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1918 Gillette Khaki Set Razor Cap Question

Hello,

My current understanding is that the Gillette "old style" razor came with either a thin or thick cap, the thin cap being the earlier design. What is the correct cap that belongs with a 1918 army contract khaki set razor serial number J2XXX? What is the measured thickness of the correct cap for verification purposes? Thanks for your consideration.
 
Never measured it but it should be the thin cap. I think the thick caps came in the 20s after the introduction of the New Improved.
 
I need a thin top cap then in order to complete a khaki set which came with what I believe to be the thick cap. Is this something I can find easily without the need to purchase another entire razor or another entire set?

Another question I had related to the khaki set is if there were ever any changes made to the ball style handle throughout the life of the old type razor that would distinguish whether it was civilian or us army contract?
 
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R

romsitsa

Thin caps were prone to bend out of shape, so getting a mint one is not the easiest, some luck will be needed.
There were different ball end handle versions but the civilian/army issue were the same. The serial number (batches of 100) and property of... stamp in the comb and case marks army issue.
 
Do you know if the standard "old type" razor outside of either the civilian or army issue khaki set had the same handle as well? Does the patent date stamped on the handle tell you anything relevant about its age?
 
R

romsitsa

Canadian and US produced ball ends were different. While there is only one version of the US made ball end (pre 1921) Canada had several versions, “normal”, thin, thin smooth ball end, thin smooth. Canada struggled with handle production, so came up with their own designs (seemingly much earlier than the classic ball end was introduced in the US).
After the original patents expired, the “normal” ball end handle remained in production, but without the patent stamps.
Then came the New type ball end handle with the New razors in 1929-30. This had a new patent stamp, thinner neck and slightly different shaped ball.
And some late Old types (post 1921) had the same New type handle, but without any patent stamp.

From Achim:

“Normal” pre 1921 ball end:

Early Canadian ball end:

Thin Canadian:

Post 1921 ball end:

New type ball end:
 
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The handle that came with this set looks like the pre 1921 from your link, and is stamped on the tube above the ball end with Pat. Nov 15.04.
 
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I stumbled upon what I think is a Canadian made Khaki Gillette Thin Cap in a Thrift Shop (these are called Op Shops in Australia - Op being short for Opportunity), and its cap measures 1.55 mm in thickness.
It was either new old stock, or had been fastidiously maintained, as it looks brand new. Its original box however was a basket case.
There was also a couple more there which I picked up at the same time, a near pristine English Red Tip Rocket, and an English Flare Tip in good condition. All for the princely total sum of $50 AUD (about $35 USD), which is expensive for an Op Shop, but I thought pretty good value in the real world.
B3082548-8D14-4236-B464-37B3DF87AFE1.jpeg
 
On mine, which is a an early J serial number and says "Property U S Army," the cap and baseplate are almost flush. Yours has a gap -- is it tightened?

On mine, the baseplate appears to be thinner than yours, and the cap perhaps a bit thicker.

The razor weighs 52.5 grams on my inexpensive digital scale. I could weigh the cap and base if you like.

Many that have military serial numbers do not say "Property U S Army," and I suspect some without military serial numbers went into Khaki kits.

We're talking about millions of razors produced in a hurry. I doubt part tolerances were as precise as normal, and certainly not as precise as modern manufacturing. They must have had many production lines with different part templates, plus the stamping machines probably wore down over time.

I am confident my set is genuine, in part because the condition of all the parts is consistent. If any part would be replaced, it would most likely be the base because of bent teeth, but that's where the serial number is. If the condition of wear on the cap matches the rest of the razor, I wouldn't worry about fine measurements.

BTW, I brought my Khaki set to a Memorial Day ceremony and showed it to a senior officer in uniform. He had never seen one. This is kinda sad. The razor really helps bring home the First World War.

Since we're on the subject, did the length of the teeth on Old Type razors change over time? Were the newer ones a bit longer?
 
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On mine, which is a an early J serial number and says "Property U S Army," the cap and baseplate are almost flush. Yours has a gap -- is it tightened?

On mine, the baseplate appears to be thinner than yours, and the cap perhaps a bit thicker.

The razor weighs 52.5 grams on my inexpensive digital scale. I could weigh the cap and base if you like.

Many that have military serial numbers do not say "Property U S Army," and I suspect some without military serial numbers went into Khaki kits.

We're talking about millions of razors produced in a hurry. I doubt part tolerances were as precise as normal, and certainly not as precise as modern manufacturing. They must have had many production lines with different part templates, plus the stamping machines probably wore down over time.

I am confident my set is genuine, in part because the condition of all the parts is consistent. If any part would be replaced, it would most likely be the base because of bent teeth, but that's where the serial number is. If the condition of wear on the cap matches the rest of the razor, I wouldn't worry about fine measurements.

But since we're on the subject, did the length of the teeth on Old Type razors change over time? Were the newer ones a bit longer?

Mine weighs in at 50 grams. The cap seats against the base plate along each of its edges, and leaves a small gap in the centre. It has a CAN PAT number and GILLETTE stamped on the handle.
 
Mine weighs in at 50 grams. The cap seats against the base plate along each of its edges, and leaves a small gap in the centre. It has a CAN PAT number and GILLETTE stamped on the handle.

I've got some that leave a small gap in the center in very good condition. I'm beginning to think it was deliberate. The gap in the center would make the razor a bit more aggressive, and a slight curve might make the blade a bit more rigid.

Is it on both sides? I've got a very nice nickel-plated one from the 1920s with the same curvature on both sides (and only one corner tooth bent).

I wonder if there was a period when this curve/gap occurred?

Do you think it shaves differently? Any better or worse?

On the other hand, some of these razors have taken a few hard knocks. Most of it is damage to the teeth. I'm trying to figure out how such curvature damage could occur to the head? Or perhaps it was sloppy manufacture (which was not beyond Gillette - handles)? Or perhaps it was a feature, not a bug?

A first step is to make sure you tighten the handle, but not over-tighten. Tip: Tighten the handle by gripping the neck of the handle, not the body/tube. This will reduce stress on the tube, which is subject to cracking.
 
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I've got some that leave a small gap in the center in very good condition. I'm beginning to think it was deliberate. The gap in the center would make the razor a bit more aggressive, and a slight curve might make the blade a bit more rigid.

Is it on both sides? I've got a very nice nickel-plated one from the 1920s with the same curvature on both sides (and only one corner tooth bent).

I wonder if there was a period when this curve/gap occurred?

Do you think it shaves differently? Any better or worse?

On the other hand, some of these razors have taken a few hard knocks. Most of it is damage to the teeth. I'm trying to figure out how such curvature damage could occur to the head? Or perhaps it was sloppy manufacture (which was not beyond Gillette - handles)? Or perhaps it was a feature, not a bug?

A first step is to make sure you tighten the handle, but not over-tighten. Tip: Tighten the handle by gripping the neck of the handle, not the body/tube. This will reduce stress on the tube, which is subject to cracking.

Thanks for the reply. The gap is the same on both ends, and I think is too large for manufacturing tolerance, so I suspect it is deliberate. Maybe something that is is unique to the Canadian manufactured thin cap Old Types. Everything else appears to be completely straight and true. There are no bent teeth.

The handle has just a hint of a hairline crack at the top. I'm going to fill it internally with epoxy resin and glass cloth to try and strengthen and minimize any further crack propagation.
 
I used mine this morning, and it did seem to be more aggressive than with a flush-flat cap. You need to use a lighter touch with a sharp blade. Some people might prefer it, others not.

Gillette came out with the New Standard around this time, which had a large blade gap and was much more aggressive. Perhaps this cap was a small move in that direction with the Old Type. Having the cap flush on the corners would make sense, and I still think curvature of the blade along the guard side would probably add some rigidity similar to bending it between the two cutting edges. So people need to beware that there is some difference between Old Types in how they shave.

As to mucking around with the handle, I suggest skipping that. Lots of razors have a small crack. It is part of the character/patina. After a century, if it hasn't split more than halfway through, it is probably stable.

Here's what I do: I tighten and untighten the handle by holding the throat of the handle, the part that screws into the head. You could also use a M5 washer to make it easier to secure the handle without excessive tightening.

Some people tend to overtighten handles. Doing this while holding the tube of the handle may have contributed to the split problem being so common. But some were apparently split right from the factory, leaving us with some beautiful mint razors.

While it is nice to have a good, original handle for the century-shave experience, I am quite content to put a more modern handle on it. I've got a hollow aluminum 1940s Tech handle on one of mine.

After using an Old Type or single ring, which are small and light, modern razor handles seem WAY to heavy and long. If you need exercise in the morning, perhaps they should sell barbell shaped/sized razor handles.
 
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I used mine this morning, and it did seem to be more aggressive than with a flush-flat cap. You need to use a lighter touch with a sharp blade. Some people might prefer it, others not.

Gillette came out with the New Standard around this time, which had a large blade gap and was much more aggressive. Perhaps this cap was a small move in that direction with the Old Type. Having the cap flush on the corners would make sense, and I still think curvature of the blade along the guard side would probably add some rigidity similar to bending it between the two cutting edges. So people need to beware that there is some difference between Old Types in how they shave.

As to mucking around with the handle, I suggest skipping that. Lots of razors have a small crack. It is part of the character/patina. After a century, if it hasn't split more than halfway through, it is probably stable.

Here's what I do: I tighten and untighten the handle by holding the throat of the handle, the part that screws into the head. You could also use a M5 washer to make it easier to secure the handle without excessive tightening.

Some people tend to overtighten handles. Doing this while holding the tube of the handle may have contributed to the split problem being so common. But some were apparently split right from the factory, leaving us with some beautiful mint razors.

While it is nice to have a good, original handle for the century-shave experience, I am quite content to put a more modern handle on it. I've got a hollow aluminum 1940s Tech handle on one of mine.

After using an Old Type or single ring, which are small and light, modern razor handles seem WAY to heavy and long. If you need exercise in the morning, perhaps they should sell barbell shaped/sized razor handles.
Many thanks for the background information and advice. I like it when there's nothing to fix.
 
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