Does anyone know the stone Ohzuku 12K (http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/pro...kyoto--koernung-mehr-als-12000-ozl1277.html)? Any news about? Can a newbie use this stone?
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Ohzuku
- Thread starter waxe
- Start date
In general they can be good stones. It's a natural stone, so each is a little different.
Some can be overly hard and a bit scratch. Others can be very slow cutting. Some are just right.
If you do a search here for Ozuku or Oozuku you will find a good bit of info.
Hope it helps
Some can be overly hard and a bit scratch. Others can be very slow cutting. Some are just right.
If you do a search here for Ozuku or Oozuku you will find a good bit of info.
Hope it helps
looks like an Oozuku Asagi (oozuku refers to the mine -indicted by the stamp, asagi refers to color)
this will be a very hard stone, and good for finishing razors, as for whether it's for beginner or not, that's tough to say I'm a beginner and I have one. it's not my favorite stones but the price was right -and it's impossible to put a grit rating on a natural stone as they vary even amongst the same mine/strata, but it will likely be above 12000 grit if you use very light pressure. it may be TOO hard as well, at least for a beginner. Like I said, I have one but i prefer the feedback I get from other stones vs the Oozuku Asagi... but it's a cheap way to get into Japanese stones (think I paid $69 for mine and it's larger than the stone on the link - tho it IS a good size for razors).
you will want to get a Tomo Nagura with it (tomo= same, nagura is basically a finger/slurry stone -so a stone from same mine/strata etc - which they also sell on the website - go to TOMO NAGURA link on side of page, look for Oozuku/Ohzuku Asagi - 15 euro) being so hard it will take more time to build a slurry than say a coticle, but you don't want a very heavy slurry with japanese stones anyhow.
so if you get it, make a light slurry and finish with laps on just water with very very light pressure.
I am sure you will get responses from others with FAR more experience with Jnats than me.
this will be a very hard stone, and good for finishing razors, as for whether it's for beginner or not, that's tough to say I'm a beginner and I have one. it's not my favorite stones but the price was right -and it's impossible to put a grit rating on a natural stone as they vary even amongst the same mine/strata, but it will likely be above 12000 grit if you use very light pressure. it may be TOO hard as well, at least for a beginner. Like I said, I have one but i prefer the feedback I get from other stones vs the Oozuku Asagi... but it's a cheap way to get into Japanese stones (think I paid $69 for mine and it's larger than the stone on the link - tho it IS a good size for razors).
you will want to get a Tomo Nagura with it (tomo= same, nagura is basically a finger/slurry stone -so a stone from same mine/strata etc - which they also sell on the website - go to TOMO NAGURA link on side of page, look for Oozuku/Ohzuku Asagi - 15 euro) being so hard it will take more time to build a slurry than say a coticle, but you don't want a very heavy slurry with japanese stones anyhow.
so if you get it, make a light slurry and finish with laps on just water with very very light pressure.
I am sure you will get responses from others with FAR more experience with Jnats than me.
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It's only my opinion...but a stone being "to hard for beginners" is junk.
You never hear someone say Trans. Arkansas stone aren't for beginner... and Arkies are as hard as any stone out there.
It's just some stone are good, some aren't so good.
You never hear someone say Trans. Arkansas stone aren't for beginner... and Arkies are as hard as any stone out there.
It's just some stone are good, some aren't so good.
+1 IMO also
i share your opinion... and I AM a beginner
not only do stones vary, but so do the abilities, sensibilities, patience and intuition of "beginners" so I'm certainly not going to argue the point.
he asked, I gave my response AS a beginner. I personally feel I can get a better edge off my Okudo and Nakayamas because I can feel the feedback MUCH better than on my Oozuku, which IS a much harder stone.
good point about the potential for scratches with such a hard stone too. again a tomo nagura would help in that regard....
ADDED: think I share your opinion mostly BECAUSE i'm a beginner.
not only do stones vary, but so do the abilities, sensibilities, patience and intuition of "beginners" so I'm certainly not going to argue the point.
he asked, I gave my response AS a beginner. I personally feel I can get a better edge off my Okudo and Nakayamas because I can feel the feedback MUCH better than on my Oozuku, which IS a much harder stone.
good point about the potential for scratches with such a hard stone too. again a tomo nagura would help in that regard....
ADDED: think I share your opinion mostly BECAUSE i'm a beginner.
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It could be very hard, or not. I have a small Ozuku like that, and it's not so very hard.
Anyway - I question if that's the actual stone you'll receive, some sellers post one pic that's 'representative' of the lot.
Getting a Tomo is a good idea, or at least a small diamond Nagura - so you can raise a slurry if you need to
I didn't cruise the site, but I seem to remember them selling Nagura.
The price looks fair - the thickness is 13mm, and I prefer a bit more meat on a stone but that stone's dimensions are not a deal breaker. Price is fair, shape and overall size is nice.
How it will perform as a finisher will depend on how well you learn to use it.
Anyway - I question if that's the actual stone you'll receive, some sellers post one pic that's 'representative' of the lot.
Getting a Tomo is a good idea, or at least a small diamond Nagura - so you can raise a slurry if you need to
I didn't cruise the site, but I seem to remember them selling Nagura.
The price looks fair - the thickness is 13mm, and I prefer a bit more meat on a stone but that stone's dimensions are not a deal breaker. Price is fair, shape and overall size is nice.
How it will perform as a finisher will depend on how well you learn to use it.
it is impossible to tell if the stone is hard or not just by looking at pictures.
It is not about the hardness really it is more about what people expect from the stone when people have no experience to gauge their expectations.
Some guys expect that a Jnat will magically put an edge on the razor just by waving the blade above the stone, we all know how well that works. I have witnessed cases of shot expectations by people that have no idea what is going on but jump in with both legs in the really deep.
There is nothing wrong with owning a Jnat but first one has to know how to put a bevel and get decent shave from 8-10k synthetic. Then Jnats are not so hard to use.
@ OP make sure to ask those guys if they have tested the stone on razor and also what is their return policy if it does not work for you.
I'll agree people should not expect a stone to work like magic but that could be said for any natural stone...
I've only seen the "experienced user only" when it's related to jnats (and only recently at that)
Here's a example, JNS has a Ozuku Asagi Lv 5+ listed as "very hard stone experienced user only"
He also has a Wakasa Lv 4,5 listed with no such disclaimer.
So to some, it must not be completely about people expectations..
point well taken, though I was also going by the retailers description (granted, may not be accurate - or they may be generalizing as well):
"Size of about 145 mm x 82 mm x 13 mm, weight 380 g
Awasedo Ohzuku native to eastern quarry adjacent to the closed Nakayama quarry. This stone is characterized by similar quality - almost the hardest stone in this class with strongly-polishing effect. Optimal for razors and as extreme finish for unilateral Japanese knife cutting".
+1 if not it makes their description above moot...
Gamma also made a great point- the stone may just be representative of the product, not an actual picture of the stone itself, I'd also be sure to ask about that. they have several posted that are obviously different stones - but are they the actual stones being shipped?
One reason I really like dealing with Takeshi for Japanese stones and Jarrod for cotis - both have pictures of the actual stones AND both take the time to work with the stone to get a feel for it, and are wonderful at communicating their thoughts with the buyer to ensure one is happy with the purchase throughout the process... that is priceless, also I have had really great experiences buying from fellow B&B members who know the stones VERY well
I don't really get that either - though I am admittedly still trying to figure out some of my stones (I likely got too many too soon, but a few i just couldn't pass up - my AD wouldn't allow it LOL) I am still playing with different pressures, slurries, progressions, ad nauseum - but that's really the bulk of the fun for me too. granted, I am under no illusion that I've been able to max out on any of my stones yet - not even close - though I have certainly improved my edges substantially by practicing over and over and over, and plan on continuing the process. Shaving (comfortably) off a razor I hone brings a similar satisfaction to catching a fish on a fly I tied or on a rod I built.
actually I think that is the best advice I can give as someone who is relatively new and very much learning, to someone purchasing their first natural stone, regardless of what it is... say if the OP decides to buy this Oozuku... when you get it, play with it ALOT. I try to hone every single night before bed for at least an hour, and am glad I do because it's actually really great fun, LOL, and, more importantly the stone naturally reveals itself more easily than if you only use it infrequently.
Curious what the OP has to think about that Oozuku now?!?! LOL
I remember the intimidation and reservations i felt about japanese stones ALL too clearly before divining with both feet- another reason I am not a fan of certain websites saying stones are for experts only ie: Maxim at Japanese Natural Stones on his lv5+ Oozuku. Sure it may require more work, yes, realistically another stone may be a better first choice, but ultimately -like anything else in life - it comes down to how much time, energy and work one is willing to put into it IMO.
its a stone.... of course its hard....
if you don't think all stones are hard let me chuck a couple at you.... lol....
if you don't think all stones are hard let me chuck a couple at you.... lol....
its a stone.... of course its hard....
if you don't think all stones are hard let me chuck a couple at you.... lol....
LMAO!
PM being sent!
I don't know that being able to put a shaving edge on a razor with a 10k synth qualfies one to be an 'expert'.
Hype - is what it is. Frictionites, Double Ducks, Shapton 30k, Kanayamas, Ultimate Coticules, etc - we've all seen it and a lot of us probably bought into it at one time or another.
We all know the bevel has to be right before the edge can be good - same for any stone progression. Jnats are not unique there.
Super hard stones require a 'skill' to use at the finishing stage - so do really fast Coticules, Translucent Arks, and Eschers.
No differences to be found there either.
Are all natural stones to be considered within the domain of the expert? No.
FWIW - I own a super hard Nakayama, you'd be hard pressed to find a harder stone to be honest. It is a challenge to use at the finishing stage but I do finish on it quite regularly.
It's not just hard though - it also has a good amount of cutting capability, and good feedback. So - it's not impossible to finish on.
Therin lies the story - it's not just a paperweight. I'ts a high-quality stone with good characteristics.
All this 'tested with razors' commentary.
I have to ask this question. Whenever I see that comment, I see it associated with a stone that has it's stamps intact.
Just how is is possible to test a stone that isn't lapped? The stones I've purchased all had to be lapped flat, and lapping removes the stamps.
So - how does one test a stone with razors without lapping it first? I'd like to know how to do that.
Hype - is what it is. Frictionites, Double Ducks, Shapton 30k, Kanayamas, Ultimate Coticules, etc - we've all seen it and a lot of us probably bought into it at one time or another.
We all know the bevel has to be right before the edge can be good - same for any stone progression. Jnats are not unique there.
Super hard stones require a 'skill' to use at the finishing stage - so do really fast Coticules, Translucent Arks, and Eschers.
No differences to be found there either.
Are all natural stones to be considered within the domain of the expert? No.
FWIW - I own a super hard Nakayama, you'd be hard pressed to find a harder stone to be honest. It is a challenge to use at the finishing stage but I do finish on it quite regularly.
It's not just hard though - it also has a good amount of cutting capability, and good feedback. So - it's not impossible to finish on.
Therin lies the story - it's not just a paperweight. I'ts a high-quality stone with good characteristics.
All this 'tested with razors' commentary.
I have to ask this question. Whenever I see that comment, I see it associated with a stone that has it's stamps intact.
Just how is is possible to test a stone that isn't lapped? The stones I've purchased all had to be lapped flat, and lapping removes the stamps.
So - how does one test a stone with razors without lapping it first? I'd like to know how to do that.
Skill=Touch.
The idea of "only for expert user" come from experience of selling stones now quite a long time, i had many examples where i sold hard stone to beginner and they complained about they cant use it ! Then i send it to experience user and they tell me its the best stone they ever try
And usually lv 4 or 4, 5 stones is easier to come after coticule or other low grit stones. So it become after some costumer experience, nothing we just come up with out of the blue
How to test without stone been lapped:
Well of trying more then 1000 of stones, after you try more then 5000 stones and use them years after years every day you get a pretty good idea how they are
But still even now i have to lap some stones to see exactly how they are. When i started i had to do it with every stone.
Also been in Jnat business for a while now i see it very funny how some become "experts" of Jnats when they just was newbies and asked me many questions couple of month before.
And usually lv 4 or 4, 5 stones is easier to come after coticule or other low grit stones. So it become after some costumer experience, nothing we just come up with out of the blue
How to test without stone been lapped:
Well of trying more then 1000 of stones, after you try more then 5000 stones and use them years after years every day you get a pretty good idea how they are
But still even now i have to lap some stones to see exactly how they are. When i started i had to do it with every stone.
Also been in Jnat business for a while now i see it very funny how some become "experts" of Jnats when they just was newbies and asked me many questions couple of month before.
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~~~looks identical in size to the one I bought from Maxim a few months back
same stamp too
When you ask "can a newbie use this stone?", I don't know your skillset. I can tell you this- I've been using this as a finisher mainly after completing dulicot (from dull to shave ready on a coticule) and I've not had any trouble learning the stone
That said, I use it a lot like i use a coticule when honing...work up a good slurry, keep it wet, go through the dilutions, you shouldn't have any trouble following that route
this is the amount of slurry I use when finishing with this stone-, & I like to start out doing 1/2 strokes, work my way into doing x strokes, swaying x's
hope this helps
Best,
Jake
Reddick Fla.
+1The idea of "only for expert user" come from experience of selling stones now quite a long time, i had many examples where i sold hard stone to beginner and they complained about they cant use it ! Then i send it to experience user and they tell me its the best stone they ever try
And usually lv 4 or 4, 5 stones is easier to come after coticule or other low grit stones. So it become after some costumer experience, nothing we just come up with out of the blue
How to test without stone been lapped:
Well of trying more then 1000 of stones, after you try more then 5000 stones and use them years after years every day you get a pretty good idea how they are
But still even now i have to lap some stones to see exactly how they are. When i started i had to do it with every stone.
Also been in Jnat business for a while now i see it very funny how some become "experts" of Jnats when they just was newbies and asked me many questions couple of month before.
I wonder how some people are so knowledgeable when they have tried only a few stones, nagura do not count.
When I started with Jnats 2 years a go So Yamashita would say the same thing hard stones only for experienced honers.
i am no expert on JNATS by any means... i have 3 and can't tell you their names.... 2 are lvl5 and 1 lvl4..... and i have some nagura gifted me by overly generous friends here...
i also have cotis/slates/thuri/arkies/and a spyderco UF....
none of the stones are "hard to use".... they are all different... but if people will remove the "i do 10laps with 3 X strokes and a curly Q at the end then i do 6.54 half laps with a pirouette" *(didn't need spell check for that) mindset
and just understand... no 2 stones are exactly alike... no 2 razors are exactly alike.... you MUST set a good bevel... you MUST take your time with your progression.... the edge takes as long as it takes and not a second quicker.... its not the violin its the guy playing it....
and Gamma is deadnuts square 1000% correct.... someone please teach me to hone on a unlapped fairly rough cut stone.....
i also have cotis/slates/thuri/arkies/and a spyderco UF....
none of the stones are "hard to use".... they are all different... but if people will remove the "i do 10laps with 3 X strokes and a curly Q at the end then i do 6.54 half laps with a pirouette" *(didn't need spell check for that
) mindset and just understand... no 2 stones are exactly alike... no 2 razors are exactly alike.... you MUST set a good bevel... you MUST take your time with your progression.... the edge takes as long as it takes and not a second quicker.... its not the violin its the guy playing it....
and Gamma is deadnuts square 1000% correct.... someone please teach me to hone on a unlapped fairly rough cut stone.....
I don't consider myself to be an expert.
I don't think anyone referred to themselves an expert.
I don't believe for a minute that i need to be an expert.
Who decides this expert status?
Is a used car salesman that's sold over 50,000 cars, or someone that's driven 75 different cars by default an automotive 'expert'?
That's a rhetorical question. No need to respond.
What I've read so far - not every stone is 'tested' some are assumed to be good.
They are assumed to be good because similar stones were good.
And;
So far - no one outside of this forum has told me super-hard stones are for experts only.
And that's after lengthy discussions with people that have decades of Jnat use under their belts.
I don't think anyone referred to themselves an expert.
I don't believe for a minute that i need to be an expert.
Who decides this expert status?
Is a used car salesman that's sold over 50,000 cars, or someone that's driven 75 different cars by default an automotive 'expert'?
That's a rhetorical question. No need to respond.
What I've read so far - not every stone is 'tested' some are assumed to be good.
They are assumed to be good because similar stones were good.
And;
So far - no one outside of this forum has told me super-hard stones are for experts only.
And that's after lengthy discussions with people that have decades of Jnat use under their belts.
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