#21 retainer-ring repair ID

[ChiefBroom]

Picked up this #21 on eBay recently. It's in very, very nice condition -- absolutely no flea bites. But when I looked at it carefully in ordinary indoor light and without magnification, I noticed what appeared to be some irregularity in the crimped ring that retains the inner barrel and TTO knob. It's subtle, but I think unmistakable. I can also feel ridges with my fingernail. Odd thing is the ridges in that appear in the photos seem to correspond with the wider-spaced barber-pole design in the upper handle.

Does anyone else think this looks normal?

Still getting the hang of photographing razors.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[alex2363]

looks repaired to me.

 

[Copierguy]

My first thought is that those are milling marks from the knurling....but I have not run a lathe in over 40 years.

 

[taco8slo]

That would be lame if the seller did the repair and didn't disclose, I get frustrated with things like that, but the razor looks great and if it works well then enjoy a very nice looking #21.

Those lines that correlate with the knurling could be from overzealous cleaning with a knife or sharp object...

 

[ChiefBroom]

That would be lame if the seller did the repair and didn't disclose, I get frustrated with things like that, but the razor looks great and if it works well then enjoy a very nice looking #21.

Those lines that correlate with the knurling could be from overzealous cleaning with a knife or sharp object...

Seller said he didn't know and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. And he to offered accept a return and refund the price. The reason I posted the question is that if the prevailing view is that the marks are consistent with original machining, I wouldn't feel right about returning it. On the other hand, if opinion here is that the handle was re-crimped, I'm going to send it back. I got it for a pretty good price. But I didn't intend to buy a repaired razor. Pity because the thing is otherwise really sweet.

 

[cxg231]

Looks like original machining marks to me. Crimping from a repair wouldn't line up perfectly with the knurling on the handle.

 

[GeorgeMason]

Looks like original machining marks to me. Crimping from a repair wouldn't line up perfectly with the knurling on the handle.

That is what I thought, If they didn't machine in the groove after the knurling you would get over run at the edge where the metal was pushed from the knurling tool. It would be interesting to see if other #21s have the same marks first before sending it back.

 

[shanman]

Repair marks would go round the bevel, not chatter marks. Gillette was not known for absolutely perfect machining and plating, even on the rhodium beauties.

My wild guess was there were some factory knurling that extended into the area that was later crimped during the manufacture process- hence the chatter marks that correspond with the barberpole knurling. I have nothing to back this up, just a probable hypothesis of course. Shave with it man.

 

[ChiefBroom]

Repair marks would go round the bevel, not chatter marks. Gillette was not known for absolutely perfect machining and plating, even on the rhodium beauties.

My wild guess was there were some factory knurling that extended into the area that was later crimped during the manufacture process- hence the chatter marks that correspond with the barberpole knurling. I have nothing to back this up, just a probable hypothesis of course. Shave with it man.

Thanks for the reply. I have no doubt this would make a great shaver, but I already have a couple of nice user #21s. What I want is a non-mint example I won't feel bad about using but that
doesn't have plating (e.g., flea bites) or knob-drop issues and hasn't been repaired. If this isn't that, I'd rather save the money for one that is. If it is that, then it wouldn't be right for me to send it back based on a mistaken claim that it has been re-crimped, although the Seller has offered to take it back in either case. So the Seller isn't the issue.

Beside all that, I'm just curious about these things.

I'm on the road and only have one other #21 with me. Here are comparable shots of it. Some tooling marks show (I don't know much machine shop nomenclature). But a difference I note is in the cleanness of the the upper and lower edges. I bought a '58 TV Special that had very obviously been re-crimped, and it had the same distinctive characteristic. It looks to me like something that might result from a less controlled process with looser tolerances, e.g., modified pipe-cutter or rolling on the back of a knife blade. I do agree with the observation regarding chatter marks corresponding with the knurling.

 

[Manning]

That doesn't look like a repair to me. A crimp would go around the handle, not down following the pattern of the original knurling.

Also, definitely plus one on Gillette's imperfect machining. I once had a 16 that had a chunk missing out of the bottom of the TTO knob. It flowed exactly from the knurling on the side of the knob, so I assume during the machining process the guy made a mistake and continued onto the bottom.

 

[ChiefBroom]

That doesn't look like a repair to me. A crimp would go around the handle, not down following the pattern of the original knurling.

Also, definitely plus one on Gillette's imperfect machining. I once had a 16 that had a chunk missing out of the bottom of the TTO knob. It flowed exactly from the knurling on the side of the knob, so I assume during the machining process the guy made a mistake and continued onto the bottom.

Thanks for the reply. Now I'm starting to wonder myself. But it isn't just the ridges in the trough. What about the edges and the general lumpy, irregularity that makes it look to me like metal was pushed forward and pressure was inconsistently applied? Not arguing, just asking.

 

[ChiefBroom]

For another comparison, below are pics of a two Flare-tipped SSs, one of which I know was repaired and the other apparently not.

I do have to say that the "evidence" in the re-crimped SS is more obvious than in the #21 and also that the indented ring (or whatever it is) in the SS looks smoother (could just be the photo) than in the user #21 above with flea-bites that I'm sure hasn't been repaired.

View attachment 242857View attachment 242858

 

[ChiefBroom]

Thanks for the replies. I'd be interested to learn anyone else's thoughts as well. It's good education for me. The preponderance of opinion so far, however, seems to be that the markings do not evidence repair. Although I remain skeptical, I've decided to keep the razor, try it out, and then probably offer it up on BST with full disclosure and a bit off the price I paid, which was, I think, not too high for the razor whatever its story might be. It's a beauty.

 

[alex2363]

I learned something new too, it looked repaired to me but it wasnt.

 

[Jbum]

Looks like mill chatter marks to me they are to symmetrical to be a repair.

 

[ChiefBroom]

Looks like mill chatter marks to me they are to symmetrical to be a repair.

Thanks for the reply. I'm actually starting to believe. What do you think about the irregularities around the edge? They're more pronounced than others I've seen. But maybe it was within tolerance.