone through some correspondence with Bernd a while back. I wanted a smaller sized silvertip, and I'll quote his response regarding what his brushes were like. I'd been thinking about a 20-22mm one, and learned a few things.
Quote from Bernd " The 23mm knot blooms more than the 22mm knot. It seems there is a border right at this size. All brushes up to 22mm blooms in a moderate way. From 23mm and larger the blooming makes a real step".
Soooooo, whadda ya think? To me, it sounds like there IS a substantial difference between the larger and smaller sizes. My 22mm is very small, but that's exactly what I wanted. He also mentioned that the 22 is gonna be a bit denser than a 21 for whatever the reason. The brush I have has been perfect for easily controlling where the lather's applied, and it works great with both soaps and creams. Very luxurious also.
I hope that helps a bit,
Martin
 
Hi there,
I may be able to give you some insight, having gone through some correspondence with Bernd a while back. I wanted a smaller sized silvertip, and I'll quote his response regarding what his brushes were like. I'd been thinking about a 20-22mm one, and learned a few things.
Quote from Bernd " The 23mm knot blooms more than the 22mm knot. It seems there is a border right at this size. All brushes up to 22mm blooms in a moderate way. From 23mm and larger the blooming makes a real step".
Soooooo, whadda ya think? To me, it sounds like there IS a substantial difference between the larger and smaller sizes. My 22mm is very small, but that's exactly what I wanted. He also mentioned that the 22 is gonna be a bit denser than a 21 for whatever the reason. The brush I have has been perfect for easily controlling where the lather's applied, and it works great with both soaps and creams. Very luxurious also.
I hope that helps a bit,
Martin

Thanks for the input.

I had come across you talking about your 22mm while researching small brushes as well. That only adds to my confusion, as it seems as if Bernd is quite aware of minute differences between a 21mm, 22mm, & 23mm, so why would I get a 23+mm size when it was listed as 21mm?

Too bad it was the weekend when I emailed him, as I have not yet heard back from him.

So, this is what I come up with:

a 21mm brush has a knot area of 3.14*10.5^2=346mm^2
a 24mm brush has a knot area of 3.14*12^2=452mm^2

if we assume the "bloom angle" is constant for the particular brush lineup, that should mean that a 3mm difference in knot size from 21mm to 24mm gives you 30% larger knot area.

Anyhow, just mulling it over here, since I have nothing better to do.
 
...
Anyhow, just mulling it over here, since I have nothing better to do.

Go take a bath, read a book, stop thinking about it, and whatever you do -- get off the forums... you'll drive yourself nuts :001_smile

I'm sure Bernd will make this right. Best of luck.

J
 
I've got both a 22mm Rooney 3-1 and a 23mm Shavemac 22579.

What about brush shape?
I was so interested in the matter that a few weeks ago, I emailed Bernd and asked him about it:
"Hello Hunter,
We consider the bulb shape as more comfortable and more easy to use.
Because of the bulb shape the brush is smaller on the top end and you have more control while applying the foam.
The shorter hairs out side gives the brush more backbone and makes it more stable.
Best Regards. Bernd Blos"
I think he's right, and that the differing shape of the two types of brushes plays a large part. I believe that if you took two different brushes (one fan and one bulb), both 23mm knot sizes, the bulb shaped one would feel significantly smaller on your face.

In short, I don't believe you can directly compare the knot OR loft size on two brushes with different head shapes.

Having said that - if you look on both the ClassicShaving and Shavemac sites, the loft clearly increases with knot size:
Rooney Style 3 size 1 Super Silvertip - knot: 22mm loft: 55mm
Rooney Style 3 size 2 Super Silvertip - knot: 24mm loft: 60mm
Rooney Style 3 size 3 Super Silvertip - knot: 26mm loft: 65mm
Shavemac Silver Tip (22150) - knot: 21mm loft: 60mm
Shavemac Silver Tip L (44140) - knot: 25mm loft: 62mm
Shavemac Silver Tip XL (410) - knot: 28mm loft: 65mm
Shavemac Silver Tip XXL (227) - knot: 30mm loft: 68mm
Therefore while people tend to only talk about brushes in terms of knot size, I believe this is because of the general assumption that a brush with a smaller knot has an appropriately smaller loft, and vice versa.

As to the issue at hand - Seraphim, I do believe you have a valid complaint.
...or at least I did...
Until I checked the knot size on my Shavemac! Sure enough, it's a little more than 25mm! Now I'm as confused as you are. Are all Shavemacs 2mm larger then they're supposed to be? Or is it like trying to sue McDonald's because their Quarter-Pounders don't weigh 0.25 lbs? :lol:
Maybe the knot size is measured at the actual knot, which is embedded in the handle where we can't measure it accurately?
 
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