Lapping film, try it.

[Slash McCoy]

View attachment 1260318
I am a bit confused about the 3M 261x. 3u should be 8000, 1u is 12000, but it is different on 261x.
Should I get 0.3u? To achieve the effect of 12000(normal 1u).
Thank you

In actual use, 3u gives results similar to an 8k stone. 1u gives results a bit finer than a typical 12k grit stone. .3u is not needed and should not be used. Instead, set up an official Method Honing 3 stage diamond/balsa progression. You will be glad you did. Look up "Newbie Honing Compendium".

 

[Jasper J.]

In actual use, 3u gives results similar to an 8k stone. 1u gives results a bit finer than a typical 12k grit stone. .3u is not needed and should not be used. Instead, set up an official Method Honing 3 stage diamond/balsa progression. You will be glad you did. Look up "Newbie Honing Compendium".

Mr. Slash,
But in the classification of 3M 261x, 1u is 8000, and .3u is 15000. Is it enough to stay at 8000？ because I will add three balsa after it.
Thank you.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Mr. Slash,
But in the classification of 3M 261x, 1u is 8000, and .3u is 15000. Is it enough to stay at 8000？ because I will add three balsa after it.
Thank you.

NO. Read my lips. 1μ is a little finer than a 12k Naniwa. I frequently use both so I know. THe Shapton 16k is equivalent to .92μ. Printed right on the stone. See Sharpening Stones: Micron & Grit | - https://blog.fendrihan.com/2019/03/sharpening-stones-micron-grit/

Abrasives in Micron Scale – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener - https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/forums/topic/abrasives-in-micron-scale/ for one of many charts found online. As you can see there are dozens of grit scales.

THis chart is commonly referenced by razor honers.

Micron to Grit Conversion Calculator

Micron to grit calculator to convert grit to micron size. Easily convert grit to micron and micron to grit.

www.bestsharpeningstones.com

THat calculator says 1μ equals 22k grit.

Last but not least, check this page out. THere is a direct conversion chart between lapping film μ rating and grit.

How to Use Lapping Film for Sharpening

Learn how to sharpen using lapping film and get a sharpener edge on your knives and tools than you ever imagined. Images and video included.

www.bestsharpeningstones.com

THat's the commonly accepted grit size of lapping films. You can call it the way you like. THis is how we call it here. I won't argue about it. If you want to disagree then feel free to do so but this is the way it is.

BTW, diamond paste at .1μ is regarded to be about 200,000 grit.

Yes, stop at 1μ film. The .3μ film is totally redundant because you will be going from 1μ film to .5u diamond on balsa, then .25μ and finally .1μ. And incidentally the .3μ film is infamous for delivering an edge that is not very comfortable to shave with.

 

[Jasper J.]

NO. Read my lips. 1μ is a little finer than a 12k Naniwa. I frequently use both so I know. THe Shapton 16k is equivalent to .92μ. Printed right on the stone. See Sharpening Stones: Micron & Grit | - https://blog.fendrihan.com/2019/03/sharpening-stones-micron-grit/

Abrasives in Micron Scale – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener - https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/forums/topic/abrasives-in-micron-scale/ for one of many charts found online. As you can see there are dozens of grit scales.

THis chart is commonly referenced by razor honers.
View attachment 1260409

Micron to Grit Conversion Calculator

Micron to grit calculator to convert grit to micron size. Easily convert grit to micron and micron to grit.

www.bestsharpeningstones.com

THat calculator says 1μ equals 22k grit.

Last but not least, check this page out. THere is a direct conversion chart between lapping film μ rating and grit.

How to Use Lapping Film for Sharpening

Learn how to sharpen using lapping film and get a sharpener edge on your knives and tools than you ever imagined. Images and video included.

www.bestsharpeningstones.com

THat's the commonly accepted grit size of lapping films. You can call it the way you like. THis is how we call it here. I won't argue about it. If you want to disagree then feel free to do so but this is the way it is.
View attachment 1260410
BTW, diamond paste at .1μ is regarded to be about 200,000 grit.

Yes, stop at 1μ film. The .3μ film is totally redundant because you will be going from 1μ film to .5u diamond on balsa, then .25μ and finally .1μ. And incidentally the .3μ film is infamous for delivering an edge that is not very comfortable to shave with.

Wow! Great! thank you very much!

 

[Slash McCoy]

Another thing. 5μ is almost never used for razors. Several years ago it was determined that the 3M 5μ film slurried off its abrasive layer quickly, resulting in slurry effect honing and also cost-inefficient economics because the 5μ wore out quickly. The jump from 9μ to 3μ was found to be manageable and so most razor honers who use film switched to the 9/3/1μ progression. You can use 15u quite successfully to set the bevel. For heavy lifting you can go 60/30/15/9/3/1μ, or you can substitute sandpaper for the first stage or two. Or you can do edge repair and coarse bevel setting on well lapped stones, and then run the progression from 9u onward. Of course only the 1μ film is needed for a simple touchup to a razor that was recently sharp but has grown dull due to normal use.

.3u as I said is notorious for harsh feeling edges. This can be partially mitigated with skilled and insightful use of picopaper but mostly we use the three stage balsa progression as per the pasted balsa thread.

 

[triggerone]

I have used the .3 micron without any problems. I use a very light touch and only use 8 to 10 laps. Afterwards, I crox, linen and leather strop. My razors are sharp and nice for my tastes. Admittedly, they edges may not be as smooth as a Jnat or coticule, but I am happy with my edges.

 

[Biglo13]

Another thing. 5μ is almost never used for razors. Several years ago it was determined that the 3M 5μ film slurried off its abrasive layer quickly, resulting in slurry effect honing and also cost-inefficient economics because the 5μ wore out quickly. The jump from 9μ to 3μ was found to be manageable and so most razor honers who use film switched to the 9/3/1μ progression. You can use 15u quite successfully to set the bevel. For heavy lifting you can go 60/30/15/9/3/1μ, or you can substitute sandpaper for the first stage or two. Or you can do edge repair and coarse bevel setting on well lapped stones, and then run the progression from 9u onward. Of course only the 1μ film is needed for a simple touchup to a razor that was recently sharp but has grown dull due to normal use.

.3u as I said is notorious for harsh feeling edges. This can be partially mitigated with skilled and insightful use of picopaper but mostly we use the three stage balsa progression as per the pasted balsa thread.

I got have sheets of 5u from a friend. Not 3m brand anlo bought some 5u from another manufacturer. neither has any of the negative attributes. I like the 5u extra time here I feel improves the edge and honing process. Curious if 3m has fixed issues.

 

[Jasper J.]

I got have sheets of 5u from a friend. Not 3m brand anlo bought some 5u from another manufacturer. neither has any of the negative attributes. I like the 5u extra time here I feel improves the edge and honing process. Curious if 3m has fixed issues.

I used 3M 261x today, the performance of 5u is the same as 3u 1u, no problem.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I got have sheets of 5u from a friend. Not 3m brand anlo bought some 5u from another manufacturer. neither has any of the negative attributes. I like the 5u extra time here I feel improves the edge and honing process. Curious if 3m has fixed issues.

From personal experience I wouldn't know. Been going 9/3/1 for a long time, and haven't bought 5u in at least 10 years. But I see someone else has chimed in and anyway if you have 5u you may as well try it out. Money gone. Film di yah.

 

[Biglo13]

i don’t see

From personal experience I wouldn't know. Been going 9/3/1 for a long time, and haven't bought 5u in at least 10 years. But I see someone else has chimed in and anyway if you have 5u you may as well try it out. Money gone. Film di yah.

i don’t se the previous issues on 5u on 2 films i’m using. i kept the 4k ish / 5u in the mix because it was suggested to me by some OG’s on stones. i find extra time at that range fixes many issues and expedites upward progression.

 

[James9000]

Another thing. 5μ is almost never used for razors. Several years ago it was determined that the 3M 5μ film slurried off its abrasive layer quickly, resulting in slurry effect honing and also cost-inefficient economics because the 5μ wore out quickly. The jump from 9μ to 3μ was found to be manageable and so most razor honers who use film switched to the 9/3/1μ progression. You can use 15u quite successfully to set the bevel. For heavy lifting you can go 60/30/15/9/3/1μ, or you can substitute sandpaper for the first stage or two. Or you can do edge repair and coarse bevel setting on well lapped stones, and then run the progression from 9u onward. Of course only the 1μ film is needed for a simple touchup to a razor that was recently sharp but has grown dull due to normal use.

.3u as I said is notorious for harsh feeling edges. This can be partially mitigated with skilled and insightful use of picopaper but mostly we use the three stage balsa progression as per the pasted balsa thread.

Can I clarify, are you using Diamond lapping film or Aluminium Oxide film, trying to work out what to get. thanks

 

[Slash McCoy]

Can I clarify, are you using Diamond lapping film or Aluminium Oxide film, trying to work out what to get. thanks

Everyone uses AlOx film. Diamond costs too much and it lasts longer, but not long enough to be worth the money, and it is practically impossible to get in full size sheets. I use type 26M from nanolaptech.com or 261X type from 3M.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Just an hour ago I took delivery of a pack of that film in 30u grit. It has sort of a cheesy papery feel to it. Definitely not 3M quality there. You could be onto something; maybe that brand does suck. Sometime in the next few days I will give it a go. All my other film is 3M, Nanolaptech, or ThorLabs.

I was finally convinced to try some PSA and I got some 1u in the other day and stuck a piece on a spare plate. I will be testing that, too. A PSA /Non PSA shootout, complete with microscope pics. Maybe my almost decade long rant against sticky film was misplaced. I will say this, though. It is a lot easier to apply regular film than PSA film.

So, total noob here, and first post. I had made it through about page 120 of the thread when I ordered a multipack of the films from Taylor Tools (via Amazon), and finally finished the whole thread today when I saw this post. So I'm hoping it doesn't suck too bad, I guess I'll find out Friday. However, the listing on their website specifies that it's 3M product. Maybe this wasn't always the case?

Anyway, I am excited to try the film progression. Despite not really knowing what I'm doing, I've managed to get acceptable (to me) edges on 4 razors using cheap synthetics and finishing on an ILR. By acceptable I mean very comfortable WTG and decent ATG except for my chin. 3 of those razors were antique store finds in various states of disrepair. The other was my grandfather's which I've been using for a few years but finally needed some work, which is what got me into learning how to hone. So for these four I'm going to just do a 3u and 1u plus picopaper and see if I can dial it in. I have another antique store find that I haven't touched yet so I'll try to take that from bevel set to finish.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Update. Got my films from Taylor. They seem to be good quality. I picked up a 4/8 Erik Anton Berg at the antique store today and took it from 12u to .3 over pico paper. It was positively mowing down arm hair at 1/4" after stropping on leather. My other test is a faux shave test. Wet blade and go with the grain on the cheek with a few short strokes with no other prep. It passed very comfortably.

I probably won't actually shave until tomorrow but I anticipate it will be very nice. I can see how this is basically foolproof if you get the bevel set properly. I actually had another razor that I wanted to hone (an older Gradwell) but discovered a pit near the edge that's going to require some coarser grit and time to get past. So I decided to save it for another day.

Once I get my other razors tuned up on film I will decide whether I want to venture into The Method. Though, I can see being satisfied with a 1u edge over paper.

 

[Staggers and Jags]

could you lay the film on a mirror touse if you dont have access toa slab ofmarble?

 

[Darth Scandalous]

could you lay the film on a mirror touse if you dont have access toa slab ofmarble?

You want to be able to hone in hand. I know the general recommendation is acrylic from TAP plastics. I picked up a few 3x12 glass subway tiles from Lowes. I used one for the film and the other 3 to mount my balsa strops on. It's a little thin but you can hold it in hand easy enough, just keep your fingers curled under so they stay attached. They were less than $3 a piece and flatter than marble, at least according to my straightedge.

 

[Staggers and Jags]

what doyou mean by hone in hand?

 

[Darth Scandalous]

You hold the hone in your hand. As opposed to bench honing where you'd have the hone on a flat stable surface. @Slash McCoy has written about it at length. The idea being that it equalizes the pressure between the hone and the razor and avoids a lot of the pitfalls that come up when an inexperienced honer hones on a workbench.

 

[Baz4262]

Well after a false start, (I got fooled by the amazon 'polishing paper' thing) I had to order the PVA backed proper film one (Amazon doesn't have the nonbacked one listed for me). I did order some from Ali express also. Had some acrylic cut to size for all sheet grades. Stick and forget.
I have a golden dollar waiting for some film to arrive to start to cut my teeth in the art of honing.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Well after a false start, (I got fooled by the amazon 'polishing paper' thing) I had to order the PVA backed proper film one (Amazon doesn't have the nonbacked one listed for me). I did order some from Ali express also. Had some acrylic cut to size for all sheet grades. Stick and forget.
I have a golden dollar waiting for some film to arrive to start to cut my teeth in the art of honing.

You will probably regret getting the sticky back film, but it will work.

Especially for a Gold Dollar, I would begin the bevel setting process on a coarse stone or on sandpaper carefully glued to a plate. A lot of steel typically has to come off of a new GD before the bevel is properly set, and that would burn up a lot of your bevel setting film. In fact, you could start now on setting tthe bevel. I recommend beginning with 320 grit red resin type wet/dry paper. Then go 600 and then 1000, and then your films. If you can't find the resin type sandpaper in 1k grit, ordinary automotive type sandpaper will work fine for that stage. For razors that are more refined than a GD, begin with the 1k sandpaper, or the 600 grit if there are chips or the bevel has never been set before. The 320 scratches take a lot of work to remove and that's more steel removed. Absolutely do not use tape on a GD. Thinning the spine on a GD is not a bad thing, it is a good thing, so wail away at that spine.

Read the thread Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method | Badger & Blade end to end. It will prevent a lot of frustration.