1911 Part Deux

[BigFoot]

I am making this thread as to not distract from the one Rob has going.

I have been looking at 1911’s I really want a full size in .45 for shooting and maybe some matches as I get more time in a few years. I will stick with Glocks for carry.

All of the **** I am reading about Robs Range Officer and all the issues a lot of the rest of y’all have am I nuts for wanting one? Am I spoiled by Glock or is it just expected if you have a 1911 you have to screw with it? I want a pistol I can shoot not have to always work on.

I really don’t count my wife’s Micro 9 even though it is a 1911.

 

[ColtRevolver]

I guess I have been lucky. I have never owned a 1911 that choked on a particular mag or bullet weight or profile. I shot a Springfield for a few years with no problems. My regular shooter 1911 is a Colt National Match now. It's not given me any trouble. Matter of fact, I dont recall it ever failing to feed or otherwise function properly.

 

[jkingrph]

I have 3 full size, two Colt Gold CUp models, one .45acp the other 10mm auto, and a Kimber Ultra Match. along with a compact size Kimber Ultra Carry and a Para Ordnance PDA, LDA ( personal defense assistant, light double action) both .45 and have never had a minutes trouble out of any of them, no failure to feed, failure to extracts, or stovepipes.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Two Kimbers here: TLE II in .45 and a Stainless Target II in 9 mm - both perform flawless. Forgot, I also have a S&W .45 which I bought used, and it is running without problems as well.

 

[nikonNUT]

I guess I have been lucky. I have never owned a 1911 that choked on a particular mag or bullet weight or profile. I shot a Springfield for a few years with no problems. My regular shooter 1911 is a Colt National Match now. It's not given me any trouble. Matter of fact, I dont recall it ever failing to feed or otherwise function properly.

^^^^ What he said. I don't think I have enough fingers to count the 1911s I have possessed. They include Kimbers, Colts, a Wilson, Nighthawks, STIs, and even a Strayer-Voight Infinity. Calibers? 9mm, 10mm, .45ACP, 9x23 (The SVI), and .40S&W (Also the SVI. Yay extra slide!). I can rattle them off if you want but I have had to send exactly one, a Kimber, back because the front sigh was off a bit and Kimber fits them tight enough that pushing them yourself is a herculean if not impossible task. Feeding issues? None and my favorite .45 bullet to reload was the old Oregon Trail laser-cast 200gr semi-wadcutter. As always YMMV...

 

[Whisky]

Of you stick with a 5 inch all steel 1911 from a reputable maker I doubt you’ll have any issues. I personally have never had any issues with the 1911 platform and I’ve had 6 or 7 over the years. The pistols that seem to have issues seem to have a shorter barrel, smaller frame, or a a gun that claims to be this accurate, or competition ready, or something like that. The 1911 as originally designed, shot with 230grn RN bullets will usually run without issues or the need to “tune” anything. Companies like to tout the accuracy of their guns and that usually means tightening tolerances on a pistol that was originally designed to have fairly “loose” tolerances (or clearances). If you take an old colt or old GI 1911 a lot of them sound like rattle traps but they go bang every time you pull the trigger.

I’m not saying that a 1911 built tighter can’t be reliable, just that it may take a little more finessing before i would consider it an EDC. I have a Springfield RO compact that I used to EDC. I put close to 1,500rnds through it before I started carrying it and another 2,000 after with no issues. The only reason I’m not carrying it now is because I put new sights on it and haven’t been able to shoot it enough to get used to them.

 

[Ad Astra]

Shoot, I made a 1911 out of an old Essex frame, a Sarco slide and a bag of parts. Did buy a hammer and trigger I liked. (And I did take it to a GS at one point, can't remember why).

Wound up with a Gold Cup lookalike, cost was minimal. Figured out it works perfect with Kimber mags... And that was that. Got 1911 urge out my system.

Too heavy, only holds 8.

G30 SF is the better carry.


AA

 

[simon1]

ALL of dem der electric pistols are UN-reliable. Git ya a RE-volver.

Unless you get a good Colt. JMB got it right for a combat one.

But you could get arguments on that.

 

[OkieStubble]

I am making this thread as to not distract from the one Rob has going.

I welcome a distraction from my 1911 troubles.

I have been looking at 1911’s I really want a full size in .45 for shooting and maybe some matches as I get more time in a few years. I will stick with Glocks for carry.

All of the **** I am reading about Robs Range Officer and all the issues a lot of the rest of y’all have am I nuts for wanting one? Am I spoiled by Glock or is it just expected if you have a 1911 you have to screw with it? I want a pistol I can shoot not have to always work on.

I really don’t count my wife’s Micro 9 even though it is a 1911.

You're not nuts. Jump in, the water's fine! And yes, we are both Glock Diva's...

 

[OkieStubble]

I guess I have been lucky. I have never owned a 1911 that choked on a particular mag or bullet weight or profile. I shot a Springfield for a few years with no problems. My regular shooter 1911 is a Colt National Match now. It's not given me any trouble. Matter of fact, I dont recall it ever failing to feed or otherwise function properly.

See, this is where my theory is. There are quite a few gents in here, who are saying they haven't had problems, but their 1911's don't seem to be recent manufactured 1911's? They mostly seem a decade older in production or longer?

My theory is, it's only recently manufactured 1911's. I have searched many 1911 forums since the purchase of my Springfield RO. First production RO's back in 2011 to about 2017, you don't really hear of any problems. Only until recently when manufacturing has been trying to keep up with extreme demand.

 

[Mhinagoya]

Sorry for the long post.

I own a dozen or so 1911 pistols. All but two are in 45 ACP. The two odd ones are in 38 Super, and one of those is a 17 round double stack. I have had a feeding issue with one of the 45s and swapping magazines fixed it. This is an OLD design. It was never intended to be produced on CNC equipment and assembled by robots. JMB designed it for hand fitting and assembly. Why did the old guns work? Because of how they were built.
I own some high end pistols, but I also own a couple by Armscor. Specifically, one Rock Island and one Citadel (same maker, different importers). Both Armscor guns functioned 100% right out of the box with any magazines I had and any ammo. I was amazed till I realized that these guns were built in the Philippines and, you guessed it, assembled and fit by hand.
The double stack came as a 9mm/.22 TCM. I bought a 38 Super barrel, fit it to the slide, reamed the chamber to set the headspace, had EGW angle bore a bushing for it (which I did the final fitting on), and after re-springing for the much hotter round, it has run flawlessly. This, from a 1911 shooting a round which that particular pistol was never built for. By the way, the rimless 38 Super (called a super comp) can be loaded to push 124/125 grain bullets in excess of 1,500 fps. without exceeding SAAMI specs for chamber pressure. That is .357 performance from a 17 shot automatic. It is scary accurate and has a 3 lb. trigger. Just because I could, I also fit a 9X26 barrel to the same gun. Yes, I own a 1911 that will reliably run four different calibers with a barrel and recoil spring swap. All four cartridges use the same magazines.
The original design had fairly generous tolerances, but clearances and fit were critical, as was barrel lockup and timing. In my opinion, this is a function of the original design, utilizing the machine capability of the day.

Cranking tolerances down tighter will not address clearance requirements, and neither will address barrel lockup or timing. Again, in my opinion, the biggest issue with these guns is that they appear to be very simple. As far as basic mechanical operation and part count, there isn't much there. However, monkey around with timing, lockup, clearances, and dynamic part relationships and these guns will simply refuse to run. At least that has been my experience. I haven't found them difficult to 'fix', but one really needs to know what one is doing.

Were I to speculate, I would guess that the pistol manufacturers (the Philippine companies excepted) have run the numbers and found it economically advantageous to simply CNC everything, slap the guns together, and let the consumers do the testing. The percentage of guns coming back and the cost to fix them is probably far lower than the cost of hand fitting all of them in the first place. I don't mean this to be a criticism. If I am correct, then it would be driven by simple economics.
If you want a hand fit pistol, companies like Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk, etc. will sell you one.

Oh yes, I own three Glocks (9mm, 40S&W, and 10mm) and they are nice guns, but I shoot the 1911s. It's all in the way they fit my hand and in that amazing trigger.

Bill.

 

[nikonNUT]

ALL of dem der electric pistols are UN-reliable. Git ya a RE-volver.

Unless you get a good Colt. JMB got it right for a combat one.

But you could get arguments on that.

Meh... Savage should have won that contract with their Model 1907.

 

[stone and strop]

I have a current 1911 Sig in 45 and not a single issue so far. Only a couple thousand down range so far but flawless performance.

 

[OkieStubble]

Sorry for the long post.

I own a dozen or so 1911 pistols. All but two are in 45 ACP. The two odd ones are in 38 Super, and one of those is a 17 round double stack. I have had a feeding issue with one of the 45s and swapping magazines fixed it. This is an OLD design. It was never intended to be produced on CNC equipment and assembled by robots. JMB designed it for hand fitting and assembly. Why did the old guns work? Because of how they were built.
I own some high end pistols, but I also own a couple by Armscor. Specifically, one Rock Island and one Citadel (same maker, different importers). Both Armscor guns functioned 100% right out of the box with any magazines I had and any ammo. I was amazed till I realized that these guns were built in the Philippines and, you guessed it, assembled and fit by hand.
The double stack came as a 9mm/.22 TCM. I bought a 38 Super barrel, fit it to the slide, reamed the chamber to set the headspace, had EGW angle bore a bushing for it (which I did the final fitting on), and after re-springing for the much hotter round, it has run flawlessly. This, from a 1911 shooting a round which that particular pistol was never built for. By the way, the rimless 38 Super (called a super comp) can be loaded to push 124/125 grain bullets in excess of 1,500 fps. without exceeding SAAMI specs for chamber pressure. That is .357 performance from a 17 shot automatic. It is scary accurate and has a 3 lb. trigger. Just because I could, I also fit a 9X26 barrel to the same gun. Yes, I own a 1911 that will reliably run four different calibers with a barrel and recoil spring swap. All four cartridges use the same magazines.
The original design had fairly generous tolerances, but clearances and fit were critical, as was barrel lockup and timing. In my opinion, this is a function of the original design, utilizing the machine capability of the day.

Cranking tolerances down tighter will not address clearance requirements, and neither will address barrel lockup or timing. Again, in my opinion, the biggest issue with these guns is that they appear to be very simple. As far as basic mechanical operation and part count, there isn't much there. However, monkey around with timing, lockup, clearances, and dynamic part relationships and these guns will simply refuse to run. At least that has been my experience. I haven't found them difficult to 'fix', but one really needs to know what one is doing.

Were I to speculate, I would guess that the pistol manufacturers (the Philippine companies excepted) have run the numbers and found it economically advantageous to simply CNC everything, slap the guns together, and let the consumers do the testing. The percentage of guns coming back and the cost to fix them is probably far lower than the cost of hand fitting all of them in the first place. I don't mean this to be a criticism. If I am correct, then it would be driven by simple economics.
If you want a hand fit pistol, companies like Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk, etc. will sell you one.

Oh yes, I own three Glocks (9mm, 40S&W, and 10mm) and they are nice guns, but I shoot the 1911s. It's all in the way they fit my hand and in that amazing trigger.

Bill.

Great post!

 

[ScottChapin]

I have heard that anything smaller than a government is not as reliable as a government. You couldn’t prove it by me though.

I have a Volt government rail gun that has run flawlessly and a Kimber 3” Ultra HD which has also run flawlessly. Both were pricey guns, so I don’t know if that has a bearing on the quality of machining.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mhinagoya]

I have heard that anything smaller than a government is not as reliable as a government. You couldn’t prove it by me though. . .

I have heard the same thing, and often, from experts. There are three 3" Kimbers here and none have ever failed to run (2 of the 3 have aluminum frames). There is one 4 inch Springfield and it did balk, but a magazine change cured it. There is also a 4.25 inch Buhl (marked Magnum Research) in the safe and it runs correctly as well.
In my personal experience, the little guns need the recoil springs changed when Kimber says they should be changed. Do that, use Kimber mags, and they will run. I have fed them everything from 165 grain Nosler target hollow points to Speer Gold Dots, and even 230 grain hardball. They ran.

I took the Citadel (single stack Super), stripped the parkerizing off, polished it out, fit new innards and new sights and made a BBQ gun out of it. The grips, I had hand made in SE Asia from water buffalo bone. Yes, I did the hot bluing with Blind Hogg's recipe and a turkey fryer. It rides in Del Fatti leather and is a stunner. All from what was originally a $400 Philippine pistol. It was a fun project and I carry it occasionally.

Anything I type is only my opinion, so don't put too much stock in it as I am not a gunsmith, although I do work on my own guns. One other thing, I have found that there is no such thing as a free education. I chose to buy tools and parts (Brownells loves me), study books and manuals, then proceed to destroy hundreds of dollars worth of parts from Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nowlin, etc. while learning how to work on my pistols. Anyone who has armorer's training/is an armorer has my undying respect because I have learned that any expert makes what they are doing look easy, and hundreds of dollars worth of tools and more hundreds in mangled parts might make it easy for me too.

I love 1911 pistols while having a realistic view regarding their design pedigree. They were designed through prototyping, not in a computer, and the intention was that they be built by skilled craftsmen, back when this country had some of those around.

By the way, if anyone wants that hot bluing recipe, sent me a pm and I'll send it to you in a PDF file. It's the original from Blind Hogg plus some of my notes.

Bill.