Why Hone Edge Leading?

[RayClem]

TBH, I don’t recall anything fundamental changing towards spine leading coming out of “this” conversation back when it was going on with Mr. Carter. And i think everyone was watching it unfold given the players. There was lots of discussion that you can go back and reread.

It’s been too long for me to recall the follow-up back and forth that went on.

There are some interesting things you can learn from Mr. Carter. For one, he talks about using newsprint for stropping. That is certainly worth knowing if you get caught without a leather strop. However, he is more of a knife-smith than a razor- smith. Also he likes to do stunts like shaving with a sharpened tablespoon or axe. I would not want to try shaving with one of his edges.

His methods are highly controversal in the shaving community. I am not saying you should avoid his videos, but I am saying you need to keep them in perspective when viewing them. If his methods work for you, great! However, if they do not work, do not think you are doing something wrong.

 

[global_dev]

yeah, I'm trying to stay out of any new drama, but letting OP know that there was actual discourse back in a couple years ago.

 

[IMightBeWrong]

I enjoy using JNAT and Tomo slurry. I actually use Murray Carter’s methods for my knives and agree with them. The difference for razors is comfort. Edge leading strokes do push the edge into stone particulates, however these same particulates help flatten any peaks and valleys you would see in the edge under magnification for a more consistently straight edge at the apex which is more gentle and comfortable on the skin. This happens very quickly with a fine Tomo Nagura slurry. A lot of people like their edge finished with a light slurry but I personally like to finish on a plain stone with water, and in the final polishing process I like do do just a few spine leading laps followed by a final edge leading lap at the very finish. Just a personal touch to hypothetically get the best of both worlds.

 

[MO1]

Mr.Carter does not like hanging strops, because it rounds off the edge? He demonstrates that by draging a candles "edge" over his belt? Come on.
Then he moves on to a chrox plastered paddle strop? That would remove the burr/fin from the edge trailing strokes indeed and get a shaveable edge, sure. But I bet that will have a way more rounding effect on the edge than a plain hanging leather strop.
Anyone new should keep a very open mind to the contents of that video.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A compressible substrate rounds the edge. Just as present on a paddle strop as on a taut hanging strop. Yes you can increase the effect by using a slack hanging strop, but nothing says you have to.

 

[eKretz]

It may be interesting to note that just about every razor blade manufacturer intentionally produces a convex or "rounded off" edge on their blades. If you dig through old razor blade and razor blade grinding machine patents it is fairly prevalent. This has a couple benefits, apparently producing a somewhat more comfortable shave as one of them according to the patents I've read. They can be somewhat difficult to find unless you dig and read for a while, as many of the companies consider this to be trade secret type of information.

 

[alx gilmore]

It may be interesting to note that just about every razor blade manufacturer intentionally produces a convex or "rounded off" edge on their blades. If you dig through old razor blade and razor blade grinding machine patents it is fairly prevalent. This has a couple benefits, apparently producing a somewhat more comfortable shave as one of them according to the patents I've read. They can be somewhat difficult to find unless you dig and read for a while, as many of the companies consider this to be trade secret type of information.

I think that from what I have read, most razors directly from the mfg. are often not shave ready. On top of that the
few videos I have seen of the official "razor finisher" on the razor line, he/she works pretty fast and from my perspective handles the edges rather crudely. Also the patents are for machinery, not hand skilled work.

In Murry Carter's videos I notice that his spine leading strokes on his finest finishing stone are referred to as he calls them "stropping strokes". I think that is a very accurate and universal notion, stropping on the stone or stropping on the strop. It is the motion of spine leading. I never strop with edge leading, only spine leading. Can you imagine edge leading palm stropping. Murry for sharpening uses (we call it honing); circular, edge and spine leading. I myself think any directionional stroke in the sharpening phase is valid for western knives, and I think that spine leading for stropping strokes is valid in all cases for razors or knives.

I would like to try and shave with one of Carter's picnic table spoon edges, or from his knife edges. I might have to buy a ticket to get the chance to though. My guru for razors is Tim Zowada, he uses edge leading for profile and finishing stone work, and like me and most people here a stropping stroke on leather for finishing. So from now on I am going to refer to spine leading strokes, whether on stone, linen, leather or palm as stropping direction or stropping strokes.

Best to all,

Alx

 

[ajduplessis]

What is more concerning for me is the steep angle he shaves at.

 

[eKretz]

Alex, the manufacturers I'm referring to are those that manufacture blades ready for use like Feather, Gillette, etc. They have some fairly specialized gadgets to do so.

I am in total agreement with you on the straight razors - I have never received one from new that was in what I'd consider acceptable shape to be called "shave ready." I would imagine the case is a bit different with a custom made razor, but I've never had the pleasure of purchasing one of those.

 

[Hunter Bock]

When I start my honing process, I generally start with circles. That means some of the honing is edge leading, some is edge trailing and some is diagonal or sideways. I might do a dozen circles on one side and then a dozen circles on the other. If setting a bevel from scratch, I might start with 50 circles on each side. Then I will repeat the process with every fewer circles on each side. However, as I near the end point for that particular hone, I then use diagonal, edge leading x-strokes to that the scratches or stria left by that stone will be parallel. That makes it easier to inspect the edge under a loupe or microscope. Then moving on to the next hone, I repeat the process, starting with circles and ending with x-strokes. Once I get to my finishing hone, there will be fewer circles and more x-strokes, ever decreasing in pressure until I get the edge I want.

However, that is my procedure. Everyone develops their own system. If you look at honing videos on YouTube, you will see a lot of different ways to do it. Ultimately, you have to figure out what works best for you with your razors, your hones and your preferences for edge quality.

Interesting. I thought circles were for bevel setting only. Would you do high end (8K+) touch up honing in circles?

 

[Proinsias]

I tend towards Ray's method but Emmanuel's coticule method may be of interest:

 

[Hunter Bock]

I tend towards Ray's method but Emmanuel's coticule method may be of interest:

Not clear on the stone he was using -- sure did not look like bevel setting.

I can conclude that circular honing is viable with higher grits?

 

[global_dev]

His bevel was likely already set, he probably had dulled it on glass or something like that. In fact, i think the comments on that vid say the same.

he says the name of the coticule vein at 23s. La Veinette

 

[MO1]

Not clear on the stone he was using -- sure did not look like bevel setting.

I can conclude that circular honing is viable with higher grits?

Circles speeds the process up. You can do it on higher grits depending on what needs to be done. Got scratches that are hard to get rid off? Circles take care of that pretty good. Lightly dulled edge for a bevel "reset"? Circles works good.
Finishing strokes to get rid off any trace of fin edge and squeeze that last bit of keenness out? Nah, X strokes would be the best for that, unless you want a fin edge.

 

[RayClem]

Interesting. I thought circles were for bevel setting only. Would you do high end (8K+) touch up honing in circles?

For me 8K, is only the middle range of my honing progression. I have 12K (Naniwa and naturals, 16K Shapton, and Suehiro G20K. After than I use 0.5, 0.25 and 0.1 micron CBN pasted strops to further refine the edge. Thus, I would do circles on the 8K, but might not do so on my finishing hone.

 

[Gamma]

Why not hone edge leading?

The thing about honing is, the only thing that really matters is whether or not someone is satisfied with their end results.
If someone likes their edge, all is well. If they sell edges, then I guess the people buying them should like them also. But that’s another story.
Some people don’t really have solid eference points yet though, and that too is yet another totally different story.

But, in general, how anyone gets ‘there’ – is their business.
As for spine leading, meh… The topic is old, it’s been discussed ad nauseam. All too often it is pulled out of a closet full of skeltions in an attempt to polarize the community. Yawn.

Verhoeven references his findings with this subject in that famous paper. His findings sounded logical to me. There was at least one college paper with a similar outlook also.

I’ve spent a lot of time hovering over my scope – looking at burrs and fins from ½ strokes, spine leading strokes, and edge leading work pushed to intentionally cause such distractions. When I say a lot of time, I really do mean way way way too much time.

Bottom line, I see more grief on spine leading edges. Conversely, I see cleaner results with edge leading. I found burr removal following edge-leading work easier to ‘fix’ than the same artifacts left over from spine leading work. Edges worked up on Coticule seem to be immune to burr buildup, but I still see cleaner Coti edges when using edge-leading strokes. Most of this overview relates to early and mid-range efforts. If I am finishing on a synth, I am looking at 10-20 very light passes. I won’t see a burr develop from that. But extensive work on a 3k is another story entirely. I can create a foil edge on Jnat slurry, though… so there’s that to factor in.

If I hone a blade spine-leading, and I create a false edge, and then I fix it, will that edge be as good as one done with edge-leading strokes that doesn’t need ‘fixing’?
It’s rhetorical, there is no one single absolute answer and to be honest, who cares?

So that’s one battery of thinking behind my affinity for edge leading work. Another reason is that it feels normal to me. I learned to sharpen a knife that way, so it’s hard-wired in my head. The feelings, actions and sensations are familiar, which helps with consistency. For peace of mind, once I am at the point where the bevel is just about finalized, and from that point forward, I very much want the swarf to go behind the edge. It makes sense.

Does any of that matter? To me, for my work yes. It’s my choice based on what I’ve experienced and learned.

I use x-strokes almost exclusively. Once in a while I’ll use ½ strokes to remove a lot of material quickly, but I will usually interject x-strokes to keep burrs at bay. I don’t use circles unless I am bored and or I forget that I don’t like honing with circles. I want orderly striations on the bevel because I have found that to work better for me.
I have found incremental decreases in abrasive particle size to be better than large jumps; in other words, I would normally work with 1k, 3k, 5k, before a shorter 1k, 5k progression. FWIW, most of the principals referenced above are based on my realization that those practices create cleaner edges for me here in my house.

Stropping, yes – it burnishes the bevel and edge. Yes, it will add curvature to the bevel and into the apex. Yes, yes yes. It happens and that’s one difference between a fresh edge done correctly and one that’s ‘broken in’. The lifespan of a razors edge is a teeter-totter ballet of sorts.
Yes, people will tend to add more slack with a hanging strop. It happens, and no one dies. Paddle strops are 'stiffer' and with less possible slack there is less possible curvature. I dont' think somene with a paddle strop is neccessarily going to be shaving better due to this though. If somene wants to make a spread sheet and start tallying subjective rhetoric, fine by me but I think counting sand grains in the parking lot would yleld more useful information.

If someone likes a 1k, 6k, Crox edge – I’m happy they’re happy. But I am happier I don’t have to shave with their edges. It’s not a matter of what ‘works’ – lots of things ‘work’. It’s not a matter or what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – if it works it works. For me it becomes a matter of “what I like best”. It’s also a matter of what I don’t like and some things that other like, I don’t. I am not ‘wrong’ for not liking what someone else likes or liking what someone else does not like.
What someone else likes best has zero impact on my shaving. Zero. Less than zero actually.

Someone else may feel/think differently about all of that. Honestly, at this point, I am beyond giving a rats you know what about how anyone feels about about what I think.

Can I hone spine leading and shave? Of course.
Will my edges be better if I hone edge leading? Yes.
Will someone else’s edges be better if they hone edge leading? don't know, don't care.
But none of that is the point.
Which way is best? – also so very much not the point.
Which way anyone wants or chooses to hone, is totally up to them.
And that’s the point.

TL,DR;
Why hone edge leading?
Because that's what works best for me.

 

[kelbro]

Why hone edge leading?
Because that's what works best for me.

Yep. Same here. Lots of experimenting and I keep coming back to it.

 

[Alum of Potash]

With certain aggressive hones/stones that would reek havoc on straight razors rather than knives, I have been counseled by some of our resident experts to use a spine-leading approach to lessen aggressiveness. But otherwise, I am of the opinion that an edge-leading approach would be preferable in seeking to create a fresh edge, the material being moved away from the edge to the spine. That said, I tend to use half-laps in the reshaping and bevel-setting stages, moving to edge-leading in the final stages; and even with the finishing stones, I tend to introduce a few stray spine-leading passes from time to time to knock off any possible burr or wire edge. Final laps on a strop, pasted or not, to refine or restore the edge as needed, are definitely spine-leading for the obvious reason that they do not repair themselves when cut like living plant or animal tissue.

 

[ajduplessis]

Hate circles

 

[RayClem]

Hate circles

Circles do work, but if you choose to avoid them, that is your choice.